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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Clutch issue /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1442542765 Message started by Boogie_with_Stu on 09/17/15 at 19:19:25 |
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Title: Clutch issue Post by Boogie_with_Stu on 09/17/15 at 19:19:25 Before I go tearing into anything and possibly making it worse, I'd like some input please. When I bought my 2003 Savage it had a tad over 4000 miles on it. I drove the bike for about a month, 100 miles a week or so...just late evening cruises to get familiar with it. Never had a shifting problem at all. I took it apart a bit (tank for raptor, seat, regulator re-locate, rear turn signal re-locate, running lights added to the rear...but nothing major) so it sat for a few weeks with only a start-up and idle for 3-5 mins every so often. I changed out the clutch perch because the threaded area was cracked...got a used one off eBay in nice condition (same year as mine). Removed the clutch cable at the perch/lever and never touched the end that goes to the motor side. I got the bike back together and rode it about 50 miles....no issues. Then I changed the oil using Suzuki branded oil. Drove it around the block, then drained it and changed the oil again, this time using Rotella T. Changed the filter at the same time. Oil level is a tad high on the little window but you can still see a bit of daylight above the oil. I took it for a 30 mile trip yesterday and noticed I was having trouble with the gears. Idle was a bit high, and she "clunked" into first at a standstill, and I had trouble going from 1st to second (it kept going into neutral instead of 2nd). Once the bike is moving she shifts fine. I lowered the idle a bit to see if perhaps that was why she was clunking into first when standing still....and it reduced the "ka-chunk" sound a bit but not very much. I used the adjustment at the perch to try and find a spot that let it drop into first cleanly and cant find it. Went from all the way out, to all the way in and no real change. I did notice that if I give a little push with my feet that she goes into 1st much easier. It is certainly possible that I stretched the clutch cable when changing out the perch. So....what did I do wrong this time? |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by Dave on 09/18/15 at 03:41:45 Adjust the cable so that there is just a tad of "slack" or free play when you pull on the lever......before you feel the tension on the lever as the springs are being engaged. It is not uncommon for a clunk to occur the first time you click it into gear when the engine is cold - but once underway it should shift fine when properly adjusted. |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by JutMan on 09/18/15 at 11:27:31 Not to hijack, but how often does the clutch level itself need replaced, mine feels a bit wiggly. |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by verslagen1 on 09/18/15 at 12:03:19 162928113D325C0 wrote:
It's not a regular item that wears out. keep your cable lubricated. keep your lever lubed too. I imagine the pivot point could be sleeved. |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by Boogie_with_Stu on 09/18/15 at 12:41:33 576869507C731D0 wrote:
If you are referring to the LEVER (level didnt quite make sense), I had this same issue. The brake lever was nice and snug, moved very freely but didnt flop around at all. The clutch lever on the other hand, had almost 1/4" worth of up and down play at the ball on the end of the lever and it was making me nuts. I tried 3 different used levers and they were all loose, no matter how much I tightened the screw. I measured the opening in the clutch perch and then measured the lever area that slips into it...and found that there was over 0.030" worth of wiggle room. The only explanation I can come up with is that the aluminium clutch perch fatigues over time and that opening either wears out a bit or "bends" open. This can also happen if the bike is dropped (or even just falls over) and the clutch lever takes a bit of a sideways impact. I used some 0.020" shim stock and made a washer to pick up some of the slack. Lubed it well and put it back together. The free-play or wiggle is gone. Do NOT attempt to either squeeze the opening in a vise or pound on it with a hammer to narrow the opening. You WILL put stress fractures in the casting and/or crack it. |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by youzguyz on 09/18/15 at 12:49:04 392A3D3C232E282A217E4F0 wrote:
