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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> Arizona cartoons... /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1432916418 Message started by Serowbot on 05/29/15 at 09:20:17 |
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Title: Arizona cartoons... Post by Serowbot on 05/29/15 at 09:20:17 They're specifically inviting bikers this time... :-/... I'm puzzled as to the significance of this... :-?... ...but, it's getting a lot of press here... you have to wonder if the press is intentionally trying to create an incident...(or maybe you don't have to wonder)... I'm not enticed... ;D... |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/29/15 at 09:59:18 Grasping a concept, one developed by living, trying to get someone else to See,just for a minute,the world,THROUGH that concept, phhht,, Pretty sure my efforts are wasted, BUT I'll take a Shorthand swing at it. Is it Nice to have a contest to draw something that some group has,among themselves,a rule against, and you KNOW it's gonna PISS them off if you do it? No, itsnot,, But you know what? Life's tuff, sometimes people offend others. I think it's a bit childish to get ones turban in a twist over someone drawing (my understanding is, it doesn't Matter if it's a beautiful drawing and totally respectful, still against their Rule, and if im wrong,changes nothing) The problem I THINK is there is some growing resentment in communities where immigrants want American law to change to reflect the place they came from. BaconSandwich,, go Back,or assimilate, or be offended,quietly Or, you don't LIKE us drawing? Come stop us... Id be shocked if there is one ( foreigners can't answer yet ) who understands and can explain that Separation of church and state thing. Then, the interstate commerce clause. Better have a Blacks law dictionary and work through the root word in regulate. The point is that they have intentionally perverted the meaning of the words and sold it to a People who are unable to see the fraud. In short, they don't like it, they can get over it, leave, change THEIR religious law or, what I EXPECT, WE will change Our law.. This is where you go back to the top and read the intro. No tyranny without necessity,, they NEED to maintain peace, We all want peace, Let's see how peace gets saved,at what cost and to whom. Re: Black s dictionary, you'll need an OLD one, because the definition of things has been changed to KEEP you from understanding the Original Intent,creating fraudulent ability to concentrate power. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by oldNslow on 05/29/15 at 10:44:26 (1) Quote:
(2) Quote:
(3) Quote:
JOG; you are absolutely correct about #s (1) and (2) Unfortunately I think you are probably correct about # (3) also. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by old.indian on 05/29/15 at 19:35:57 Immigrants aren't the only ones who enter a community and want the local culture to change to suit their priorities. I lived in a small blue collar mill town. Then it was "discovered" by the Boston Yuppie wanttobes. It wasn't long before the newcomers were wanting to make changes to the little mill town to make it like the places that they had moved to the little mill town to get away from..... ::) |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by old.indian on 05/29/15 at 19:46:51 Personally, I find the whole "Cartoon of the Prophet" contest about as intelligent an idea as poking a (very large) wasp nest with a (very) short stick .... |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/29/15 at 20:07:12 73707832757278757D721C0 wrote:
Correct, but not the point. If I wanna do donuts in my front yard from two to four pm every Saturday and I don't live in the city and you don't want me to, tuff... Clearly antagonistic behavior, but this REALLY IS America, and if someone wants to hold a contest that some groups find offensive, well, tuff. Get over it. They may not like it, but nobody is being hurt. Unless someone decides to take the law into their own hands and decide to punish the bad people. Maybe they should protest, take action, strike first, buy up all the pencils. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Serowbot on 05/29/15 at 22:44:07 For my part,.. I'm going to stock up on Sharpies... That'll put marzipan in yer' pie plate, Bingo... ;D... