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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Engine braking versus brakes /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1435781218 Message started by stewmills on 07/01/15 at 13:06:58 |
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Title: Engine braking versus brakes Post by stewmills on 07/01/15 at 13:06:58 When I was at the Dragon here recently and running through the mountains all afternoon, I noticed I was of course using my brakes a lot and didn't want to overwork them. I know that downshifting gear-to-gear is not recommended because of damage to the dogs and paws (I think that is what someone here called it). I wasn't downshifting at high speeds and popping the clutch, rather (for example) running about 45ish in 4th and upon approaching a moderate downhill turn I would just roll off the throttle, leaving it in 4th gear, and let the engine slow the bike up a little. When I was ready to speed up, I would then get back into the throttle as needed or downshift to third if I had slowed up considerably (not releasing the clutch to further slow down) and go on about my business. So, is rolling off the throttle relatively safe for slowing on a downhill, or is it just as bad as downshifting and popping the clutch? I am asking as I plan to do some more mountain roads hopefully soon and I don't know if I need to focus on using my brakes 99.9% of the time for all stopping/slowing needs or if my riding style is kinda what you experts do as well? Thanks! |
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Title: Re: Engine braking versus brakes Post by Dave on 07/01/15 at 13:29:32 Rolling off the throttle to slow down is fine....and something a big single is really good at. On some of the roads around here I can go round most the corners without using brakes...the engine compression and wind resistance is enough. Closing the throttle completely and allowing the engine to pop,bang,pop,bang,pop the entire time you are slowing down is a bit annoying....so keeping just a bit of open throttle to cut down on the noise is desirable. You just add enough throttle so the popping stops - but not enough throttle to make the bike accelerate. Downshifting in a manner that brings the engine rpm up really high to slow you down....not my riding style and brake pads are pretty cheap. If I am on a 60 mph road and slowing down for a stop sign, I use my brakes and downshift as the bike is slowing down - but mostly the brakes are doing the work and I am shifting so the bike will be in 1st gear when I get stopped. |
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Title: Re: Engine braking versus brakes Post by stewmills on 07/01/15 at 13:35:09 63585542535F444259515C43300 wrote:
But that's the whole objective, right? To sound cool? Seriously though, it sounds like I have the right perspective and am doing the right thing and not the wrong things. Just wanted to make sure I didn't come rolling down the mountain and create a pop,bang,pop,bang,pop, KABOOM and have S40 engine parts laying all in the road. :o |
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Title: Re: Engine braking versus brakes Post by chzeckmate on 07/01/15 at 13:47:02 If you're doing it wrong then I'm doing it wrong too. That's the way I've always ridden for the last 30 years and I haven't had any adverse effects to my bikes. As long as you downshift and decelerate in a smooth and controlled way at the correct rpm, it is my humble opinion that it will do no more harm to your engine and transmission than upshifting in a smooth and controlled manner while accelerating would do. Of course my thinking is purely empirical...I'd be interested to see some hard data on this. |
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Title: Re: Engine braking versus brakes Post by stewmills on 07/01/15 at 13:50:06 586761667B7C54120 wrote:
chzeckmate, I think we're good if you and I stick together. Despite what my parents told me growing up, I am going with the argument that two wrongs DO make a right. ;D |
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Title: Re: Engine braking versus brakes Post by chzeckmate on 07/01/15 at 14:05:54 252233213B3F3A3A25560 wrote:
Well I'll go with that too and if we do end up with S40 parts lying all over the road, we can help each other rebuild and keep it our little secret ;) |
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Title: Re: Engine braking versus brakes Post by Kris01 on 07/01/15 at 18:50:49 131405170D090C0C13600 wrote:
Two wrongs don't make a right but three rights make a left! Think about it! ;D |
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Title: Re: Engine braking versus brakes Post by jcstokes on 07/01/15 at 20:37:33 I do down change to help braking sometimes. It's a matter of judging revs, I would be quite happy going from fifth to fourth at say 70 mph as the ratio spacing isn't that wide. You could probably go fourth to third at 60 mph without too much worry, don't do it if you feel uncomfortable with it. The big gap in ratios seems to be between third and second, don't attempt to go into first at much over 10 mph if you are moving. The owners manual advises that the maximum gear speeds for a run in bike are First 35 mph, Second 55mph, Third 75 mph, Fourth 90 mph and fifth 100 mph. The figures for the top two gears need to betaken with a large dose of salt. |
