SuzukiSavage.com - Print Page

SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl
General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Dead horn
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1443174251

Message started by chzeckmate on 09/25/15 at 02:44:11

Title: Dead horn
Post by chzeckmate on 09/25/15 at 02:44:11

So, guy in an overpriced suit, driving a ridiculously large SUV decided he needed to answer a text while coming down the opposing side of the road near my home. He came fully into my lane because he was so intently focussed on his messaging. As he began to wander into my lane I applied both the brake and horn in equal measure. A couple of seconds of blaring the horn and suddenly my horn went silent. Fortunately, the guy looked up just in time to swerve back into his own lane. All is well now, except for the horn. So...I know I can get out the multimeter and poke around and find the solution myself, but I thought I'd ask if anyone might have any insight into it. Thoughts?

Title: Re: Dead horn
Post by youzguyz on 09/25/15 at 03:15:25

The horn is a bit of an odd duck.
It is always "hot" (with key on), and a ground gets applied through the horn switch to make it work.
The black wire w/ red stripe is the "always hot".
The black wire w/ blue stripe goes to the switch.
You can test the horn by taking the blue stripe wire off the horn, then shorting that horn terminal to ground.
If it works, the problem is in the switch.
If it doesn't, the problem is in the horn.

Title: Re: Dead horn
Post by verslagen1 on 09/25/15 at 07:49:31

16292F2835321A5C0 wrote:

So, guy in an overpriced suit, driving a ridiculously large SUV decided he needed to answer a text while coming down the opposing side of the road near my home...

In this situation, the horn is useless. Less than useless as it gives you a false impression that you're alerting the suit to your presence.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1360097806/0#0

Title: Re: Dead horn
Post by chzeckmate on 09/25/15 at 08:45:39

I saw this at the harbor freight by my house http://www.harborfreight.com/automotive-motorcycle/horns/2-piece-12-volt-electric-horn-set-99911.html?utm_referrer=direct%2Fnot%20provided

The price is hard to beat...Any thoughts on this?

Title: Re: Dead horn
Post by Tocsik on 09/25/15 at 09:09:10

You'll need to run a relay from the battery with an inline fuse. I installed FIAMM El Grande's on my bike and love 'em. Those HF's look similar but I can't speak to the quality.

Title: Re: Dead horn
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/25/15 at 13:16:14

I swiped the horns and relay off a junk Taurus, (is that redundant?)
and put them on a little Honda civic. A grown up sound helps. Depending on your needs, looks, economy, ease of installation, there are tons of ways to go at it. Someone recently did a good looking ,dual horn install. I don't know where the thread is.Sorry..
And sometimes a big ball bearing is better than a horn.
I'm still trying to decide if I woulda turned around and followed him and explained to him what kinda bind he put me in . Glad he didn't mash you..

Title: Re: Dead horn
Post by chzeckmate on 09/25/15 at 13:43:31

584741465B5C6D5D6D55474B00320 wrote:

I'm still trying to decide if I woulda turned around and followed him and explained to him what kinda bind he put me in . Glad he didn't mash you..

I considered it.

50465C534E5C5053290 wrote:

Thanks for this. I'm working day and night these days, but I'll try to get to it in the wee hours tomorrow morning. I'll post a report.

0B303C2C36345F0 wrote:

You'll need to run a relay from the battery with an inline fuse. I installed FIAMM El Grande's on my bike and love 'em. Those HF's look similar but I can't speak to the quality.

I'm going to go ahead and get the HF set and see how it goes. If it's no good then $10 is a small price to pay to find out. I'll post an install thread when I do it.

Title: Re: Dead horn
Post by chzeckmate on 10/14/15 at 00:03:32

I thought I'd circle back on this to let you guys know that it was the horn that was bad. The wiring and switch were fine so I just slapped on one of the old horns I had lying around and it's good enough for the time being. When I get a little free time I'm going to swap out for a dual air horn setup. I'll post when I do it.

Thanks @youzguyz...Your input surely saved me some time messing with the multimeter. Cheers!

Title: Re: Dead horn
Post by Tocsik on 10/14/15 at 11:24:06

203F393E23241525152D3F33784A0 wrote:

... Someone recently did a good looking ,dual horn install. I don't know where the thread is.Sorry..
...

Not sure if that was me but here's the thread with some pics of my FIAMM El Grande horns. They're 20 bucks on Slamazon if the HF's don't hold up.
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1436647368/7#7

Title: Re: Dead horn
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/14/15 at 12:16:09

http://suzukisavage.com/yabb2.2/Attachments/Right_Horn.jpg

That's the one. But I do believe they're upside down. You're the guinea pig. And the price of being wrong, IF you are, is low.

That didn't work..

Title: Re: Dead horn
Post by Tocsik on 10/14/15 at 12:27:51

Yeah, not sure which direction is "correct". I looked at some pics from other installs online and saw a range of possibilities.
I have mine mounted as they are to drain out any water that may get inside.

czechmate - let us know how the HF horns work out for you. You going to do an inline fuse and relay?

Title: Re: Dead horn
Post by chzeckmate on 10/14/15 at 12:30:23

I saw your thread. Your setup sounds good and looks nice too. I've done this before on some of my other bikes, hence the surplus horns lying around. I'm curious about the relay. On my previous installs I didn't install the included relay, I only installed an inline fuse on the negative wire and they worked just fine. Please help me understand why you think the relay is needed. In other applications I've used relays to act as a switch where I wanted to prevent the main switch from arcing and possibly burning out, but this doesn't seem to be an issue on the horn switch on the Savage (or my other bikes) since the switch only closes the positive connection. It seemed like having an inline fuse on the negative wire would prevent burning out the main switch. I could be wrong. If I am, let me know...This is fascinating stuff.