It's not a regular item that wears out. keep your cable lubricated. keep your lever lubed too. I imagine the pivot point could be sleeved.[/quote] There is a removable brass sleeve inside the lever that protects the aluminum lever from the steel bolt. Yes, it will wear out (I've done it). Yes, you can buy a new one. Suzuki PN 57623-24B00 #13 in this diagram http://www.ronayers.com/oemparts/a/suz/50d32fc1f8700232d0b3d946/handle-lever |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by Boogie_with_Stu on 09/20/15 at 14:54:01 Back to my clutching issue....sumptin'tain't right. I adjusted the nut on the perch for a bit less than 1/8" of "free play" and rode it again. No difference. It still does not shift cleanly when the bike isnt moving, and it sill goes from 1st to neutral every time unless I really yank up on it with my foot. It used to be that neutral was a bit tough to find on this bike when I first got it. Now, it pops into neutral easy as pie from first at a standstill. Going down, drops into neutral from second (at a standstill or a slow roll) very easily as well. It's almost like the clutch isnt really functioning at all. When I come to a stop, I have to drop into 1st while the bike is still rolling. Sitting at a stop sign in neutral, it will not go into first no matter how many times I push it. I have to give a push-off with my feet in order to get it to drop into 1st gear. I moved the adjustment screw/nut on the perch from all the way out, to all the way in....with little or no difference in ease of shifting. The bike shifts fine once moving, I am assuming because I am getting the added help from synchronizing. I have done nothing at all to the engine/clutch at all except a couple of oil changes. Current oil is Rotella T and sitting at just under the "high" mark on the observation window. I had done an oil change a few weeks ago with Suzuki branded oil from the dealer "oil and filter change kit". I have no idea what kind of oil the previous owner used. The bike had 4,076 miles on her when I got it....and has 4,228 on it now. About the same time as the first oil change, I also replaced the clutch perch with a used one from the same year Savage (2003). I never touched the engine side of the cable. I removed the perch, removed the lever screw and nut, took the lever off and then installed the new perch in reverse order. It IS possible that I stretched the cable. There were a couple times where I was worried about pulling on it in order to get it off (until I realized how much easier it would be if I just unbolted the darn perch). On the engine side, the clutch actuation arm is sitting where the lower edge of the arm lines up perfectly with the lowest slash mark on the engine casing. So.......which way do I want to adjust the cable at the engine in order to solve my problem? Do I want to run the adjustment nut and jam nut DOWN (clockwise) or UP? Is there any other issue that this could be a symptom of? It seemed to start at the same time that I started messing with the oil and replacing the clutch perch ( I didnt do any driving in between to speak of). EDIT: I did some YouTube searches and decided I needed to move the adjustment nut DOWN...so I went out and moved it down about 1/8". Started the bike and tried shifting. Better, but still very clunky. Went another 1/8" inch and took her up to the store...about 12 miles round trip. Its better, but still has the issue going from neutral to 1st when stopped. I dont have a lot of adjustment room left...less than 1/4" I would guess. 2 things: 1- there is no nut on the bottom of the adjustment screw...just the adjustment nut and slightly thinner jam nut on the top. Should there be a nut below? 2- At a standstill, in neutral...difficult to shift into 1st BUT, once I get it into 1st gear, I can sit there and go back and forth from 1st to neutral all day long and it is smooth as butter. If I move the bike ANY distance....even a foot...while in first and then try going to neutral and back to first....it wont go again. I wiggle the clutch lever in and out a little bit or rock the bike and get it into 1st gear...and then dont move the bike at all, she will go back and forth between neutral and first all day. No idea if that symptom helps but it seems odd to me. As always, any insight would be appreciated. |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by KennyG on 09/20/15 at 17:21:04 Stu, I am thinking that the rod connected from the foot shift to the transmission is bent. If you straighten the rod it can be reinforced with a piece of tubing that will slip over the rod. You will have to epoxy the tubing onto the rod for it to work properly. Kenny G |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by oldNslow on 09/20/15 at 17:33:17 Both nuts are supposed to be on top. No nut on the underside. I think Kenny G is right. The rod he's referring to is # 36 on this diagram: http://www.bikebandit.com/oem-parts/2000-suzuki-savage-650-ls650p/o/m147741#sch243426 It's easily bent and, if it's bent even a little it can cause shifting issues. |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by Boogie_with_Stu on 09/20/15 at 18:04:28 The bike was dropped at about 20 mph by the previous owner. Damage seemed limited to a scraped end of the clutch lever, a cracked clutch perch, a bent left front peg and a broken left rear turn signal. Would a bent shift rod also be consistent with a drop like this? |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/20/15 at 19:15:25 Yep.. If the shifter got shoved down,, |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by oldNslow on 09/20/15 at 19:16:12 464B4B434D4109534D504C09575051240 wrote:
