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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Rough running or just a Big Thumper? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1442279411 Message started by youngde811 on 09/14/15 at 18:10:10 |
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Title: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by youngde811 on 09/14/15 at 18:10:10 Greetings All. I've a 2014 S40 with 2200 miles on it. Stock, with first service at 700 miles. Lately I've been riding a lot more (and longer too) -- just about every day now after work. There are days my bike seems to run smooth; others, like today, where she seems rough; "jerky", rumbly (if that's a word), etc. This is my first bike -- never ridden before -- so I've nothing to compare it with. Idles just find; seems to have good acceleration. When the bike isn't smooth I'm going about 25 to 30 mph in the neighborhood. Above that speed it seems fine. I can't tell if it's just me or something is amiss. Is what I describe a characteristic of a Big Thumper? Thanks for your help, and hopefully I've provided enough information. -- David |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by Serowbot on 09/14/15 at 18:24:24 You're probably in too high a gear for that speed... Try 2nd or 3rd... Don't lug the engine... ;)... |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by youngde811 on 09/14/15 at 18:36:18 Well that's curious. Those are the gears I use for 25-30. I generally don't lug the engine, although there are those times... cheers, david |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by Kris01 on 09/14/15 at 19:22:53 25-30: You should be in 3rd gear. ;) The stock carb runs lean and tends to surge at speed. It's a characteristic of being lean. You can rejet richer and it should feel a little smoother. Also, is it warmed up with the choke off when it runs rough? |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by youngde811 on 09/14/15 at 19:27:37 Ahh, now that makes sense about the carb. And you're right about the gearing. By the time I hit 25 I'm generally in third. I ride the bike so much now it starts right up cold without needing the choke. But I do let it warm up for a few minutes; that seems to help a lot. Should I be using the choke regardless on cold starts? Thanks, David |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by Kris01 on 09/14/15 at 19:38:41 I would. It'll warm up faster too. |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/14/15 at 20:36:45 If I'm in third at twenty-five, I'm cruising very gently, accelerating quickly from there isn't a great plan. |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by youngde811 on 09/14/15 at 20:49:22 Good point. My basic riding skills have improved now to the point where I need to refine my technique. Smoother stops; smoother on the clutch lever, etc. There are lots of hills where I live (Raleigh, NC); 3rd gear going down one of these hills seems the proper approach, no? Running about 30mph. I have a lot to learn about technique and no one to ride with yet, so I'm learning this stuff on my own through trial, error and this forum. Cheers, David |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/14/15 at 20:53:32 Downhill, yeah, uphill, no way.. |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by youngde811 on 09/14/15 at 20:57:17 Agreed. I do make mistakes there now and then. -- david |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by chzeckmate on 09/14/15 at 23:53:29 I would not recommend running in 3rd at 25. You will lug it. My recommendation: 1st = 0-20mph 2nd = 21-35mph 3rd = 35-50mph 4th = 50-65mph 5th = 65+mph Riding this way you will never rev above 4400rpm except in fifth at high speeds. It's perfectly safe to give your bike a little more room on each gear, but lugging it is not good for it. I wouldn't recommend riding below 3100rpm in any gear except for 1st. |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by Dave on 09/15/15 at 04:10:13 If you don't need the choke to start the bike....don't use it. The choke (fuel enrichment valve) only works at idle, so it doesn't do much of anything when you are riding....only works when the throttle is closed. If the bike will idle smoothly without the choke on.....then leave it off. Running with it on could put too much fuel in the mixture, and this can wash the oil off the cylinder walls and also carbon up the engine.....if you don't need it, don't use it. I am not sure why - but I never needed the choke on mine to start it either. However....my bike sits in a warm garage and I don't ride when it is really cold outside. |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by JutMan on 09/15/15 at 05:17:09 After reading somewhere earlier this week, i now start mine standing up with the choke on. After I have it running and the engine is idling nicely I then turn the choke off and put it back on the side stand to warm up. Apparently, it lets the oil that is pooled in the top end get some on the cam before the oil pressure has a chance to build up. |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by Dave on 09/15/15 at 09:49:32 4C73724B6768060 wrote:
