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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1433693559 Message started by Kris01 on 06/07/15 at 09:12:38 |
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Title: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by Kris01 on 06/07/15 at 09:12:38 The pulley came from a 1986 EN454. As per instructions on this site I had it professionally machined down to the size of the stock pulley hub. It spins freely and runs true. There's no slack in the splines. It FITS fine. It does not, however, RUN fine! The belt seems to ride up on the teeth like the teeth are not meshing correctly. There's also a grinding sound when a belt tooth tries to mesh with the pulley tooth. It's like the pulley teeth are not quite exactly the same as the stock pulley teeth. Anyone else have a similar problem? I hate to not use this pulley. I really want this to work correctly without chewing up my belt. |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by Dave on 06/07/15 at 09:47:58 There are only a handful of folks that have used this pulley, and as far as I know there have not been any problems. Serowbot used one for a while but did not like the gearing change. MMRanch has used one for a couple of years, and is still running his. I have used mine for about 4,000 miles. I read your thread and went out and looked at my pulley and belt. They both look fine, no wear marks on the belt, the pulley has the top of the teeth all polished up and shiny from the belt....every thing looks just like it should and the wear marks match the marks on the stock pulley. I also measured the teeth on the Kawasaki and Suzuki pulleys and the width of the tooth and space are exactly the same....the Kawasaki teeth are slightly taller - but that should not affect anything as the top of the teeth ride in the grooves of the belt....the belt teeth do not touch the bottom of the pulley (that is why the bottom of the pulley teeth are never polished shiny by the belt). Look closely to see if there isn't some bolt sticking out and touching the belt someplace, or a part of the belt guard that doesn't like the larger diameter of the pulley. I can't see anything about the pulley teeth that would not mesh with the belt. You can take your pulley off and see how the belt fits into the teeth if you still believe something about the pulley teeth is wrong. |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by Art Webb on 06/07/15 at 09:53:16 Did you double check the machining? Never trust someone else's work on something like this, (or your own for that matter) always verify |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by Kris01 on 06/07/15 at 12:11:43 I know it's the pulley that's the problem. I can see the belt trying to mesh with the pulley. If you look from the back of the bike along the belt as you spin the tire, you can see the belt jumping a little each time it tries to mesh with the pulley teeth. I think the grinding sound is the belt teeth not playing nice with the pulley. This is even after aligning the rear tire with the adjusters and a tape measure. I can watch the edge of the pulley while it's spinning and see absolutely no wobble. I even just barely touched the edge of the pulley and spun it (with belt connected for tension) to try to see if I could feel a small wobble. The machine work is dead on. It spins absolutely true. |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/07/15 at 13:03:58 Id feel of the leading edges of the teeth on the pulley. Run a finger between them all. How's the tension on the belt? This has been done successfully, so,either the belt is deformed or the pulley has been damaged, but, id probably be considering removing the rear tire and securing the bike, (hold that thought) Silver marker, black marker, belt tight, too tight for riding. Roll the bike gently, when you feel it snag, mark the belt, silver 1, pulley, black 1, See if you can find a spo on the pulley or belt that tends to grab. Or is this Every tooth, every time? |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by jachase1980 on 06/07/15 at 13:32:45 maybe there is a difference in the years of the LTD tooth of the pulley. I am currently having this done with a machinist and he showed me a difference in the width of the teeth on the pulley to the stock one. If I remember it was something in the likes of .002in smaller at the top of the teeth. He didnt think it would make any difference but he did say there was a possibility that it still wouldnt work. |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/07/15 at 13:51:24 2 thousandth s , that just doesn't Sound like enough to be a problem.. Guys, if the pulley is straight, no dings to catch, and the belt doesn't have any obvious distortions to keep it from slipping tooth to groove right, could the answer be putting a radius on the trailing edge of the teeth? |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by jachase1980 on 06/07/15 at 14:05:19 Is it possible the guard not reinstalled back correctly, missing a rubber spacer or something? Is it grinding with the cover guard off? Could be the smallest thing and I would imagine those nubs would make a horrible grinding sound hitting metal and they are in sync with the teeth on the pulley so might appear that its the teeth. |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by Dave on 06/07/15 at 15:14:33 Take the pulley cover off the side of the engine so you can look at the pulley in operation. Then jack up the bike and spin the rear wheel and watch to see what happens. I have a belt off a 2001 that I can loan you so that you don't screw up your good belt while you try to figure out what is going on. |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/07/15 at 15:59:27 Might not matter, but I'd mark the direction of the belt rotation before I pulled it. Heyyy, maybe that IS the problem, the teeth are slightly tilted from accelerating... |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by Dane Allen on 06/08/15 at 10:47:15 57484E4954536252625A48440F3D0 wrote:
Oh, good call!! ;) I second the question of pre-modification belt travel direction. |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by Kris01 on 06/08/15 at 12:01:04 Well, the belt guards are not installed yet and the bike is still in the air. I did ride it once to the end of the driveway and back. It's pretty loud. You can spin the rear tire by hand and watch each side of the belt try to engage the pulley teeth. 1st left side then right, etc. It's like the belt is wobbling over the teeth. When I set the belt tension I did check to see that the rear tire was running true with a tape measure. I measured the leading edge of the swing arm pivot to the the center of the rear axle bolt. The rear tire is not cocked to one side or other. The belt should run just as straight. I have zero problems with the stock belt/pullies. The Kawasaki pulley looks completely undamaged in any way shape or form. The teeth are nice and smooth and show no signs of abuse. The stock belt only has ~4500 miles and I don't abuse it. Both sides of the belt teeth look the same. The belt doesn't even look worn. |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by Dave on 06/08/15 at 12:22:10 Well something is not as is should be - as the Kawasaki pulley does work fine with the Suzuki belt. Most likely the Kawasaki and Suzuki both had the belt made by Bando. There is very little room for error in the machining of the front pulley - if he machined it wrong it won't fit between the engine case and pulley cover without rubbing. Did you have the back wheel off and maybe interchange the spacers on the back axle? Did your machinist weld the cover plates on instead of knocking down the tabs with a punch......maybe that distorted the pulley or side plates somehow. Take the pulley off and see if the stock pulley and Kawasaki pulley both engage the loose belt the same way when you roll the pulleys in the belt by hand. You are the only one able to look the bike over and figure out what is wrong...we are not there to look at it with you. |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/08/15 at 15:01:46 What ifhe got it too narrow? |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by mjs3790225 on 06/08/15 at 15:33:41 I remember when I first did this mod I had my belt tension wrong the first time around it. It sounded pretty stressed out. After I loosened it up it sounded right though. Take some pictures and post what you are looking at with the belt jumping around. Maybe that will jog some answers. |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/08/15 at 17:10:58 Well, how goes it? |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by Kris01 on 06/08/15 at 20:39:46 152E2334252932342F272A35460 wrote:
It's not rubbing anything. I've quadruple checked EVERYTHING 10 times. 152E2334252932342F272A35460 wrote:
The back wheel has been off exactly once in the life of the bike. When I replaced the rear tire a few months ago the first thing I did was mark the spacers L and R with a paint pen. They are installed correctly (assuming the factory didn't screw up). 152E2334252932342F272A35460 wrote:
Nope. Pulley is completely unmodified (except the machine work and I put 1 light coat of black paint on it). 152E2334252932342F272A35460 wrote:
I actually tried that before I turned any wrenches. I rolled the Kawasaki pulley along the belt and didn't feel/hear anything out of the ordinary. Everything seems to mesh correctly until I put tension on the belt. Without any tension (rolling belt on pulley by hand), it all seems as smooth as glass. Do you think an overly tight belt would cause this? I did the 90° twist method but I think it might be a little tight. 152E2334252932342F272A35460 wrote:
See ya for dinner? Breakfast maybe? ;D |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by Serowbot on 06/08/15 at 22:40:12 Mine was noisy,... I assumed it was my bad machining...(based on everyone else's positive experience)... ..but, it did sound like each tooth was scrubbing to engage... (kinda' like the belt was coated in chewing gum)... I rode it that way for a couple hundred miles,... but ultimately, decided I didn't like the gear spacing in the lower gears... Can't say for sure,.. but I think Kris is seeing the same issue I had... Can't say why either... Sorry Kris,... I never pursued the issue, although I did post it, some time back... I was sure it was my caveman grinder work at fault, at the time... Could it have anything to do with the age, and dryness of the belt?... Mine,.. had over 20k miles, and I live in the driest conditions you can imagine... In a way,.. I felt like if I had tightened the belt.. it might have pulled it into the teeth better,... but with 12" shocks I needed the slack for shock travel... With that slack,.. the belt seemed to want to ride