Yes. Just dropping a stationary bike over on it's left side is likely to do it. |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by Boogie_with_Stu on 09/20/15 at 20:26:44 Roger that guys. I am assuming that you are suggesting that I straighten and then reinforce it because, once bent....it is likely weakened? I have the dies to thread a piece of steel rod. Would replicating the original be a worse idea than trying to repair the old one? Or are you suggesting that I do the repair in lieu of purchasing a new part. |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/20/15 at 20:30:11 They are cheap. Mark stuff before taking things apart. One end is left hand thread. |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by KennyG on 09/20/15 at 20:46:42 Stu, You could make a much stronger rod than the one from Suzuki, but chances are one end of the rod will be right hand threads and the other end will be left hand threads. Kenny G |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by Boogie_with_Stu on 09/20/15 at 20:47:43 524D4B4C51566757675F4D410A380 wrote:
ah...thanks for the heads up...that's good to know. And yeah, about $9 aint gonna break the bank. First thing tomorrow I will give this a good look, checking all of the aspects of the shifter and linkage. |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by Boogie_with_Stu on 09/22/15 at 16:50:43 So today I jacked up the bike and checked the shift linkage...hoping for an obvious sign to explain my clutch issues. No such luck. The linkage looks brand new. I removed the rod and checked it carefully...it's fine. When I put it all back I did lower the shifter a bit. It was always too high for my tastes. Nothing was loose or worn or bent anywhere. Can someone tell me, if on this particular beast, you should be able to shift into any of the five gears while the engine is running and the bike is standing still? I seem to remember being able to go at least from N to 1st, to 2nd and into 3rd, then back down again with zero issues when I first got the bike. I could also be confusing the Honda with the Savage (havent rode the Nighthawk in a couple weeks...doing a handlebars/controls/cables change). Getting a bit frustrated with this thing to be honest. 4000 miles, any bike ought to run like new. I didnt take the clutch side cover off, did nothing but a couple of oil changes and played with the cable (and today adjusted the shifter linkage). I've also developed a rattle in the tank/speedo area...probably due to messing with the tank mounts when I installed the S40 seat (I used the rubber cork seat riser method). I know the bike is "finicky". I have the idle correct, the right oil in her at the correct fill level, and have adjusted the clutch in every way that the manual calls out. Nada. Still, goes into 1st only if I give the bike a tiny foot-push (or move the clutch lever back and forth about 3/8"sometimes works), and will not go into 2nd from neutral no matter what I do if I'm standing still and idling. Again, once moving she seems to shift clean...both up and down. I'm at a loss. |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by KennyG on 09/22/15 at 17:30:59 Stu, The next time you are going to ride your Savage try breaking the clutch plates loose first. Push the bike backwards while pushing down on the gear shift peg until you feel it engage. Then push the bike forward and let the clutch lever in and out while you push the bike down your driveway. When you are sure the clutch plates have separated push the gear shift back into neutral and start the engine. The gear shift lever should go into first gear with just moderate pressure. Kenny G |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by oldNslow on 09/22/15 at 17:48:41 Quote:
