|
SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Engine locked up going about 70 mph... /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1435205493 Message started by Colxjon on 06/24/15 at 21:11:33 |
|
Title: Engine locked up going about 70 mph... Post by Colxjon on 06/24/15 at 21:11:33 Okay so to start off I guess ill say that I own a 1995 savage. Motor has been bored out by the people at bore-tech in ohio when I decided to go to the 96 mm piston. I also change the stock carb to a VM36 mikuni with a 195 main and a 30 pilot jet. The rebuild only has about 300 miles max on it. Ran fine until the other day. So the other day I am crusing about 70 mph down route one when all of the suddenly the engine just stops....rear wheel just starts sliding back and forth so I pull the clutch in as fast as I could and make my way to the shoulder. A few days before I took the bike out I thought I was running a little rich so I figured I would change the pilot jet to something a little smaller so I went from the 30 to the only other one I had which was a 20. Yes I know that's a big jump in jet size but if I read on here correctly that is the starting point for a vm. My guess is that I leaned it out and over heated it. The engine starts up fine just smokes a lot from burning oil. Also I went ahead and did a compression check and is about 125 psi. Next I went ahead and took the engine apart and the piston skirts are all scratched up and the oil rings are completely stuck from the burr that came off the piston skirts. As far as the cylinder walls go there are a few scratches which don't look to bad and everything else looked fine. Id like to hear some advice from people as far as what jet sizes they run in their carbs (vm carbs not the stock carbs) What else could have caused this? Maybe over revving? Ill take some pictures of the piston and cylinder walls when I get some free time. |
|
Title: Re: Engine locked up going about 70 mph... Post by Boogie_with_Stu on 06/24/15 at 21:52:41 Unfortunately I have nothing to offer you in terms of technical advice, but I saw this post and got a lump in my throat. I rode a Kawi 4-banger back 25 yrs ago as a daily driver. Never got the speed up to even close to 90, just drove it like a basic business man commuter bike. My ONLY fear was that a chain or wheel (or MOTOR) would suddenly lock up at speed. It actually used to terrify me quite a bit ( I lived on Long Island in NY and drove the LIE). I am sorry about your mechanical troubles, but I am thanking GOD that you managed to get the bike off the road safely. I have always been "boring". I dont push the envelope, hell...ANY envelope ;D The closest I ever came to it was back in my Coast Guard days which were a lifetime ago. When I decided..at the ripe old age of 55...to start riding again, I bought a Savage BECAUSE it was a bit docile. 45 mph on a country road is perfect for me. SEVENTY? Maybe on a Goldwing lol. I hope you get her back together and rubber side down real soon. |
|
Title: Re: Engine locked up going about 70 mph... Post by Dave on 06/25/15 at 03:51:36 Changing the Pilot Jet from a 30 to a 20 most likely had little to do with your problem. The Pilot jet only controls the fuel mixture at idle to about 1/8th throttle.....at 70 mph you will be using the slide needle or main jet the majority of the time and that will be controlling the fuel mix. When you set the idle (air) screw on the carb at idle.....how many turns in/out was the screw? If the screw was less than 1 turn you should have tried a larger ......if you were around 1.5 turns the jet is the correct size....anything more than 2 turns and the pilot jet is too big. (This is opposite the stock carb as the VM carb uses and air screw and not a fuel screw like the stock CV carb). I really trust Bore Tech to do a good job and get the proper clearances, and until proven otherwise I would suspect the failure was either heat or lubrication related. I have the 95mm in mine and I can't remember how many miles I was easy on the rpm and avoided sustained high rpm......but maybe you didn't give it enough break-in miles or as you suggested maybe the engine was running lean. I have the 34mm VM carb on mine and feel that it is plenty of carb for the Savage - so my jetting numbers aren't going to be much use to you for comparing what jets to try. What does your spark plug look like? What color is the carbon on the piston and valves? I believe that you should get your cylinder lightly honed, buy a new 96mm Wiseco and check the piston clearance, and then put it back together and go easy on it for a while......60 mph and below for the first 500 miles, and avoid any prolonged running at higher speeds. When I had the Trailtech Vapor on my bike it had a cylinder head temperature gauge. At back road speeds between 30-50 mph the head temperature was 250-270 degrees, at sustained 60 mph speeds it would climb to 280.....at 70 mph it would climb to nearly 300 degrees. Where do you live.....what was the air temperature when the engine locked up? What kind and weight of oil where you using? |