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Title: Re: Engine braking versus brakes Post by 1st2know on 07/01/15 at 22:15:32 In the twisties, I rely on throttle control and only use the brakes as an unplanned reaction - if I'm on the brakes, that means I need to stop - I should never need to stop in the twisties! It's important to have the engine in the sweet spot in a turn - roll on to compress the shocks, roll off to reduce speed. Downshifting in a manner that causes "brake dive" is wrong - if I flip to a lower gear, and release the clutch, I should not feel any brake dive. Brake dive from downshifting - bad. When I ride in the rain, I use the engine as an old school ABS - the thumper's compression from the engine helps reduce the likely-hood of locking up the back wheel. Same as the twisties - keep it in the sweet spot, roll off to slow, roll on to go. |
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Title: Re: Engine braking versus brakes Post by Boogie_with_Stu on 07/02/15 at 08:28:31 I was trained to use the gears and throttle to slow down when approaching turns or traffic conditions. I was also taught that 75% of my braking should be done with the front brake. The savage is not a performance motorcycle. Dropping a gear and rolling off the throttle works just fine for me. Down-gearing through the gears like a semi on a long downward decline isnt necessary. I cant see how it would hurt our engine, as it likes to rev high anyway, but it seems like a bad habit to get into. I've seen/heard these guys on crotch-rockets do the down-gear at high revs thang....I guess they just think it sounds cool. |
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Title: Re: Engine braking versus brakes Post by Kris01 on 07/02/15 at 18:36:01 555C4C4B50545A4C3F0 wrote:
I may be completely wrong but your numbers seem very high to me. Even 10 mph in first seems a little high. My transmission would complain. |
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Title: Re: Engine braking versus brakes Post by chzeckmate on 07/02/15 at 19:57:28 2A1308125150610 wrote:
I may be completely wrong but your numbers seem very high to me. Even 10 mph in first seems a little high. My transmission would complain.[/quote] If he's off, I'd say it isn't by too much. If you're rev matching properly it's quite plausible, with one caveat...Overuse of this technique at these corresponding rpms on this bike would most likely result in untimely need for maintenance. I'm curious what others have to say on this...anyone? |
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Title: Re: Engine braking versus brakes Post by Kris01 on 07/02/15 at 20:03:48 I dunno. Using one of the examples, 4th to 3rd at 60 mph seems like you'd skid the rear tire. |
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Title: Re: Engine braking versus brakes Post by chzeckmate on 07/02/15 at 20:21:18 6C554E541716270 wrote:
That's why I mentioned that you'd have to rev match. If you rev match properly you won't skid the tire. If you aren't familiar with rev matching you can watch this.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3gH_362QfM |
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Title: Re: Engine braking versus brakes Post by Art Webb on 07/02/15 at 20:32:41 635A415B1819280 wrote:
Same rule as for not grenading the engine, EASE off the clutch, don't pop it I had mine in the high 50 mph range today accelerating and it simply wasn't a problem, though I wouldn't downshift to 3rd until say 45 of so |
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Title: Re: Engine braking versus brakes Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/02/15 at 20:43:29 Start easy, clutch, gas, downshift, ease off clutch. Normal riding, easeoff gas, step on shifter, goose gas. Hot rodding, clutch, lotsa gas, off clutch.. You learn with time. |
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Title: Re: Engine braking versus brakes Post by Todd James on 07/02/15 at 22:50:42 Justin: That's the briefest instruction manual on shifting I've ever read. And it's spot on. ;D Personally, I enjoy down-shifting whenever I am slowing down. (Panic braking is one exception) For me, smooth, rev-matching downshifts add to the fun of riding. I find it satisfying to flick a series of down-shifts that don't cause jerks or nose dives. Just one smooth, continuous deceleration down through the gears while avoiding any high engine revs. It's a challenge that always invites me to improve my skills at it. I always use the clutch on downshifts because it provides smoother gear changes and helps to prevent damage or unnecessary wear when I mis-judge the rev-matching. Part of my down-shifting fondness harkens back to my truck driving days, but I also like the idea of always being in the optimum gear for my bike speed. |
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