above the teeth, rather than settle in... That's my experience,... in a nutshell |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/09/15 at 07:39:04 If you have access to another belt and you're reasonably skilled with hand held grinders, might do some shaping.. But, I'd wanna have eyes on it to even start to know what is wrong. Shield off, rear off the ground, good lighting, video ,roll forward and backward. That's as close to us being there. Then Sprinkle some corn starch on the top of the bottom of the belt, roll tire backwards and see what that does. |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by verslagen1 on 06/09/15 at 07:52:13 The Kawasaki belt is taller and rounded so if there is an issue its got to be our belt square edges catching on the edges of the pulley. I'd go in on the pulley and round the edges some. |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by Dave on 06/09/15 at 08:10:32 I wonder if the black paint is making the pulley sticky to the belt? I only painted the outside and did not apply any paint on the teeth.....it would take very little time for the belt to wear the paint off of the teeth where it needs to be worn away. My offer for a sacrificial belt still is still good. I can send you a belt to put on the bike and use for a day or two to wear the paint off and see if the pulley will get used to the new home! |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/09/15 at 09:21:35 Is anything wrong with that belt Dave? |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by Dave on 06/09/15 at 10:19:55 607F797E63645565556D7F73380A0 wrote:
The one I am offering was on a 2001 that most likely was run a bit tighter than it should have been.....it has those telltale little cracks on the outside from the belt being stretched a bit. It should run just fine as I have seen several belts like this on bikes running around. I was offering it as the Guinea Pig to see if the pulley would chew up the belt or not. |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/09/15 at 11:35:45 Well, mine had 20,000 miles on it, I accelerated as hard as possible a lot and just generally rode hard and it had at least one hole, poke a finger end in, maybe another, can not remember,, I was gonna say that if the belt that is on it survives, okay, if not, then there is a spare. I wish we could SEE what is happening. And the distance between the inside of the edges. If the belt is touching there , could be a problem. |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by oldNslow on 06/09/15 at 12:02:25 JOG wrote: Quote:
There's a possibility. Any chance one of the flanges on the pulley somehow got bent in just enough to keep the belt from sliding all the way down on to the teeth. Even if it was just bent in one spot it might cause what you're seeing. |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by Kris01 on 06/09/15 at 12:10:57 Dave, thanks for the offer but I don't think another belt would do anything different. I've put the stock pulley back on for fear of ruining a good belt. I just might (when I have time) put the Kawasaki pulley back on loosen the belt some and see if that changes anything. I'll probably remove the paint from the pulley too. I don't think that's the issue but it couldn't hurt. The flanges on the side of the pulley are as straight and even as they can be. The belt rides fine on the new pulley until I put tension on it with the adjusters. That kinda leads me to my first statement about loosening the belt a little. Maybe it just needs a little more slack since the Kawasaki belt is not exactly the same as our belt. |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by Dave on 06/09/15 at 12:26:01 Well I am running a bit of slack, as the Cafe' bike no longer has a horizontal swing arm with the 13" shocks. This causes the belt to tighten when the shocks are compressed....so you have to run the belt a bit looser. The reason that I was offering this belt was not because I thought it would be any different - but as a way to ride it without taking a chance on screwing up your good belt. If it didn't work out.....you could still go back to the stock pulley and your belt. You really shouldn't give up on this.....it does work. |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/09/15 at 13:57:08 Bummer |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by Kris01 on 06/09/15 at 19:27:30 754E4354454952544F474A55260 wrote:
The bad thing is, I DO give up on this...a lot! ...and put the stocker back on. Then I get an idea and put the Kawasaki pulley back on. Rinse, repeat. I'm tired of working on it but excited to make it work...hopefully. I don't want to have to convert to chain! :( Again, thanks for the belt offer but it's so noisy trying to engage the teeth that I guarantee it would destroy the belt in no time. I have to make mine work. I may have some free time tomorrow afternoon. I'll try again and keep you guys posted. This will probably make the 5th or 6th time trying to get this to work. |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by Dave on 06/10/15 at 02:17:16 Well lets see what kind of success jachase1980 has with his. As he stated, and I forgot to mention....the rear axle does end up all the way forward in the adjustment slot to get the belt to have enough slack. Maybe that was the problem you were having....was the belt being to darn tight. |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by