Don't let it "warm up" too long....a minute is about all that is needed. The engine would have higher oil pressure and better lubrication if you just started riding down the road and were gentle on the throttle for the first few miles. The piston/cylinder is oiled from the splash/spray coming out of the rod bearing while it spins around....and there isn't much spinning or oil flow at idle speeds, especially when the engine is cold and the oil is thick. |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/15/15 at 12:31:42 Our multi grade oils are Supposed to act like fifteen weight cold and as it warms , start behaving like forty weight, That's my understanding of it, which by no means makes it so. |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by Dave on 09/15/15 at 12:52:59 Yep, the modern multi grade oils are better......However 70 degree oil is not thrown around or pumped through the engine the same way it is when it gets up around 200+ degrees. I also believe the oil is being pumped twice as fast at 2,000 rpm as it is at 1,000 rpm....and that the rod bearing is more capable of throwing oil at the piston/cylinder at operating speeds. I'm just not a fan of letting cold engines idle until they get up to operating temperature. When I hear about folks who start their bikes up and let them idle for 30 minutes in the winter to keep the battery charged up and keep the fuel in the carb fresh - I just can't believe that is a good thing. I drain the fuel, remove the battery.....let it take the winter off. I put the battery on a tender occasionally...but not continuously. |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by Sonny on 09/15/15 at 16:47:58 Accelerating, I generally go up to 2nd at 20, 3rd at 30, 4th at 40 and on the 5-speed, 5th at 50. That's probably 60 - 65% of redline at the shifts but when done with a good handful of throttle it out-accelerates most cars by a good margin. I ride the neighborhood at night doing neighborhood watch going 25 or so in second and the bike sails along like an old Cushman delivery bike but with enough rpm on to accelerate strongly without lugging. It is a very pleasant and relaxing spot on a Savage. 25mph in third is technically lugging if you try to accelerate. My 2 cents. Other folks who say rev higher are right, too. But I like the 20 stands for 2nd, 30 stands for 3rd, and so on up. |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by Boogie_with_Stu on 09/15/15 at 17:04:36 youngde811, first off...welcome to the forums! You wont find a greater wealth of information about the Savage/S40 anywhere else in the world. Most of these guys are also "career riders" and can help with basic questions about riding. I also live in Raleigh....down south of 1010 Rd. (which is technically below Garner so how it becomes Raleigh again is a mystery to me). There are lots of old farms and gentle hills/twisties out this way. I'm an old goat that just picked up riding again this summer after a 25 year absence, and believe me....it is NOT like riding a bicycle. I've also got a small 250cc Honda Nighthawk and just the difference between the 2 bikes is pretty huge. You cant throw around the Savage like you can that little 250. Seating position is different, pegs are in a different spot, bars are much lower and thinner....sorta like driving a ford Taurus and then hopping into an Opel. Turn radius, shifting patterns, counter-steering methods, braking distances....it's all different. Did you do the Motorcycle Safety Course at Wake tech yet? If not, I would strongly recommend it. It will be worth every cent. Happy riding! |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/15/15 at 18:07:21 Dave, I agree with a lot of what you said. I always got it started in cold weather, then put the helmet on and rode off. Summer, all dressed, hit start, adjust idle, ride.. |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by MnSpring on 09/15/15 at 18:08:19 Well I approached the Idle, Warm-up, a different way. Being new to this, (old style) engine, and learning a tremendous amount from the people here, that have, ‘Been their, Done that”. Idle, needed to be fast, 1,200 + rpm, enough at start up, to adequately Lube the upper half of the engine. That accomplished 2 ways, Pull out the Choke, or increase the throttle screw. As I (used to), drive a truck which had a ‘choke’, foot pedal, (gas/throttle), and, a ‘hand’ throttle, which could be set. I looked at the problems and solutions., and modified. Problem, when I increased the throttle screw, the bike ran to high when warmed up. Didn’t want to keep the Choke out, (to warm up), 1. Didn’t need a choke to start, 2. Didn’t want