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Message started by jwenrich on 08/02/15 at 10:22:20

Title: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by jwenrich on 08/02/15 at 10:22:20

I recently put on a dyna muffler from american custom. Love it. It ran great for about a week, and then started getting lurchy at the low end.

Shouldn't a carb issue present right away?

Anyway, took it in to a shop (Shoulda done it myself), and the first time he completely threw off the carb. Barely made it home. He ended up putting in a new needle, with a more tapered point. I took it back, he replaced with stock jets, but left the new needle.

At idle, there is a tinging which seems to come from the cylinder (Lean?)

I have ordered a larger #55 pilot, but am wondering about the more tapered needle. Have not been able to find much regarding what affects this might have.

Any thoughts on a more tapered needle? (Stock is flatter)

Thanks guys

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by verslagen1 on 08/02/15 at 11:10:02

Normally, we just replace the jets and if it surges in the mid range we do a white spacer mod. all of which is detailed in the tech section.

what he's done will richen the low end but might be lean on the top end.
and when you put a fatter pilot jet it will be too rich on the low end.

can't say what he did is entirely wrong, w/out a air/fuel meter no one knows.

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by jwenrich on 08/02/15 at 11:14:50

So would the tinging sound at idle be the result of too rich?

The last 7/8th throttle did seem to flatten out, ie no change in response to the throttle at that point. I did sand down the point of the new needle, but the idle sounded so loping and tingy that I didn't take it out after.

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by Serowbot on 08/02/15 at 11:35:54

An American Custom muffler is not a Harley muffler so we don't really know what you have...
Could be similar to a stock Harley or nearly completely open...

Now someone else has fooled with your jetting,.. so we don't that either...

... but,.. if the bad running didn't change 'till later,... it's something else...
So, what changed?...

Have you checked yer' petcock?... :-/...

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/02/15 at 11:47:45

I've been here ten years. We have some guys here who I consider gurus when it comes to the carb. I've never seen one suggest that. Another thing I've seen during that time is them,guiding people through the carb , slowly, inexpensively , and successfully. Reports of
I took it to the pros and it runs great
are few, not sure I recall any.
We've seen multiple engines DESTROYED by the Pro at the dealership
just doing an oil change.
Your knowledge and experience, no matter how limited, with a manual , proper tools and willingness to be patient, careful and thorough, won't keep you from succeeding.
I've seen a couple give up, pay for help and get it back running ,but not optimally. I wonder if they just don't know, or care, or are hurrying, because they get paid X dollars for the job, if it takes ten minutes or ten hours. And I suspect they resent owners who have tried...
First step is of course, knowing that the tank is clean and gas is fresh.
Then knowing fuel delivery is right.
Then knowing the jets are the right size and clear.
Then the carb internal passageways are clear.
From there, the white washer mod, adjusting idle air, sometimes the
TEV, BUT that'll above my pay grade.
When you win this you'll have learned stuff you're gonna be glad you know.
Eventually, the valves will need adjusted, cam tensioner dealt with and you'll be more confident.

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by jwenrich on 08/02/15 at 12:10:20

First off thank you for the quick replies.

I have a 2012, so everything is clean. New raptor petcock installed a while ago.

And I know I shouldn't have taken it to someone else. I knew what needed done, was just feeling lazy i guess (live and learn)

American custom takes the Dyna and tweaks it, I do have a baffle in it, it may need a bit better seal at the end.

My main concern is a tinging at idle that seems to be coming from the cylinder. Is this lean, or rich?

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by Dave on 08/02/15 at 12:18:19

If everything except the muffler is stock....a #55 pilot is most likely really rich. Most stock engines with the stock air cleaner run fine with a #50 pilot, and going to a #52.5 is mostly done when a Pod filter is installed.

Has the "no tamper" plug been taken out so you can adjust your idle fuel mixture?

Changing the needle is normally not done....we just take out the white spacer and put in 3 washer instead (#4 machine screw washers). If you have a mid throttle surge....then take out 1 washer so that you only have 2 washers.

The main jet sort of depends on the altitude where you ride - but a #150 is a good place to start if you are around sea level up to a couple thousand feet.

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by jwenrich on 08/02/15 at 12:21:28

All jets are stock, pilot at 52.5, main at 145.