|
Title: Re: Engine locked up going about 70 mph... Post by chzeckmate on 06/25/15 at 07:51:00 I wish I could offer some help but this is out of my scope. I just want to say, I'm glad the incident ended with you alive and unharmed. |
|
Title: Re: Engine locked up going about 70 mph... Post by Colxjon on 06/25/15 at 08:02:51 Engine oil is Rotella T 15-40. I called bore tech this morning and told them what happened the lady said she will have the machinist give me a call sometime today. I think I could get away with using another 96 mm and just have him hone it out. The wall clearance seems very tight Anyone have experiences with forged pistons as far as piston to wall clearance goes? I don't think I was running lean the more I look at the top of the piston and the spark plug. Top of piston have plenty of carbon on it except where the oil hit it and took it off. The spark plug is black with no signs of detonation. |
|
Title: Re: Engine locked up going about 70 mph... Post by Colxjon on 06/25/15 at 08:10:17 http://i61.tinypic.com/2v8slsg.jpg |
|
Title: Re: Engine locked up going about 70 mph... Post by Colxjon on 06/25/15 at 08:11:43 http://i57.tinypic.com/fej7dc.jpg |
|
Title: Re: Engine locked up going about 70 mph... Post by Gary_in_NJ on 06/25/15 at 08:14:52 Wow, so much to discuss with just a single photo. - What is the condition of the wrist-pin bearing? - How does the main bearing look? - Are you sure that you have adequate oil pressure? - Is the scoring similar on the other side of the piston? |
|
Title: Re: Engine locked up going about 70 mph... Post by Dave on 06/25/15 at 08:29:32 Bill Moeller at Boretech is the fellow who can tell you what the piston clearance should be.....he has been doing this for years and years and is the "Go To Guy" for this kind of work. His only business is working on motorcycle cylinders and heads.....he "knows" his stuff and I believe he is the only one working at the shop. He did the bore for my Wiseco and I have 6,000 miles on it....and I have ridden it pretty darn hard once I got 500 miles on it. It runs great! There area lot of possibilities about why this occurred....I have no problem with the oil you are using as I use the same oil. It could be that it got too hot, maybe it was running too rich and the extra gas was washing the oil off the cylinder walls...dunno! The weird thing in that photo is how the area between the holes in the ring grooves looks fine....while directly below the holes the scoring starts. The top of the piston also looks like it has a lot of carbon for only having 300 miles on it. You need to forward those photos to Bill at Boretech and get his comments....he really is the expert. |
|
Title: Re: Engine locked up going about 70 mph... Post by Colxjon on 06/25/15 at 08:31:46 7F75717B70797D742A2C28180 wrote:
-Wrist pin is fine, no marks or scaring at all. -Don't know about the main bearing I haven't taken it apart that far and don't plan to. -As far as oil pressure goes I don't know how I would check that and if that was the problem my cams would have been all screwed up and they look fine. -And yes its identical on the other side. Honestly im thinking that there wasn't enough clearance in the cylinder walls. |
|
Title: Re: Engine locked up going about 70 mph... Post by Bubba on 06/25/15 at 09:09:31 I'd agree...although this is for 2 stroke engines it sure looks like the multi-point seize. http://www.smellofdeath.com/lloydy/piston_diag_guide.htm |
|
Title: Re: Engine locked up going about 70 mph... Post by verslagen1 on 06/25/15 at 09:10:00 with that much caking on top of the piston, I'd say you had oil ring failure possibly from the start. but at least it shows you were getting oil up there. I don't know how oil gets up there other than splash. How much oil was left in the case when it seized? |
|
Title: Re: Engine locked up going about 70 mph... Post by Dave on 06/25/15 at 09:35:57 5D7172667471701E0 wrote:
Can you give a bit more of the details about the ride? Had you been riding for a while....engine fully warmed up and 20 miles into the ride, etc. Or did this occur right at the beginning of the ride or right after a pause in the action? Was the fuel tank nearly full......had some gas....or nearly to reserve? How was the oil level after the bike stopped? How did you get the bike home? Did the engine become free once it cooled down and you rode it home? In the time I have been on this forum I know of 2 other Wiseco piston failures. One occurred as yours did, on the first ride where the bike was run up to 70 mph (not a Boretech job), and the other one occurred after the bike had a lot of miles on it and was started after being in storage for 3 years (was a Boretech job). There have been a lot of stock piston failures when the owners just run them out of oil. I searched around on the internet for Wiseco piston clearances...and evidently it is not a standard that they publish. I believe I still have the sheet from Wiseco that came with my piston....I will try and find it and see if it lists any numbers. |
