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Message started by lepetitmtl on 07/14/15 at 07:02:46

Title: Rattle rattle rattle
Post by lepetitmtl on 07/14/15 at 07:02:46

First I'll say you guys are awesome and a huge source of knowledge here. I've scoured this board and it's helped me significantly but I've reached a bit of a head scratcher.
I've got some sort of rattle in my top end. This all started after a 6day trip of running hard and ran low on oil. Didnt notice til I pulled off the highway and it was makin a ruckus. I filled it up, came home changed the the oil, filter and kept on riding. I've put on about 5000 more miles knowing this rattle has been there (I know I know) it's significantly subdued when I've got fresh oil (Rotella t 15w40) but as the oil is ready to change the rattle gets more pronounced. When I do oil changes there aren't any metal bits or flakes in my oil. It's not eating oil, in fact I just dropped the oil and after this cycle of 3000 miles the oil stayed within the limits in the window. Towards the end of this oil cycle it would knock for about 20 seconds on chilly mornings almost like it was just waiting for oil to get up into everything. I haven't lost any power that I can tell.

I've been given advice by a few people that it could be the following:
Broken cam chain guide (this was from a guy that rebuilds engines)
Blown piston rings
Loose wrist pin

Things I have taken care of already:
Head plug
Speedo rattle
Headlight rattle
Cam chain tensioner (fabricated my own extension/pin/slot verslagen copy)
Valve adjustment (gaps stay consistent)

I'm starting by checking my cam chain guides, took off the clutch side cover and didn't notice anything really loose so tomorrow I'm gonna take off the header cover and take a look there. I'm going to look at my rocker arms and valve springs. If I don't see anything there im gonna put it all back together again and run a compression test and see if that shows anything.

It only rattles over about 2k rpm. At idle it sounds great.

Anyone have any ideas what I could be looking at, or for, here?

It's a 2001 with 13000 miles

Title: Re: Rattle rattle rattle
Post by Dave on 07/14/15 at 07:09:19

When you run these engine low on oil....the camshaft and rockers can suffer. When the oil pump doesn't pick up enough oil it can't pump a full supply, and what is available tends to stay in the lower end (crank bearings). If the engine is not suffering in performance or oil usage, chances are you somehow avoided scoring the piston and rings.

I believe you need to start by checking your valve clearances. If they have changed and become significantly loose - it is a good indication you have camshaft of rocker damage.

Title: Re: Rattle rattle rattle
Post by lepetitmtl on 07/14/15 at 07:52:51

Yeah over the past 5000 miles I've checked the valves twice and they haven't shifted.

Hopefully I'll see some wear somewhere that will give me an indication of something being wrong.

Title: Re: Rattle rattle rattle
Post by Dave on 07/14/15 at 08:57:25

Take the chrome trim off the left side of the head and look at the arm for the compression release. You can take your and and move it around with the engine running and confirm that it is not touching the exhaust rocker arm. If you lift the arm while the engine is running you can feel when it first comes into contact with the rocker arm as you will feel it start to pulse....when you let go of it the pulsing should stop as there should be clearance.

Title: Re: Rattle rattle rattle
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/14/15 at 09:08:24

but as the oil is ready to change the rattle gets more pronounced. When I do oil changes there aren't any metal bits or flakes in my

I think you hurt it a little, but, by being attentive and diligent, you'll be able to ride it for a few years, I saw oil consumption change as miles built on the oil. New oil, consumption drops to next to nothing.
Figure out when the clatter gets badder, change oil.

I appreciate that you scoured the forum. It looks better.

Title: Re: Rattle rattle rattle
Post by Dave on 07/14/15 at 09:37:42

I just took apart a cylinder head that has some cam and rocker wear, and the rockers are shaped a bit funny. Instead of a nice radius on the rockers....they are a bit S shaped and most likely would make a slapping noise in use.

It could be that your rockers have been worn similarly and don't make a smooth operation for the cam lobes.

Title: Re: Rattle rattle rattle
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/14/15 at 13:09:10

Dave,again, makes an interesting point..
If you have not checked valve lash since the low oil episode, you might wanna have a look.

Title: Re: Rattle rattle rattle
Post by thumperclone on 07/14/15 at 19:07:55

where is the rattle emiting from

Title: Re: Rattle rattle rattle
Post by lepetitmtl on 07/19/15 at 14:18:33

So i Finally got a chance to get the head cover off and i've got two questions for you.