The plug has been removed. When idling, I can richen it, and the tinging reduces a bit, but the idle speed gets much lower.

Only surge I get is minimal just below maintaining speed, at just a hint of throttle when slowing or going downhill.

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/02/15 at 12:43:32

Maintaining a minimum of a thousand RPM is crucial to keeping oil to the cam. It rides in the head. No shell bearings, no bushings. A failure means a new head and head cover, as they are line bored together. The only time to drop it a little is while adjusting the idle air mixture, so you can find the sweet spot. I went for a ride and tweaked at red lights. Less time at low RPM. And it was always at operating temps.

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by jwenrich on 08/02/15 at 12:47:03

I make sure to keep it up, but I have to turn the idle speed knob so much farther than before, and it puts a lot of play (just over quarter inch of turn) into the throttle.

Upping the idle doesn't diminish the tinging anyway, and my oil levels are fine.

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/02/15 at 12:56:39

Not to be a snoot, but at this point, can you really say that you know the idle circuit is clear of obstruction? You shouldn't hafta crank the idle up like that. From where I'm sitting, all that anyone knows is a
Pro
worked on it and it's anything but right.

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by jwenrich on 08/02/15 at 13:01:45

...no i cant be sure. The guy forgot to put the bolts back in my seat too (only the allen bolt at the back holding it on) so I guess anything is possible.

I was hoping to avoid taking the carb off the bike, but I suppose I should just redo everything and start over.

Thats 100 bucks I could have kept.

As I move forward, What are some possible causes of a tinging in the cylinder? My guess is its lean, but I really dont know for sure. What should I look for?

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by Kris01 on 08/02/15 at 15:40:58

At this point I would start completely over. I'm at just a hair over sea level and I'm running the stock pilot. It runs just fine. 52.5 may be a little lean for you with that muffler. What's your altitude?

Put the stock needle back in and, as Dave suggested, shim it with 3 #4 washers. That's a good starting point. You shouldn't have any surging at cruising RPMs.

The stock 145 main might be lean for you as well (depending on your altitude). Check my signature. Mine runs great!

Don't forget to reset your idle mixture with the screw. Turn your idle down a bit so when you make a change to your mixture it becomes more apparent how the engine likes it. Turn your air/fuel screw for the highest, smoothest idle. Once you get that tuned, crank your idle speed back up to ~1100. ;)

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by jwenrich on 08/02/15 at 16:24:58

So my understanding is the spacer allows the needle to 'rest' a little higher off the main jet. By reducing the spacer, it actually raises the tip of the needle.

This is what mine was set to... Stock is top, the 'pros' is on the bottom...

Looks to me like it might be just a tad on the rich side. :(

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by jwenrich on 08/02/15 at 19:37:59

Ok so I used his needs again, but brought it up to the second to top notch, lowering the needle right? Put it all back together... Backfire popping on every thump and black smoke... Shouldnt lowering the needle have made it leaner?

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/02/15 at 20:15:06

I'd have that carb apart and check every port and passageway.
Float level, everything. How else will you know? You clearly had a
Pro
who did a
Less Than
job.
A can of Berrymans, EYE Protection, very well ventilated work area.
I go outside when I can. I also take a breath, hold, squirt, walk away exhaling. That stuff is harsh.

The plug sits in a hole. dirt accumulation makes blowing it clear before pulling the plug prudent.

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by jwenrich on 08/02/15 at 20:20:42

Carb is pretty much spotless.

Put the stock needle with stock spacer back in. Back to square one and at least it runs.

Really tingy though at idle, just seems to get worse. Ordered a 55 pilot, should be herein a week.

Gonna check the header gasket. Didn't replace that and there was a lot of jimmy in going on. Maybe this will solve the mystery ting.

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/02/15 at 20:49:52

The idle screw cranked in so far as to put that amount of slack is messed up.
You swapped mufflers, a week later, it starts running funny .
I'm Not one of the carb guys, but , IMO, something is blocking something that has to do with the idle circuit.
I hope one of the smart guys addresses the idle screw, slack in throttle.

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by jwenrich on 08/02/15 at 20:54:39

The late reaction is odd, but honestly I think im having to crank my idle up so much just to access later jets. Hopefully a freer flowing pilot will help idle run smoother.

I wanna know why what Ithought would lean the carb by llowering the needle made bike blow black smoke. Do I have that all backwards? Lowering the needle I thought meant leaner.

