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Message started by rong on 06/07/15 at 14:52:26

Title: Will air cooled engines overheat during long idles
Post by rong on 06/07/15 at 14:52:26

Maybe some experts on this site can help.

Since the Suzuki S40 is an air cooled engine, will the engine overheat during long idles? ... Such as when you get caught in a long traffic jam, or slow moving traffic, or slow traffic from commutes or accidents?

Where I live one can easily get caught up in traffic where you may have stop and go traffic for miles ... sometimes up to a half hour of slow movement. Kind of worried about how it may affect the lack of air flow in the S40 air cooled engine.

I understand that some companies offer cooling fans (also called parade fans) for Harley Davidsons (which also have air cooled engines). The claim is that they really help.

Should I be worried? Open to your thoughts and ideas.

Thanks,
Ron G

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/07/15 at 15:02:23

This could turn into a lively discussion...
I know a really smart guy in Houston who runs premium when it's hot.
He has much experience with engines, building and racing,

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by 01suzsavage on 06/07/15 at 15:02:59

Im not 100% but i would think it would overheat but would take quite awhile if it was running at idle.

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by Steve H on 06/07/15 at 17:59:59

My opinion is an air cooled engine should be able to idle until it runs out of fuel without overheating. However, given how scant the cooling fins are on this engine, I don't know. I have seen it recommended several times that if you're going to be sitting for a long while, turn it off.

I have not tried idling for long periods with this engine. I have sat at long lights in the summer and driven slowly at meets and stuff and never had it overheat. I guess if you're worried, you could always get a parade fan. It couldn't hurt to have more air moving over the cylinder in the heat.

Just remember that idling is barely if even charging so you'll most likely be running it off the battery. Too long and your battery will get weak.

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by Serowbot on 06/07/15 at 18:13:12

Yup,... they'll overheat...

Harley's do it Beemer's do it, my 225 Yamaha, Honda 360, Hodaka 125...
I think any air-cooled bike will... on a hot day, in still air...

They ain't generators, they are designed to move...

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by Dave on 06/07/15 at 18:24:58

I had a a temperature gauge mounted on the the head for a while, and it would approach 300 degrees on 95 degree days crawling up a gravel mountain road while at the Dragon, and while MMRanch made me ride down the main street in Pigeon Forge on a similarly hot day. I turned the engine off multiple times when we were just sitting.

I do worry about excessive heat when those conditions arise. It may not be overheating....but it certainly is abusing the rubber seals and gaskets if nothing else.

Might be that you should consider driving on the berm and taking the next side road when you hit those long traffic jams.

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/07/15 at 18:44:22

Question

How to increase heat sink surface/capacity/efficiency..
Something removable
Not horrid looking

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by gizzo on 06/08/15 at 00:26:40

Years ago I was skiing at the river and saw this guy with a home built kneeler (like a little hydroplane kind of thing) that had a Beetle engine in. He'd rigged up some kind of sprayer that picked water from the river and ejected in an atomised spray through the barrels and heads. Everwhere he went he was followed by a cloud of steam. According to him there was never a problem with it. Might be a little impractical on the Savage though.

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by Dave on 06/08/15 at 04:03:23

There is no doubt that the water cooled bikes with radiators are better able to handle the heat when idling for long periods. They have fans that kick on when the radiator temperature rises.

Our Savage does not really have an excess amount of cooling fins for the engine size. Also we have a pretty low oil flow volume at idle speed, and the camshaft does not have any bearings and spins in the machined aluminum head. I believe the crankshaft bearings can handle periods of low oil flow and high temperatures pretty well, the big concerns in my opinion would be the breakdown of the oil film in the piston/cylinder and the cam shaft in the cylinder head...as well as the heat deteriorating the gaskets and rubber parts like seals and the problematic head plug that is prone to leaking oil.

If you are going to be in those scenarios that make you sit for extended periods - you may want to use the Rotellat T-6 synthetic oil which can handle heat a little better than the Dino oil. And you may want to consider turning the engine off when you are going to be sitting for a while.

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 06/08/15 at 05:16:56

7A414C5B4A465D5B4048455A290 wrote:
And you may want to consider turning the engine off when you are going to be sitting for a while.