Title: Re: Dead horn
Post by Tocsik on 10/14/15 at 13:23:07

I did the relay for exactly the reason you stated and from reading about the horn switch here on the forum. Didn't want to burn out my horn switch. The El Grande's actually come with their own relay but I put in a Bosch relay since they are known to be high quality and only cost a few bucks. The dual horn setup draws more current than stock and the relay prevents that current from going through the switch. If the Savage switch closes the positive connection, doesn't that mean all of the current is flowing through the switch? I'm no expert so relied on the advice of the group.

Title: Re: Dead horn
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/14/15 at 17:34:35

The switch only carries the current to actuate the relay. The small electromagnetic coil. When you push the button, the coil energizes, creating an electromagnet, pulling the heavy contacts together, and They carry the horn current. It's a smaller version of the starter solenoid, same principle.
There's nothing wrong with a work bench mock up. I did one on the Taurus radiator fan I mounted up behind the seat on the backhoe. Let it run fifteen minutes and checked everything to see if anything got hot.
But, in your case, all you need is to identify the actuating connections and the controlled connections. If the relay has four connections, then two of them fire the coil , closing the other two. If six, then hot and ground are controlled. You can wire it however you like. You can ground the horn anywhere and just run the hot wire through the relay. If only a hot wire comes out of the switch and goes to the horn, which grounds to the frame, then, you'll need to create a ground from the frame to go to the control end, so when you push the but on the coil will energize and then when that happens, the heavy contacts close. If you want to just run power through the relay, that's okay. Just tap into a heAvy enough wire to carry the load, run one to the horn, ground horn to frame.

Title: Re: Dead horn
Post by chzeckmate on 10/15/15 at 02:46:59

I totally get how relays work. My thing is, I want to know why I would use one. I can't see the need for it in this application. The stock horn switch carries the same current as the relay will carry. I can see how using the relay might be useful if I were going to use heavier gauge wire for the new the horns or if I were going to use a capacitor, but I don't see any reason to use a heavier gauge or a capacitor. The horns aren't going to get steady use so no need for heavy gauge and the battery is sufficient to power the horns so no need for a capacitor. I'm inclined not to use the relay unless there's a good reason to use it, which is really what I'm asking.

Title: Re: Dead horn
Post by Steve H on 10/15/15 at 04:00:51

If you go with a double horn setup, you'll be pulling at least twice as much current as the circuit is designed to handle. It may hinder the longevity of the horn button running that much current through it.

Even a single replacement horn, unless a motorcycle horn, will probably take a good bit more current.

That's the reason for the relay. It's to make sure you don't overload the factory circuit.

Title: Re: Dead horn
Post by chzeckmate on 10/15/15 at 07:36:59

I'm not so sure about that. Most of the dual snail horns I've used come with a 15 or 20 amp fuse. That would seem to indicate that they aren't going to draw more than the factory wiring is capable of handling.

Title: Re: Dead horn
Post by Tocsik on 10/15/15 at 08:02:26

I've seen several posts on other forums (both bike and car) where they noticed much more volume from the horns after including the relay.
Just another thing to consider and maybe weight for the argument that the switch may be a bottleneck for power supply.

Title: Re: Dead horn
Post by chzeckmate on 10/15/15 at 08:58:42

Maybe, but our wiring is so simple that I shouldn't expect a bottleneck. I'll bump the horns directly off the battery and compare the volume after I install them without the relay. If there's a noticeable difference I'll add the relay and maybe heavier gauge wire. I'm pretty confident the relay isn't necessary. I mean, if you think about it, I burned out the coil on the stock horn...seems like there's some current there. We'll see. I'll record everything and post when I'm done. This will be fun :)

Title: Re: Dead horn
Post by thumperclone on 10/15/15 at 10:23:16

7A454344595E76300 wrote:

the coil of the relay draws less current than the horn(s)
contacts of the switch are not rated for the higher current draw of dual horns
installing a fuse on the neg of the switch will not keep the points of the switch from failing

Title: Re: Dead horn
Post by chzeckmate on 10/15/15 at 13:04:23

293528302D382F3E313233385D0 wrote:

I understand that the relay draws less current.
As for the contacts of the switch not being rated for the current of the dual horns, I don't think that has been established. I'd like the source where you pulled the specs for the horn switch from if you wouldn't mind sharing that info. I'm assuming that the stock switch is fine considering that the dual horns come with 10, 15, or 20 amp inline fuses respectively. The fact that the switch carries enough current to burn out the stock horn's voice coil is also a good indicator.
I would be installing the inline fuses on the ground of the snail horns. It's understood that putting a fuse on the switch itself would be useless.
I'm very eager to have your source for the specs of the horn switch. Those details would be very enlightening. Please do let us know.

Title: Re: Dead horn
Post by thumperclone on 10/15/15 at 15:10:07

experience
I installed an automobile horn on my bike :-[

Title: Re: Dead horn
Post by chzeckmate on 10/16/15 at 00:21:08

3F233E263B2E39282724252E4B0 wrote:

experience
I installed an automobile horn on my bike :-[

Anecdotes are fascinating, but they aren't data. I'll do the legwork on this and get some real numbers posted for everyone. I've got this on my action item list for next week. I do appreciate the advice though.