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by verslagen1 on 08/02/15 at 21:08:19

You could be right about the bigger pilot jet.
with the stock one and the tapered needle, it will correct the fuel mixture at that point.
putting the stock needle in made it leaner, now it's missing and passing unburnt gas into the exhaust.

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by jwenrich on 08/02/15 at 21:14:38

Thanks verslagen. I think the taper on the needle he used along the shift was different. Lowering it likely choked off the flow of fuel. Ill update this when I get the larger pilot in. I also ordered larger mains, but per serowbots posts, one step at a time.

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/02/15 at 21:16:32

Okay, change muffler, week later, carb needs jets,

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by Dave on 08/03/15 at 04:25:59

The "other" needle you have appears to have an entirely different taper than the stock one. It appears you will be flowing far more fuel as the slide raises. The taper on these needles is a way that carb can be adjusted to change mixtures at varying rpms.

You would most likely be better off using the stock needle and adjusting it to work....as the taper matches the fuel needs of the engine.

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/03/15 at 16:00:22

So, what is causing the need to Jack the idle so high as to put slack in the throttle cable?

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by jwenrich on 08/10/15 at 20:35:48

Ok finally got my jets. Put them in tonight, started it up and ran it around town. It's perfect!

I replaced the head gasket, and it seems obvious there was a leak. I also used some high temp silicone to seal the clamps as well as the baffle.

Pulls hard through the full range of revs and no feathering during low throttle.

Shaved the spacer down about 1/4 of the way, and now have a 55 and 147.5 jets.

Gonna ride it as much as I can and see if it holds up :)

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by divinerob on 08/11/15 at 08:43:17

I have a question regarding dyna muffler #65747-94. Just got done with the break-in service and wanted to change the stock muffler to the dyna one. Will I need to re-jet the carb ? Everything else is stock

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by jwenrich on 08/11/15 at 10:48:01

Good place to start: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1309246277

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by Dave on 08/11/15 at 11:40:14

6D607F60676C7B666B090 wrote:

The DYNA doesn't always need a re-jet, however if you bike is borderline on needing different jets.....it could push it over the edge.

You just need to ride it and see if the bike runs better or worse after the change. The DYNA won't hurt the way the bike runs and might even improve it a bit...as long as the jetting is still good after the change. If you feel any flat spots where the bike feels like is doesn't pull as hard....or you get surging where the bike isn't sure how hard ti wants to pull, then a re-jet is necessary.

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by JutMan on 08/11/15 at 12:32:10

Can someone please point me to where to get the spacer? I have looked, but have not found anything yet. I want to preserve the original in the event that reducing the size i take too much off. Tried Ace and they looked at me like I had 3 heads.

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by Dave on 08/11/15 at 13:33:33

645B5A634F402E0 wrote:

You just need to go to a good hardware store, and buy small washers in the #4 machine screw size. Most folks find that 3 washers used instead of the spacer works fine....for my bike I needed to go down to 2 washers as I still had a surging issue just off idle.

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by divinerob on 08/11/15 at 17:03:26

Thanks Dave, much appreciated.

Title: Re: Dyna Muffler, Carb issues
Post by jwenrich on 09/12/15 at 22:15:11

Ok coming back to this thread. Figured all the info was here already. Bike has been running alright, except I blew out the sealant I used at the muffler tip, where the baffle doesn't seal along the outside edge.

Is instant weld sealant a good thing to use? The silicone stuff doesn't seem to work well in a dynamic environment.

So my Jetting. It runs, but I think its rich. Any choke kills it almost instantly, and the mixture screw makes no difference when screwed all the way in. Also the tinging noise is still present, but only on start up when cold. Goes away fairly quick (2-3 minutes). Appears to be coming from the header/cylinder maybe?

Well I put the stock pilot back in and it idled really bad. The tinging got way worse, and I had to turn the idle screw up higher. But when I turned in the mixture screw all the way, it ran slightly better.

So it runs fine richer with the 55 pilot, but badly with the 52.5, but then slightly better leaning out the mixture screw. This seems odd.

I may have made a mistake with my needle though. I sanded down the tapered tip slightly, and the spacer as well, so it is now just over 2/3rds original thickness. Does the needle affect the entire circuit, down to idle?

Thanks for any input.