1) Is it possible for the decompression lever to not touch at idle but then start tapping once the engine revs up?

2) should there be pools of oil on the front valve springs like there are on the rear ones?

reasons for these questions. 1) if that could happen, im starting to wonder if thats not what all this noise is coming from. 2) i don't have oil...my preliminary searches tell me thats normal, but i haven't dived in very deep and its a very particular question.

here are some pictures, sorry if they are sideways and whatnot, but i couldn't see any abnormal wear anywhere, either on my cam or on the rocker arms or any other contact (or non-contact) points....

as far as where the noise is coming from...im pretty sure its in the top, can't differentiate from a side and a screwdriver to my ear isn't helping at all.

i've also started the process of pulling my rear cam chain guide to see if its cracked anywhere...it was a TINY TINY bit cockeyed on the bolt, but i dont think it was off enough to be causing noises, unless theres a bushing in htere around the bolt that keeps it straight and thats worn out. I haven't had the chance to pull it yet though. I am doing all the work curbside in front of my house and an epic monsoon like storm was rolling in and I managed to slide my head cover on and stuff plastic bags in my exhaust and the two valve service ports and cover the bike right as the rain started to come down.

alas, pictures. they are huge so youcan zoom in if you want but i dont know how to post them smaller inline with the post.
http://imgur.com/adRkLsO.jpg
http://imgur.com/rp3JLZf.jpg
http://imgur.com/4TvBAsA.jpg
http://imgur.com/2o05Swg.jpg

Title: Re: Rattle rattle rattle
Post by Steve H on 07/19/15 at 15:00:04

Intake valve right behind the cam lobe at the bottom of the spring. Is that a hole worn in the casting?

Title: Re: Rattle rattle rattle
Post by lepetitmtl on 07/19/15 at 15:05:54

looks like that valve spring is supposed to be like that.

other pictures on hte internet show that same hole there. i suspect its for the bottom of the spring to fit in there.

http://www.cyclepedia.com/manuals/online/cpp-240/files/LS650-S40_0408.jpg

Title: Re: Rattle rattle rattle
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/19/15 at 15:33:38

I'd be looking at the valve lash.
I'd clean where the plug sits, pull it, pull the left side access and spin it over manually, feeling for.......

Title: Re: Rattle rattle rattle
Post by lepetitmtl on 07/19/15 at 15:59:30

im not really sure what that's gonna do. I don't hear anything at idle at all except normal engine noise.

i've reset the valve gaps probably 4/5 times total on this bike in hopes that it was that, and for each time i removed my head cover.

also not sure what valve lash means though. i suspect you mean trying to feel if while im turning it over manually i can feel any tapping or resistance?

also i was able to take a better look at both cam chain guides. neither are cracked and neither of them show any wear on the castings to show that they are hitting there causing the rattle....so its not that.

Title: Re: Rattle rattle rattle
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/19/15 at 16:00:01

I guess I should have checked out the pictures..

Title: Re: Rattle rattle rattle
Post by gizzo on 07/20/15 at 01:06:03

Didn't one of the brains trust mention a while back that the flywheel nut can loosen and let the flywheel rattle? Or am I misremembering? Maybe that sound can propagate up the cylinder so it sounds like atop end knock.

Title: Re: Rattle rattle rattle
Post by Dave on 07/20/15 at 03:16:54

My bike and one that MSSpring had both had a horrible rattle from a loose flywheel nut. Since the flywheel is on the end of the crank and the rattle sound goes into the crank bearings and rod....it resonates from the engine block and cylinder. It doesn't sound like a top end rattle, it sounds more like a cylinder noise. It starts out as a tick and gradually works into being a loud hammer noise at idle. The sound is loudest at idle and gradually gets softer as the revs increase.

Title: Re: Rattle rattle rattle
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/20/15 at 07:19:58

It's not a seriously technical job. Does require a puller, IIRC, Aaaand if I'm right it's available Through the forum.

Title: Re: Rattle rattle rattle
Post by lepetitmtl on 08/22/15 at 15:20:12

So my motor is eating itself.

What year motors should I look for that is compatible with 2001. Don't want to have to replace any harnesses if at all possible.

Title: Re: Rattle rattle rattle
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/22/15 at 19:27:25

You can take a shot at fixing it. That's the beauty of working on busted stuff. If it's dying and you kill it, meh,,,