the extra gas washing the oil off the Cyl. So, a Shim. With bike warmed up, set the screw to about 1050RPM. Then a little piece of alum, (started with 1/16 inch thick). When bike was cold, opened throttle, set the shim between the throttle screw, and cable end, and started. (Just took a couple of draws with a rasp, to get to the right thickness, so when, ‘with shim’, Idle, ‘Cold’, was at about 1,400). Then took a piece of sturdy string, put it through a hole in the shim, and around something close. Now, I shim it, start it, Put on jacket, helmet, gloves, (30-40 sec), drive it down the drive, (‘bout 200 yards), Not touching the throttle, (It’s at about 11-11.5 MPH, driving in 1st, no throttle, other than the, shim’.) stop, check traffic, and go. As soon as I twist the throttle, the ’shim’ just drops out. (and hangs their waiting till the next, cold, start) It is about 1.4 miles one way and 1.6 miles the other, till a stop sign. As that point, engine warm enough, the the idle is back to a comfortable 1,050 +/- May work for you, may not. But it works for me. |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by Kris01 on 09/15/15 at 20:06:16 I've never believed in warming up any engine - carb'd or EFI. As long as it runs without stalling and you take it easy for the first few miles, the engine will warm itself up anyway. As has been mentioned, idle time during a cold start may not be good for your bearings anyway. I ALWAYS use the choke/fuel enrichment knob when starting the bike - even in the summer. You can tell from how the throttle performs when the engine is warmed up enough to push the choke back in. I leave it out for 2 or 3 miles until the engine runs smoothly. |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by Kris01 on 09/15/15 at 20:08:55 MnSpring: If I'm reading that correctly, you shimmed the throttle "more open" at idle. When you twist the throttle, it falls out. How ingenious! ;) |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by youngde811 on 09/15/15 at 21:18:51 So czeckmate, that's an interesting gearing table you listed. Third gear all the way up to 50? I've not tried this before. I'm in fourth by the time I get to 50. In fact, I tend to shift this way: 0 - 10 first 10 - 25 second 25 - 35 third 35 - 50 fourth 50+ fifth. quite different. So am I lugging the engine? Cheers, David |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by youngde811 on 09/15/15 at 21:23:30 Hi BoogieWthStu. I'm scheduled to take the MSF course this October. Looking forward to it. Cheers, david |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by MnSpring on 09/16/15 at 19:20:46 0A3328327170410 wrote:
Yea, it take about 2-4 sec, I am already bent over turning the key on, so it works. The end result is, higher Idle at start up, lower idle at Warm up. Thar is a photo of it it somewhere, IF you want I can do another on one. |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by Kris01 on 09/17/15 at 20:03:54 Thanks. I think I have a pretty good mental picture. Sometimes the easy solutions get overlooked. ;) |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by raydawg on 09/18/15 at 15:48:45 My bike will cool enough on a twenty minute ferry ride that, at times, I have to enrich if I don't want to crank it too long. I always put it in neutral to alleviate clutch wear too. But I too need a few minutes on it, or my bike will ride funky, original jetting and screw still virgin, never changed mixture setting.... |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by Sonny on 09/18/15 at 16:07:05 There are a couple of intermediate detents on the choke knob. From the inside one, it will pull itself the rest of the way in as you ride. At least that's true on mine. But anyway, full choke isn't your only choice. If the idle seems too high you can see if it will idle smoothly on a partial setting. In this warm weather my bikes will take partial choke as soon as they start. I've been using it since reading all the worries on this board about "cylinder washed with gasoline..." |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by springman on 09/18/15 at 16:21:46 I agree with Chzeckmate as far as the speeds go. I've had my S40 for about 4 years now and I now that I used to lug it when I first started riding it. |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by Kris01 on 09/18/15 at 17:43:34 If you "lug" the engine, it gets really loud and knocks very strongly. Otherwise, you're probably doing fine. |
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Title: Re: Rough running or just a Big Thumper? Post by youngde811 on 09/18/15 at 17:48:10 Thanks to all for the advice and information. I'm pretty good about keeping the engine from lugging (in general); it doesn't "get really loud and knock" and if it does on occasion I downshift. I guess it's just the S40 being the S40... Cheers, David |
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