If I were stuck in traffic like that I would consider:

1) turning off the engine and doing the Fred Flintstone crawl; i.e move along using foot power

2) if the conditions are right, lane split my way through until the pace picks up.

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by pgambr on 06/08/15 at 05:24:08

For those who ride an air-cooled V-twin, how does the rear piston stay cool? I always wondered about that?

Best regards,

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by Serowbot on 06/08/15 at 07:25:36

2F383E323D2D5F0 wrote:

For those who ride an air-cooled V-twin, how does the rear piston stay cool? I always wondered about that?

They don't,..not if they are air-cooled...
Newer big Harleys now have a "parade" mode, in which the rear cylinder shuts off at a certain temperature...
Harley thumpers!... finally!... ;D...

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by gizzo on 06/08/15 at 07:56:37

Proper v twins ;) have the engine in an "L" configuration where the front cylinder lays down and the rear one is vertical,thumper style. Or a transverse v with a pot out each side. Either layout gives good airflow.

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/08/15 at 08:14:26

Call me impatient. Sitting on a bike, its hot, no fun...
I carried a water bottle, that pumped up and had valve and nozzle, cool mist. Refilled water bottles in the bag.
A stop at the water hose, to wet the tshirt under the long sleeve, left partly unsnapped. Tractor Supply welders shirts, heavy duty.
Anyway, I ll drive out of my way, drive farther and longer to avoid sitting.
Even if im in a car and I have AC, I despise sitting at a light for more than two cycles. Once is plenty for me.

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by Art Webb on 06/08/15 at 10:31:42

I won't use the drive through at a fast food place, or the bank
If I gotta wait, the folks I'm waiting on can provide the AC and I'll save the gas

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by pgambr on 06/08/15 at 13:43:17

"Parade" mode, HA! ;D

Best regards,

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by Dave on 06/08/15 at 14:46:41

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/motorcycles/a11811/harley-davidson-rear-cylinder-cutout/

Potato..potato....pot...pot....potato..potato....pot.....pot.....pot....potato.

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by rong on 06/08/15 at 17:45:56

Thanks for all of your input.

Dave, you mentioned Rotella T6 synthetic oil. I saw that oil in the store and looked at the specs on the bottle. It said that it was Diesel oil! It did have the Jaso recommendation (I think that's what is recommended).

Is diesel oil Rotella T6 used in the S40? ... Or am I looking at the wrong oil?

Thanks,
Ron G

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by Dave on 06/08/15 at 18:29:07

Shell Rotella T and T-6 are Heavy Duty Engine Oils.....which can be used in diesel and gasoline engines. It is also rated for use in motorcycles and is safe for wet clutches.

You can read more about oil in this thread.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1366651397

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by Kris01 on 06/08/15 at 20:22:44

Being a diesel rated oil, it will clean the internals as well. If your engine hasn't had an oil change in an extremely long time then change it with Rotella and run it about 500-1000 miles then change it again. The Rotella will clear out any gunk left by other inferior oils.

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by rong on 06/09/15 at 12:48:36

Thanks for the oil information. I guess I did look at the correct oil. This website is really great for finding people that know about the Savage.

Thanks again!
Ron G

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by chzeckmate on 06/09/15 at 17:46:05

I live in Houston and I know just what you're dealing with. I too have big concerns about overheating. Even though it's not legal here in Texas, I lane split. I'd rather pay a little ticket than damage my motor.

Since we're talking about oil, I'd like to tap the knowledge of the members here. I'm seeing a lot of posts about Rotella but I've been running this. How does it compare and should I switch?

https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/mobil-1/mobil-1-4t-motorcycle-oil

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by old.indian on 06/09/15 at 18:19:40

One of the ways to reduce engine temperature in an air cooled engine is to reduce oil temperature. (It also works in older liquid cooled auto engines.) Old VW Bugs and Porches had oil coolers inside the fan shrouds. I installed an after market oil cooler on my (dry sump) '69 CB 750. The '95 Nighthawk (wet sump) had a factory oil cooler. I'm not sure what it would take to install a pressurized oil cooler on an S40.