Kris01 on 06/10/15 at 18:41:01 Swapped to the Kawasaki pulley...AGAIN. This time I'm leaving it on there for a while until I can figure this out! :D I gave it a little more slack this time and it ran better but still not good. I left the back end in the air and ran it up to around 20-25 mph in 3rd gear. It was a little noisy about 95% of the time. Just belt noise I guess. Maybe that's normal? I've never "ridden" 25 mph and stood beside the bike listening before! :D The other 5% of the time got really noisy for about a second. Kind of a grinding sound like the belt wasn't engaging the pulley correctly. It doesn't seem to be a specific part of the pulley or the belt. I rolled the tire in the air by hand and watched for when it was "grinding". It seemed to be random. Also, after having aligned the rear tire, I noticed the belt rides all the way to the left of the rear pulley. I pushed it to the center and spun the tire by hand and it went back to the left. The Kawasaki pulley has no gap at all between the flanges and the side of the belt. Is this normal? |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/10/15 at 18:52:29 Find the spot,Mark belt and pulley, find out if it's random. |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by Kris01 on 06/10/15 at 18:53:21 Yeah, that's what I did. I'm very frustrated with this! |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by jachase1980 on 06/10/15 at 19:37:28 Snap a pic of where you have your tension set on your belt and wheel aligned, I will do the same and post on this thread. If you are still hearing the noise roll the belt around in neutral with you hand on the rear pulley that is where the noise that was coming from on mine. If you feel any vibration on your hand in the rear pulley you KNOW its not the the front pulley and that it is either tension or alignment. |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/10/15 at 21:10:17 0F362D377475440 wrote:
Well, marks did what? |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by jachase1980 on 06/11/15 at 08:34:49 Ok here is where I have my rear wheel set at on the marks |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by jachase1980 on 06/11/15 at 08:40:41 Here is a little wear on the belt from 3 hrs or tinkering with the tension. Took the bike for a hour ride today, this was pic before the ride and it looks like no other wear on the belt was done. I checked the alignment and rode no hands at 30 and 40 to see if it was any wobble or pulling to either left or right. All seemed a ok. Is there any burs from the milling on the outer side of the gear where the gear attaches to the trans shaft? I had to work mine on and off to chisel off the burs to get the gear all the way in where it was supposed to be. |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by cafecarl on 06/11/15 at 17:20:43 Perhaps I over simplify, but when I line up my rear wheel, I don't worry about anything else besides the belt alinment i.e. how it runs in the pulleys. I spin the wheel and adjust so it runs dead center if I can. Get the tension right and I don't worry about marks or measurements. Without changing spacers, I figure, that's as good as it gets. |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by Dave on 06/11/15 at 18:00:57 Those marks in the belt looks like you have a rock or stone wedged in the bottom of the teeth....on either the front or rear pulley. |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/11/15 at 20:01:57 Definitely something that doesn't move in a pulley. Id be running a finger in every groove on the front pulley first. A mirror might be helpful. |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by Kris01 on 06/14/15 at 18:00:09 http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1349970207/30 Hmmm, I guess I'm not alone. This is an old thread but informative nonetheless. No update yet. I'm still working on it. There's definitely more noise than stock. I really don't want to ruin my belt. 2B2C3575717F76747473460 wrote:
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by WD on 06/15/15 at 19:47:11 Don't remember where you are exactly in the not so great state of TN... but if you're close enough, bring it over and we'll check it out. I'm 20 miles NE of the Memphis limits line off TN-14 at the Tipton County line. And I have a spare belt as well if yours gets chewed up. |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by Kris01 on 06/16/15 at 07:48:39 Thanks WD but I took it off last night and put the stock pulley back on. I'm tired of messing with it. I've tried everything I know and still don't feel comfortable with the way it's sounding. Maybe I'm just paranoid with it being louder than stock but something in the drivetrain is complaining. I'll probably sell it and go with chain. I'm just too frustrated with it to deal with it anymore. |
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Title: Re: Unhappy with Kawasaki pulley Post by Dave on 06/16/15 at 08:18:57 Can you take a photo of the pulley that shows what the teeth look like? I installed a new pulley on mine, and it works fine. It could be that on a used pulley the tip of the teeth have worn a bit flat and no longer have a rounded edge that allows the belt to engage smoothly. As you belt shows....the belt has rounded corners and the pulley will need to have rounded corners on the teeth as well. |
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