|
Title: Re: Engine locked up going about 70 mph... Post by Colxjon on 06/25/15 at 09:55:19 6C575A4D5C504B4D565E534C3F0 wrote:
Can you give a bit more of the details about the ride? Had you been riding for a while....engine fully warmed up and 20 miles into the ride, etc. Or did this occur right at the beginning of the ride or right after a pause in the action? I had probably rode at least 20 miles from the time I started the bike so i know it was completely warmed up. I then decided to jump onto route one which is a highway so i know i was at least doing 65. I was probably only on that road for a mile when it locked up on me. Was the fuel tank nearly full......had some gas....or nearly to reserve? Tank has about a half tank right now. How was the oil level after the bike stopped? Oil level was fine, that was one of the first things I checked. How did you get the bike home? Did the engine become free once it cooled down and you rode it home? Once I made it to the side of the road I waited maybe less then 5 minutes before i tried to restart. It started right up and was smoking alot(white smoke) clearly from oil burning. Never had any oil burning before. In the time I have been on this forum I know of 2 other Wiseco piston failures. One occurred as yours did, on the first ride where the bike was run up to 70 mph (not a Boretech job), and the other one occurred after the bike had a lot of miles on it and was started after being in storage for 3 years (was a Boretech job). There have been a lot of stock piston failures when the owners just run them out of oil. I searched around on the internet for Wiseco piston clearances...and evidently it is not a standard that they publish. I believe I still have the sheet from Wiseco that came with my piston....I will try and find it and see if it lists any numbers. [/quote] On the website it states that a 96 mm piston in my case would already have the tolerances in the size of the piston meaning that a 96mm bore would be for the 96mm piston which is about 95.5 mm |
|
Title: Re: Engine locked up going about 70 mph... Post by verslagen1 on 06/25/15 at 10:13:02 I believe you'll find the clearances printed on the outside of the box. |
|
Title: Re: Engine locked up going about 70 mph... Post by Dave on 06/25/15 at 10:26:29 This is the only other photo I have seen of a failed Wiseco. This one was in run for several thousand miles, then stored for 3 years. I believe the piston was dry after all that storage time and the piston siezed before the oil could be pumped through the engine and actually get to the piston/cylinder. It shows a similar pattern where the sides of the piston skirt have pushed the piston against the cylinder and caused more scoring along that part of the skirt. http://images1.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp93232%3Euqcshlukaxroqdfv36%3A57%3Enu%3D323%3A%3E639%3E697%3EWSNRCG%3D3763%3C%3A7%3A5%3B339nu0mrj |
|
Title: Re: Engine locked up going about 70 mph... Post by Colxjon on 06/25/15 at 17:17:22 So I talked to Bill today about everything that happened the other day and he said to go ahead and send him some pictures of the piston and cylinder. He said I should be okay with just a hone and told me it may be a good idea to do the carbide bore treatment. Anyone have any experience with it? Im sure it couldn't do any harm but is it worth the extra money? I must say he seems like a very smart guy and definitely knows what hes talking about. |
|
Title: Re: Engine locked up going about 70 mph... Post by Dave on 06/25/15 at 19:15:19 I got the Silicone Carbide treatment on mine.....and Lancer does it on all of the cylinders he does. It is supposed to make the cylinder more durable and reduce friction. Here is the Boretech page on it: http://bore-tech.com/Carbide%20Bore%20Process |
|