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by Kris01 on 06/09/15 at 19:31:56

I don't think the oil pressure is enough to run a cooler effectively. It seems dangerous to the engine. I'd hate to starve the bearings of oil.

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by Art Webb on 06/09/15 at 20:31:55

102F292E33341C5A0 wrote:

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by chzeckmate on 06/09/15 at 20:46:11

60737576646363010 wrote:

[quote author=102F292E33341C5A0 link=1433713946/15#21 date=1433897165]I live in Houston and I know just what you're dealing with. I too have big concerns about overheating. Even though it's not legal here in Texas, I lane split. I'd rather pay a little ticket than damage my motor.

Since we're talking about oil, I'd like to tap the knowledge of the members here. I'm seeing a lot of posts about Rotella but I've been running this. How does it compare and should I switch?

https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/mobil-1/mobil-1-4t-motorcycle-oil

Rotella would be a better choice IMO
first, racing oil, real racing oil, is only inteneded for short term use
Second, rotella has a fair bit of zinc, or zddp in it, which is good for flat tappet engines
Most cycle oils these days have very little of this lubricant, id any[/quote]

I had heard this before, but I assumed that racing oil is usually only good for short term use because its primarily used for racing which is incredibly hard on it. Of course that was just my assumption, I wasn't basing that on any real knowledge or experience. Are you saying that racing oil is formulated in such a way that it just breaks down very quickly?

By the way, the Mobil 1 Racing 4t 10w-40 has 1300 ppm ZDDP. That's the reason that I got it initially. Someone told me that ZDDP is important for the S40. I took it at face value and made this selection based on that.

I've only put around 1k on this oil. Am I safe to run the full cycle or should I change it sooner?

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by Art Webb on 06/09/15 at 20:53:44

132C2A2D30371F590 wrote:

[quote author=60737576646363010 link=1433713946/15#24 date=1433907115][quote author=102F292E33341C5A0 link=1433713946/15#21 date=1433897165]I live in Houston and I know just what you're dealing with. I too have big concerns about overheating. Even though it's not legal here in Texas, I lane split. I'd rather pay a little ticket than damage my motor.

Since we're talking about oil, I'd like to tap the knowledge of the members here. I'm seeing a lot of posts about Rotella but I've been running this. How does it compare and should I switch?

https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/mobil-1/mobil-1-4t-motorcycle-oil

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by Art Webb on 06/09/15 at 20:55:13

Mobil 1
Racing™ 4T 10W[ch8208]40 1200 1300
Advanced full synthetic formulas
designed specifically for
motorcycles where clutch
lubrication is also important.
All motorcycles where
10W[ch8208]40 is specified.
SN, JASO MA1
2006

if it was real race oil it would say 'race only' on the sheet

so it's fine, if you're happy with the price, run it, IMO

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by chzeckmate on 06/09/15 at 20:57:08

50434546545353310 wrote:

That's why I said strike that, the 4T has plenty of ZDDP, and despite being listed as 'racing', it's sheet reads like a general use oil, so I don't think it's real racing oil, which is formulated differently, just a high quality synthetic with plenty of ZDDP and the name racing for marketing reasons

Oh, I didn't see the "strike that" part for some reason...So, basically they just label it "Racing" to jack up the price...Well, if the Rotella is just as good but considerably cheaper then I think I'll still switch to that and save some loot.

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by Art Webb on 06/09/15 at 21:00:09

if it's cheaper, i probably would too (I don't know the price of the Mobile 1) but I sure wouldn't change it before I got my use out of it
actually has a bit more zddp than Rotella, it seems
IIRC Rotella had 1200, enough, but not a bit more ;D

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 06/10/15 at 05:16:07

I ask you, what's better then a good old fashioned internet oil discussion? Keep it going...I'm just making some popcorn.

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by Art Webb on 06/10/15 at 08:37:45

We must love it, we never seem to get tired of discussing it ;D

Title: Re: Will air cooled engines overheat during long i
Post by Tony from tdot on 06/10/15 at 11:28:13

up here in toronto, weve got some of the worst traffic in North America. If im not lane splitting my way to the front of the pack, im turning off my thumper and doing the fred flinstone walk cuz she gets HOT!