In that case, you may not actually have anything wrong. It isn't unusual for a motorcycle transmission to be reluctant to shift if the wheels are not moving and the gears aren't turning. |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by Dave on 09/22/15 at 18:06:15 No....you won't be able to shift into more than just 1st gear with the bike sitting still, and maybe second. The transmission has teeth what won't line up when the bike is not moving......so if you are having shifting trouble with the bike sitting still - that is normal of any bike. |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/22/15 at 23:46:18 If you just ease the clutch out to the beginning of the friction zone then pull in, and press the shifter which ever way you want. You can shift with it not running. Rock the bike. |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by chzeckmate on 09/23/15 at 02:03:39 Stu, What you're describing is pretty typical stuff. When I first got mine it wanted to go into neutral when shifting up to second a lot. It took me awhile before I got it sorted out. This bike requires a lot of muscle memory compared to other bikes I've owned. I should say that I've never owned a bike that wanted to shift through all the gears while stationary. A bit of clutch work and rocking it is how I've always done that. To make shifting into second easier for now, I would recommend slightly reducing rpm just before the upshift. When I say slightly, I mean very slight. You'll get to where you do it without thinking about it and it doesn't hinder acceleration at all. It just becomes a slight (very slight) wrist motion. I eventually learned that my bike wants to be shifted into second at a very specific rpm range which is very narrow. I've put 4,000 miles on mine and now I can tell just by feel when I'm there. You'll get there too, but for now try what I mentioned and see how it goes. I might also mention that you probably don't need to worry about the noise shifting from neutral to first. You should be able to tell by feel if there's really a problem. This setup is really basic. There's going to be some noise shifting from neutral to first. That's just the nature of the beast. Earbuds make the world a better place when riding the LS650. |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by Boogie_with_Stu on 09/23/15 at 14:05:58 Earbuds make the world a better place when riding the LS650. OMG, what kind of 14th century monster did I buy? ;D What Kenny said sounds about right....it feels like the clutch isnt breaking loose. I dont know what I could have done to it to cause it to act that way. It didnt give me this problem before I changed the clutch perch/removed clutch cable, and did the 2 oil changes in quick succession. When I do what Kenny suggested I can shift quite easily into first. The idea that I would have to do that every time I ride is not compatible with my idea of bike ownership. Possible that the previous owner used a synth oil and the bike is just "getting used to" the Rotella T? |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by KennyG on 09/23/15 at 17:26:38 Stu, Both of my current rides have wet clutches. If I don't break the clutch loose on either bike before I start the engine I get a lot of grinding noises from the transmission when I attempt to put the bike in gear. On the Buell I have had riders tell me that all Sportster transmissions grind when they are put in gear. Mine doesn't grind because I break the clutch loose before I ride. I usually break the clutch loose while coasting down the driveway and it doesn't add any time to my getting going in the morning. Kenny G |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/23/15 at 18:19:03 Just sit on it, get it in neutral, move it a coupla inches,, See how that acts,, if it's not enough, next time, get more involved. |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by Boogie_with_Stu on 09/25/15 at 10:18:21 Thanks Kenny...luckilly I have a 130 ft long driveway with a downward slope ;D 495650574A4D7C4C7C44565A11230 wrote:
Perhaps you'd care to explain the "next time, get more involved" comment? |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/25/15 at 12:18:19 If just moving inches doesn't do it, next time, try more, till you discover the least amount of effort required to accomplish the goal. That may change as the weather cools. I never had the problem, just fired up in neutral and dropped in first. Yeah, there was a bit of clash, but those gears are plenty tough. All they are fighting is their own momentum and the shear strength of the oil stuck in the clutch. If it's warmed up and you're sitting in neutral at a light and holding the clutch lever in, the gears can stop and it won't be easy to get in gear if they stop where they clash, just ease out to about where you would feel the clutch start to pull away from a stop, pull back in, drop in gear. I've run a bike through all the gears sitting still, just let out on the lever enough to just touch the beginning of the friction zone. I stalled in traffic in fifth gear, unfunny , stupid moment, but it can be done and quickly. The lever adjustment, lowering