Title: Re: Engine locked up going about 70 mph... Post by LANCER on 06/26/15 at 05:39:26 As Dave mentioned I have the Silicone Treatment done on all cylinders for the Big Bore Kits I do. I have been doing them since 2001, when I had my own cylinder done for the first time. I recommend it highly. I have had 2 low oil experiences since then and it saved my cylinder both times without damage or incident. The photo that Dave put up showing piston damage was from one of my bikes, and as stated it was caused by a "dry start" after sitting for an extended period of time which allowed to rings to develop some rust which yanked the piston to one side upon starting and caused the gauging. It was not immediately apparent what had happened since the engine continued to run, but with a little bit of a knock. My cylinder has one small gauge in it with a tiny piece of the ring stuck in it. I intend to GENTLY grind it out and re-hone the cylinder and put it back together. I still need to get a piston for it though when the budget permits. |
|
Title: Re: Engine locked up going about 70 mph... Post by Colxjon on 07/13/15 at 14:52:53 UPDATE: So the new piston is here and the machine work is done. Now im just waiting on a couple gaskets to come in. Checked my ring end gap Top Compression ring:.019 2nd Compression ring:.021 Oil rings:.018 Any recomended oil for break in? Or what the break in procedure is? I have a gneral idea of what is needed and what not to do when breaking in a engine but would like to hear what other people have done and what works for them. Thanks. |
|
Title: Re: Engine locked up going about 70 mph... Post by verslagen1 on 07/13/15 at 15:19:46 Rotella T 15w-40 with a shot of ZDDP Break-in: There are 2 schools of thought (WD vs. the world) Flog it vs be gentile with a gradual increase in running time. There's a accelerated break-in procedure on the net that says Flog it with a gradual increase in running time and it'll be broke-in at 250 miles. This is what I did at the beginning of summer and I took it to the dragon this year. So we'll see. |
|
Title: Re: Engine locked up going about 70 mph... Post by Dave on 07/13/15 at 15:31:15 Well.....I used the Rotella T and went easy on mine for the first 500 miles. I did not apply full throttle or keep the rpm constant for long periods of time. Mine seems to be working fine and has 6,000 miles on the Wiseco. |
|
Title: Re: Engine locked up going about 70 mph... Post by Dave on 08/07/15 at 04:33:46 Update? Bike together yet? |
|
Title: Re: Engine locked up going about 70 mph... Post by Dave on 08/31/15 at 03:26:07 6A515C4B5A564D4B5058554A390 wrote:
Still no Joy? |
|
Title: Re: Engine locked up going about 70 mph... Post by JutMan on 08/31/15 at 04:19:15 What is considered an "extended" period of time for a bike to sit before you should first remote the plug and shoot a bit of oil in it? |
|
Title: Re: Engine locked up going about 70 mph... Post by Dave on 08/31/15 at 05:23:22 013E3F062A254B0 wrote:
Dunno for sure...I suppose it depends a bit on where/how the bike is stored. When you turn your bike off there is a thin layer of oil on the internal engine parts.....and the piston and cylinder wall have some oil between them. If the bike is stored in a way that it can get really hot (it gets over 100 degrees in my metal pole barn several times a summer). A few years of that kind of treatment and there likely will be very little oil left on the cylinder. I don't think it is necessary to put any oil in the cylinder for a bike that has been parked for a month or two, or over the winter - beyond that I would be tempted to remove the plug and put a little light oil in the cylinder and let it soak past the rings for a few days before you start the bike....it couldn't hurt! |
|
Title: Re: Engine locked up going about 70 mph... Post by JutMan on 08/31/15 at 05:33:59 53686572636F747269616C73000 wrote:
Dunno for sure...I suppose it depends a bit on where/how the bike is stored. When you turn your bike off there is a thin layer of oil on the internal engine parts.....and the piston and cylinder wall have some oil between them. If the bike is stored in a way that it can get really hot (it gets over 100 degrees in my metal pole barn several times a summer). A few years of that kind of treatment and there likely will be very little oil left on the cylinder. I don't think it is necessary to put any oil in the cylinder for a bike that has been parked for a month or two, or over the winter - beyond that I would be tempted to remove the plug and put a little light oil in the cylinder and let it soak past the rings for a few days before you start the bike....it couldn't hurt![/quote] Thanks for the quick response! I am mostly concerned about over the winter. Left outside the last 2 winters as I do not have a garage. I try to start it at least one or two times on warm days and let it warm up a bit at least to get the juices flowing. Hopefully this year I will have a shed to put it in which will help. The left side of the engine crankcase cover is starting to feel the effects of the coating over the aluminum is starting to look crappy. |
|
SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2! YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved. |