it, good plan, that should make getting second easier. A slightly bent rod will flex on down shift, a serious bend would lower the toe end of the lever and flex some both ways, but a vigorous shift action should get it in. I'd go ride it, like I was drag racing. I mean get after it. Run that dude up in first till the rate of acceleration starts to drop off a little, slap the gas off, grab the clutch and shift it like ya mean it. Might not drop the clutch lever and wring the gas full on, if you Didn't get the shift, don't wanna rap it out, but that Should work. Then play with it, learn the minimum effort. I've shifted to second without the clutch, it's too big of an RPM jump for me to master it and make it smooth, but second and up, the bike will shift, quickl, smoothly and without harm, upshifting and downshifting. It's just a matter of timing and technique. And sometimes, it's just gonna klunk a little dropping into first, |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by Boogie_with_Stu on 09/25/15 at 19:59:21 Roger that Justin...before this 6 day long deluge started yesterday I tried all of your suggestions. The "letting out the clutch lever slightly" or working it back and forth works like a charm. I wasnt expecting to HAVE to do it, but it's nice that it is that easy to correct. Also, pulling in the lever with pressure on the shifter allows me to drop into 1st much easier than if I have the lever pulled all the way in. It was very weird to find that all the way in, the shifter completely refused to drop into first, but letting the lever out a tad...and I mean like 1/2" or less....and it drops in clean. It made me think I had "over adjusted" the clutch and it wasnt in the sweet spot with the adjustment both on the perch and the engine side. I wasted a week trying to tweak a clutch cable that wasnt in need of tweeking ( but I am glad to have moved the shifter head a bit lower...it helps immensely. I wear "soft" boots as opposed to steel toe or even hard leather pull ons). Once again, thanks all for the help and the inspiration (and for talking to me in ittty bitty tiny words so I could "get it"). The Honda Nighthawk 250 definitely spoiled me rotten. Starts effortlessly, idles perfectly, shifts as clean and easy as any bike I have ever been on, and can be thrown around any turn as easy as a bicycle. Do I wish the savage was as "friendly" as the Honda? Sure, but they have completely different personalities. If the Honda is a blonde, the Savage is definitely a redhead. |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/25/15 at 20:17:51 In time you'll tame the beast. It'll do what you want, when you want. It's not broken or bad, you're just not speaking its language yet. |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by Dave on 09/26/15 at 04:24:16 Most likely what you are experiencing is a symptom of your change from a 10W-30 or 5W-30 oil t a 15W-40 oil. The new oil is just a bit thicker when the engine is cold, and the thicker oil in the clutch is just a bit less eager to release the clutch until things are warmed up. On all "light" bikes that I own......I start the bike up and warm it up for about 15 seconds to a minute while I am sitting on the bike (just depends what it takes for that bike to run smoothly), then I pull in the clutch, put my left foot on the peg....and I push forward with my right foot and get the bike rolling while I click the bike into gear. It reduces the "shock" or "jump" that occurs when the cold clutch is first called into action. Once in gear I let out the clutch and start my ride. On my trials bike the clutch was very grabby when first started....and sometimes it wouldn't let go for half a minute. I would start the bike, pull in the clutch and push off with my foot while I shifted into first gear.......and then ride around with the clutch pulled in and applying the rear brake on and off....and in about 20 seconds the clutch would release and it would be fine the rest of the day. Trials motorcycles require a lot of clutch slipping to control traction in wet/muddy conditions, and as a result the plates become very polished.....and the oil surface tension just doesn't want to allow the clutch to release. You can correct this problem by taking the clutch apart and lightly sanding the metal and fiber plates to remove the polished surface and provide a way for air to get between the plates and release the "stiction". |
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Title: Re: Clutch issue Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/26/15 at 07:12:23 I've heard of a centrifugal pump that has no vanes, just flat plates. Cool story, Dave, a bike that goes with the clutch pulled in. I see novices crashing. |
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