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by old.indian on 05/30/15 at 15:47:38 I may be more than a wee bit cynical, but I'm always suspicious of ulterior motives when it comes to things and events like this "cartoon contest". What are they trying to accomplish ??? I'm aware that the media is stirring the pot in hopes of gaining a higher ratings share. But what is to be gained, and by whom, by this baiting and hate mongering ??? Usually when deluged by reasons why we should fear some "thing" it is soon followed by how this group, or candidate, is going to protect me from the "evil" if I will contribute $$$ and/or Vote for said candidate.. "VOTE FOR ME AND I'LL MAKE YOU FREE!!!" You would think that Americans would learn that "hate mongering" ends in tragedy. Sooner or later some weak mind will take these diatribes to heart and murder a doctor in his church because some religious group doesn't agree with his medical ethics. Or open fire at a political meeting because some one declares that political group evil and that they "deserve to die".. The saddest part is that the fear/hate mongers refuse to accept any responsibility for their actions.... I think it would be wise to look under the surface and ascertain the real agenda behind these "contest" and where the $$$$ are coming from to support them..... |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Serowbot on 05/30/15 at 16:08:52 I imagine it's haters of Muslims... ...and the hope is that all this display of rage will discourage immigration, and maybe even make some Muslims here,.. leave... The problem is,.. those will be the wrong Muslims... Muslims that don't want any trouble, and are fearful... On the other hand,.. the raging loons that want to kill us, will only be encouraged... Yea protest!... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by WebsterMark on 05/30/15 at 17:45:43 What was the motivation behind the Broadway musical The Book of Mormon? Did any of you question why it was written or performed? Did you have any empathy towards Mormons who were upset because they were presented in a manner they objected to? Had there been violence, would you have said the writers asked for it? |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by WebsterMark on 05/30/15 at 17:52:50 I think it would be wise to look under the surface and ascertain the real agenda behind these "contest" and where the $$$$ are coming from to support them..... The organizer is a former Marine and his motivation is pretty clear. It's on his t-shirt: Fxxk Islam. The Texas cartoon organizer was Pam Gellar and her motivation is well known, Neither appear to be about money. They are not Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson types. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/30/15 at 18:15:30 But where's the money coming from? Ohh, gee, wouldn't it be bad if there was a nice societal problem with violence,,, gee, what ever would we DO? Most would demand that the government step in and,,, You lose, Soros has dumped millions into creating racial tension, hot spots are created. Now, a bit of religious conflict to stir in, They need a problem big enough to make their presence and power The Answer Before the economy causes it. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by WebsterMark on 05/30/15 at 19:16:31 There isn't any real money needed for that phoenix cartoon event. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by old.indian on 05/30/15 at 20:07:14 The organizer is a former Marine and his motivation is pretty clear. It's on his t-shirt: Fxxk Islam. "Former Marine" Uhu ??? I wonder what his MOS was ??? Because he sounds like one of the REMFs that used racial slurs about the Black and Hispanic grunts. >:( I wonder what his DD-214 has to say, or if he even has one.... Amazing how many wanttobe badasses come out of the woodwork claiming to have been Marines, or Airborne, or Rangers, or Special Forces ..... The truth usually comes out and usually they never even made it past the recruiter, if they even got that far. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by MnSpring on 05/30/15 at 20:14:09 I believe the fault lies on both, parties. One, the cartoon contest people. A primary reason is to inflame another group. (In THIS Country, their RIGHT) Not a Privilege, but a RIGHT. (well till, King Bama takes that, 'RIGHT' away) The other, for a group of people, to react, by, ’SHOOTING’ Someone! How different is this than, two people, wanting a ‘cake’ made for them to celebrate, something? They SOUGHT OUT, someone who would NOT, make their cake, because of that persons convictions? They Sued, and WON? Is this cartoon contest, fueled by someone, for some reason? (Sure Lots of reasons) But, it would become, a, ’No Event”. IF, the people who a cartoon was made of, did NOTHING. Then, (It's no fun anymore), the people doing the cartoon contests, would not do them. So, No One has ever made, a Cartoon about Joseph Smith, or Jesus? And if they had, What, ‘Avenging Angels, or, ‘Knights Templar’ SHOT AT SOMEONE, for doing that ??? |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 05/31/15 at 04:07:54 A muslim going to a prayer meeting. A biker, "ex-Marine", with a "F**K ISLAM" shirt, outside that meeting. Which one of them is more likely to be armed? |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by WebsterMark on 05/31/15 at 06:31:55 Whose armed isn't the question. Whose most likely to use it without provocation is. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Art Webb on 05/31/15 at 07:14:42 Yup, possession isn't the problem, intent is Like someone said earlier, if the Muslims ignore the event, (likely) and the extremists do, too (unlikely) no one gets hurt, and the 'biker ex marine' if he is indeed looking to stir the pot (likely) gets disappointed Then it becomes a non event On the other hand, if the event is attacked, it shows clearly an attempt by a fringe group who claim a certain religion to force their views and beliefs (sharia law) on others It's interesting how we don't accept this from Christians (who don't currently murder folks who don't follow Christian law) but do from Muslims |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 05/31/15 at 09:04:47 6F5D5A4B4C5D4A75594A53380 wrote:
Hard to fire without a gun ;) PS. "whose" and "who's" mean different things. For the sake of clarity, it's worth bearing that in mind as not everyone reading this thread.....(oh, why do I bother?) |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 05/31/15 at 09:09:22 Sharia law, in Phoenix? I seriously doubt the muslims in Phoenix are trying to impose Sharia law. Much the same way that, generally, Christians aren't trying to impose "the world was created in 6 days/talking snake" on people living in Phoenix. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by MnSpring on 05/31/15 at 10:02:20 Quote:
Yep, it is. So no one has a gun. Just use knives. Oh, no one has a knife. Just use a Bat, Well no one has Bat. OK then, just use a Tire Iron, But no one has a Car. Then, just use Rocks, and Stone them. A, 'thing', does not create violence, a, 'attitude', does. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by oldNslow on 05/31/15 at 10:25:02 Quote:
Well, if our Muslim friends (and their politically correct, progressive apologists) get their way, that's pretty much what we will be reduced to eventually. The UK will probably make it back to the sixth century first, but , never fear, the USA will be along soon enough. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/31/15 at 10:26:33 I don't know about you guys, but I have always had bills. I have never had resources to just pack up and leave and go somewhere to stir up trouble. I don't know how these guys do it. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Art Webb on 05/31/15 at 10:50:49 42657C63795A786F79666F730A0 wrote:
Then what woulds you call the forbidding of anyone, Muslim or not, drawing Mohamed? It's pushing your religion on those who don't follow it, at the very least The protests didn't erupt in violence, after all, but there was a large police presence to help insure that Quote "Hard to fire without a gun" Knives, rocks, sticks, it's easy to find a weapon if you're determined to hurt someone, we did it for thousands of years before we ever knew what a gun was Hands and feet work surprisingly well, too |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 05/31/15 at 10:57:53 04271A393B20272E490 wrote:
Poking a wasps' nest isn't an attitude (thanks, Old.Indian). Invading Poland isn't an attitude. The gathering together of an armed group outside a prayer meeting isn't an attitude. The proposed willful killing of US citizens/US military bases on US soil by a US Government department isn't just an attitude, it's a thing. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Art Webb on 05/31/15 at 11:04:08 4B6C756A70537166706F667A030 wrote:
Stick a loaded gun anywhere, anywhere at all, and if no one touches it, it won't kill anyone if a loaded gun is picked up by someone with killing in their heart, they, not the gun, may kill someone |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 05/31/15 at 11:11:14 043A3B37253938560 wrote:
Bagdad was the world's centre of learning. The West owes it's understanding of mathematics, medicine, and astronomy to those that studied there......so, the sixth century? |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 05/31/15 at 11:14:37 33202625373030520 wrote:
All the more reason to disarm? Surely? |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/31/15 at 12:09:50 Bad guys historically attack where guns aren't. Can't remember the years, Louisiana was seeing car jacking, drivers pulled out, run over, it was awful.. Then the governor declared that people could defend themselves. In just a matter of weeks, after several car jackers died, screaming and writhing in pain, gutshot, car jacking ended. The theater shooting in Colorado? The Only theater with rules against concealed carry in the area. Florida was seeing tourists mugged. Solutions? Instructions for tourists, hide maps, anything, luggage, whatever might make you stand out. No good. New rule, car rental companies required to remove any company logo. No good. Legislation is passed allowing self defense, Problem solved. Attacks on tourists drop, no longer more likely than the next guy. Everywhere strict gun control is, we see more gun related crime. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Serowbot on 05/31/15 at 12:24:49 233C3A3D20271626162E3C307B490 wrote:
In America... Because, we have open borders between states, and any gun restrictions are just a state or two away from circumvention... This ain't such a problem in countries that don't allow such easy access to firearms... Firearm deaths per 100,000 people... Japan = 0.06 UK = 0.25 US = 10.30 |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by MnSpring on 05/31/15 at 12:29:16 Posted by: HovisPresley: " ...All the more reason to disarm? Surely? ..." Are we talking to Piers Morgan? OK, No Guns, nowhere. You believe that will stop violence. Now this club lays on the ground, it does NOT, hit someone all by it's self. A, Person, has to use it. OK, get rid of all, Clubs. Guess we are back to rocks ;D Very Few guns in the UK, compared to other countries. So their, IS, less crimes committed with, 'firearms'. But ! Their is NOT, less Crimes. How many firearms are allowed in France? And what was recently used in France. Do you think, it is possible, that, if the Artists, had the Freedom, to carry a firearm, and knew how to use it. It would have not been a, 'sitting Duck' event? Or course we will never know. Many years ago, listening to a PBS station. (PBS = Public Broadcast, and is well known for, it's, Symphony type music, and it's ultra liberal, reporting) It was just after, Florida passed the, Right To Carry Concealed law. A PBS reporter, was asking a convenience store owner what he felt about the new law. He said: "Yea got robbed every month, some times, two times a month. But the new law, not robbed once in the last 6 months, and it's all due to the new law, and the sign I put in the window". The PBS reported asked what sign. The store owner replied: "The one that says, 'Free Coffee to anyone showing a Carry License'," Then points to the coffee machine, and says: "Which one,of those 6 people, have a gun". Let's say, we lived in a world, with out, firearms, knives, clubs, or even rocks. Someone goes into a bank, jumps over the counter, takes the cash. No one can stop them, because their no, (see above) Then drives away, in a Red Ford truck, with Goodyear tires. So, it's clear, by banning ALL red Ford Trucks, with Goodyear tires, it will stop all Bank Robberies. Silly? Yea. But it brings the point home; Firearms do not cause any more crime, than, rocks, clubs, hammers, screwdrivers, knives, or even, Cricket Bats. It is the Person, not the object. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by oldNslow on 05/31/15 at 12:41:11 Quote:
That's a bit of a stretch. And even if it was entirely true it's irrelevant. The new Caliphate that present day Muslims are dreaming about, won't bear much resemblance to the supposed glories of that civilization. The systematic destruction of the artifacts of their own culture by the ISIS idiots ought to be example enough of that. The civilization they are working to create is going to be one of savagery, ignorance, and theological tyranny. Islam is a crackpot religion founded by a psychotic, megalomaniac pedophile. It is evil and indefensible as far as I am concerned. And defending evil in the name of tolerance is simply making a virtue out of cowardice. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 05/31/15 at 12:43:59 Here's an interesting 3 minute cartoon on the subject of American and gun culture ; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDCh4-pKrrE |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 05/31/15 at 12:53:58 7A4445495B4746280 wrote:
(Bold type mine) Quote oldNslow: "And even if it was entirely true it's irrelevant." How is it irrelevant? It seems strange to refer to the West going back to the 6th century under Islamic rule, and then refer to the present day muslims. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 05/31/15 at 13:00:11 615F5E52405C5D330 wrote:
Heavy words, heavy words...... I'm certainly not a coward. I certainly don't defend evil. Tell me about a religion that started off with a talking snake, then we can talk about crackpot ;) |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by MnSpring on 05/31/15 at 13:07:14 Quote:
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D LOL, what a moronic, piece of total lies! It would take 10+ pages, to correct the LIES, in that clip. Out and Out Lies. Lies by omission of fact. And Lies, distorting the truth. But hey, what else does one expect from Michael Moor? “I’m ‘Offended’, But, guess what, not gonna shoot someone, (or even throw rocks at them) Of course, if you, truly believe that, Ya wanna buy some Ocean Front property in AZ ? |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 05/31/15 at 13:10:18 It's a joke! It's a cartoon! ::) Do you wanna buy London Bridge? |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by MnSpring on 05/31/15 at 13:47:20 Quote:
I believe the 'old' London Bridge, Really IS, in AZ. Posted by: HovisPresley: It's a joke! It's a cartoon! Yes, and No. It, IS, a Joke, to people who understand, 'real'. But to Moore, (the creator/funder/promoter), he, actually believes. And he actually, has, people, that believe him, when he Lies. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by MnSpring on 05/31/15 at 13:56:26 Kinna like the, ‘Cartoonists of Mohammed’, Probably 95% or even more, of those that practice that religion, KNOW, they are a Joke. But what to do with the much smaller percent? ‘Appease’ them, kiss their Azz, and let them do what they want? (And call it, ’tolerant’) Or, ’Teach’, them, ‘killing people, is NOT, accepted Behavior.? |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by oldNslow on 05/31/15 at 13:57:44 Quote:
Again; irrelevant. What I believe or don't believe about Judaism or Christianity has nothing to do with my opinion about Islam. That comment is just a red herring. If you defend Islam you are indeed defending evil. And I'm not just talking about so called "radical Islam" but Islam as it is the rationale for public policy in most of the middle east. Our enlightened allies the Saudis for example, who are actually advertising for more executioners, because they seem to have a glut of folks who need their heads chopped off for insulting the prophet, and various other violations of Sharia law for which decapitation is the designated punishment. I'm sure you can think of your own examples from Iran, Afghanistan etc. Hell, we have even had some "Honor killings right here in the US. Husbands killing their wives for some transgression of Islamic doctrine, Fathers killing their daughters for desiring to date an infidel. I bet you can dig up a bunch from the UK too if you care to. There is no nuance here. It's a simple yes or no proposition. Is this kind of behavior OK or not, evil or not? And please spare me any sanctimonious crap about "moderate Muslims" and so on. Anyone who doesn't condemn this stuff is complicit. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 05/31/15 at 14:57:48 I believe that killing a person in the name of (any) religion is wrong. In addition, I believe that the love of money/power is a religion. PS. Remember that Osama Bin Laden was a Saudi, whose family lived in the US ;) (((:~{> |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by pgambr on 05/31/15 at 15:08:53 Quote:
Presented with no comment. http://www.barenakedislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/isis-decapitation-eight-syria-soldier-hama-500x285.jpg http://www.barenakedislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/32653e778a0f98a0dbe4b731bf650d-vi1.jpg http://www.catholic.org/files/images/media/2014/08/11/14077706461961_700.jpg Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 05/31/15 at 16:08:45 Shall we explore the Bible for acts of violence against non-believers? Samuel L Jackson.....pulp fiction? PS. Two heads are better than one. ;D |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by pgambr on 05/31/15 at 16:22:46 I'm afraid you chose the wrong movie to site, it is an all time favorite of mine. “Do you read the Bible, Brett? Well there’s this passage I’ve got memorized – sort of fits this occasion. Ezekiel 25:17.” Then Jackson goes on to deliver what appears to be a tremendously dramatic Bible exhortation: “The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother’s keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.” The thing is, the quotation above is not at all a proper rendering of Ezekiel 25:17. The actual verse reads as follows: Ezekiel 25:17 And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 05/31/15 at 17:04:28 3E292F232C3C4E0 wrote:
Wow, I'm impressed! My Aramaic is next to useless! |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by pgambr on 05/31/15 at 17:16:50 This movie has some of the best scenes or one liners in cinematography history. "Royal with cheese" - Preceded the Ezekiel scene "Do I have a sign on my house?" - After they shot Marvin (not PC, yet hilarious) "Diner scene at the end" - The wallet that says "Bad M**ther F**ker" I'm a Tarantino fan, he's truly brilliant in a twisted manner. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 05/31/15 at 17:28:29 Agreed 8-) Tarantino films have some of the best dialogue ever! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn4VJGvh27A |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/31/15 at 17:35:46 382E39243C29243F4B0 wrote:
In America... Because, we have open borders between states, and any gun restrictions are just a state or two away from circumvention... This ain't such a problem in countries that don't allow such easy access to firearms... Firearm deaths per 100,000 people... Japan = 0.06 UK = 0.25 US = 10.30 [/quote] We, the People,are, by law, the owners of the country, not the government. The corruption of the government brought our drug war I prefer our system,broken as it is. This topic is just too complex for a forum. Come visit for a few days,, |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by mpescatori on 06/01/15 at 05:00:29 1F21202C3E22234D0 wrote:
Actually, no, it isn't. It's perhaps a bit off in the historical timeline, but the world-famous centers of excellence for learning were, in historical order, Thebes in ancient Egypt, Alexandria (founded by Alexander the Great) the city whose Great Library became one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, and then Baghdad, because once all the expansion wars ended the Caliphs (=Kings, or rather, Priest Kings) realized there was more to gain by collecting wisdom than there was by forging swords. The expression "Swords into Plowshares" is not a modern British political principle; it was practiced by the Caliphs who civilized a Middle east which had fallen into disrepair after the fall of the Roman Empire, and was such a well known principle you will find it, surprise surprise, in KJV Isaiah 2:4 "And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." In the days when Christian Kings and Bishops were preaching that bathing and personal hygene was work of the devil, arabs had taken on Graeco-Roman (and Egyptian) tradition and built Hammàms (public baths, separate for men and women). When the last Moorish King fled Granada when the Spaniards (re)conquered Spain, these latter were described as "bloodthirsty, fiendish, filthy animals" who stank and never washed. (Interestingly enough, the same was said of Cortès and Pissarro by the Aztecs and Incas, untrustworthy, greedy and filthy) As long as the Silk Roads were trod by European and Arabic merchants, come the end of the last Crusade in the Holy Land, it was mostly skirmishes at sea, but Christians were so busy killing each other in religious wars the Muslims were leading relatively quiet lives. Come Christopher Columbus and his blowing the whistle, the Silk Routes were gradually abandoned and Christians found it more economical to rape, pillage and plunder two entire continents than to continue profitable business as usual. The result is two continents whose people were mass murdered, whose scientific knowledge was erased, whose theology was ignored and whose legacy was burned to cinders. May we thank the Spaniards for all that happened south of the Rio Grande and neo-Englishmen for what happened north of the river. You're getting old, and very slow... |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by oldNslow on 06/01/15 at 05:54:06 Quote:
The same distinction could just as well be applied to Ancient Greece, Italy few yeas later and of course China, although as far as China is concerned, not necessarily so much with regard to western thought. Quote:
So, it's insults now. That's a very convincing argument ::) No matter. I suspect that on the issue or kowtowing to our muslim friends It's going to be a horse race as to whether The UK or Italy goes down the drain first. We are circling it over here but, although I'm not real optimistic, I think there is time to turn things around if folks wake up. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 06/01/15 at 06:11:30 @mpescatori Yet again, what an enlightened, educated and informative post. It was a real pleasure to read. ......................................................................... None of my business, but I fail to see how calling someone 'old' and 'slow' is an insult to someone who willingly calls themselves 'old and slow'. Unless of course it refers to the LS650 ;D |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by pgambr on 06/01/15 at 07:29:12 Quote:
That in of in itself is a very insightful statement although not particularly accurate. The timeline analogy is off hundreds if not thousands of years off regarding the first two examples you sighted. Perhaps, the pre-Islamic civilizations, or decedents of modern day Muslims had many wonderful accomplishments would be more accurate. Alexander the Great died in roughly 300 BC and the ancient Egypt could go back as far as 3500 BC. Baghdad wasn’t founded until the mid-700s. Muhammad died in 632 and Islam as a religion didn’t take hold till well after his death. Since it’s conception is been one caliphate after another claiming political & spiritual supremacy. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by oldNslow on 06/01/15 at 08:30:08 A few of our home-grown muslims: https://creepingsharia.wordpress.com/2015/06/01/minnesota-muslims-in-america-want-sharia-law-video/ I think the ones I find the most astonishing in this clip are the guys - and the woman- who apparently believe they would be better off and happier living in Somalia than in Minnesota. Maybe they just don't like the cold winters. Possibly they would like an airline ticket instead of an EBT card. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Art Webb on 06/01/15 at 08:30:51 43647D62785B796E78676E720B0 wrote:
nope, disarming doesn't make you safer, just less able to defend yourself |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Art Webb on 06/01/15 at 08:37:28 7167706D75606D76020 wrote:
In America... Because, we have open borders between states, and any gun restrictions are just a state or two away from circumvention... This ain't such a problem in countries that don't allow such easy access to firearms... Firearm deaths per 100,000 people... Japan = 0.06 UK = 0.25 US = 10.30 [/quote] But how many counrties with very restrictive gun laws have murder rates far higher than the US, and those murder rates in the US get a lot smaller when you look at places with more relaxed gun laws (chicago murder rate far higher than Texas, etc) In addition, when Australia got much tougher on guns, their crime rate, violent and otherwise, including gun related crime, spiked sharply |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 06/01/15 at 09:07:07 Quote ArtWebb "But how many counrties with very restrictive gun laws have murder rates far higher than the US, and those murder rates in the US get a lot smaller when you look at places with more relaxed gun laws (chicago murder rate far higher than Texas, etc)" How about naming these countries? On a 'like-for-like' basis. Say Canada, for example... Comparing a city to a state is not a valid comparison to me. I might add that I own 2 (legally held) revolvers, and can provide a list of fire-arms that I've fired on a shooting-range to anyone that's interested. NB. The only country I can think of that it is compulsory to have a fire-arm in the house is Switzerland. Switzerland! |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Paraquat on 06/01/15 at 09:28:46 I'd be interested in seeing the list. --Steve |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 06/01/15 at 09:42:52 5B6A796A7A7E6A7F0B0 wrote:
Here goes; Ruger Mk.III (.22 cal) Glock 17 (9x19mm) Ceska Zbrojovka Grand (.22) Taurus 86 (.357 Magnum) Kalashnikov AK47 (7.62x39mm) Remington 870 12 gauge pump-action Obviously live, not blanks, btw |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Serowbot on 06/01/15 at 10:42:40 I own two of those... :-?... Ruger mkIII 22 stainless Taurus M86 357... |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Paraquat on 06/01/15 at 11:07:57 I only own one of them. :( Need to get some more variety. --Steve |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Art Webb on 06/01/15 at 11:36:56 1B3C253A20032136203F362A530 wrote:
Good point Chicago is in Illinois, 5.5 per capita Texas 4.3 here's countries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate America is 99th on the list, but it's not compiled worst to best, we'd be 111th or 112th by number Kenesaw Kentucky isn't a state, but they have compulsory gun ownership, unless that's changed since 2002 or so The law was emplaced after a rash of home invasions, and after it was passed, the violent crime rate, in general, including, of course, home invasion, went down (i probably misspelled Kenesaw I had a Taurus Model 85 CH (.38) solidly reliable, but a 'lawyer trigger' for sure |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 06/01/15 at 12:42:01 The US is 13th on the list for fire-arm related death rate. What's a 'lawyer trigger' ? |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/01/15 at 13:00:01 43647D62785B796E78676E720B0 wrote:
A yet to be invented device that automatically fires a weapon any time it's aimed at a lawyer. I can see how it could be very popular. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by oldNslow on 06/01/15 at 13:14:41 Quote:
;D ;D ;D A " lawyer trigger" is firearms slang for a trigger that is hard enough to pull that it makes an unintentional discharge( and the resulting lawsuits)less likely. The double action trigger pull of a lot of double action revolvers, for example. Quite s few police agencys specify that the triggers on the handguns issued by them have heavier than normal pull weights. At one time the Glocks supplied to the NYPD were specially equipped with what was then known as the" New York Trigger". I don't know if that's still the case. Such a trigger unfortunately also make the gun more difficult to shoot accurately, which has the potential for causing another set of problems. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 06/01/15 at 13:56:53 Ah, I see, thanks. @ Justin ;D nice idea. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Paraquat on 06/02/15 at 06:11:13 http://www.wnd.com/2007/04/41196/ I've posted this before. 25 years murder-free in 'Gun Town USA' Crime rate plummeted after law required firearms for residents As the nation debates whether more guns or fewer can prevent tragedies like the Virginia Tech Massacre, a notable anniversary passed last month in a Georgia town that witnessed a dramatic plunge in crime and violence after mandating residents to own firearms. In March 1982, 25 years ago, the small town of Kennesaw – responding to a handgun ban in Morton Grove, Ill. – unanimously passed an ordinance requiring each head of household to own and maintain a gun. Since then, despite dire predictions of “Wild West” showdowns and increased violence and accidents, not a single resident has been involved in a fatal shooting – as a victim, attacker or defender. The crime rate initially plummeted for several years after the passage of the ordinance, with the 2005 per capita crime rate actually significantly lower than it was in 1981, the year before passage of the law. Prior to enactment of the law, Kennesaw had a population of just 5,242 but a crime rate significantly higher (4,332 per 100,000) than the national average (3,899 per 100,000). The latest statistics available – for the year 2005 – show the rate at 2,027 per 100,000. Meanwhile, the population has skyrocketed to 28,189. By comparison, the population of Morton Grove, the first city in Illinois to adopt a gun ban for anyone other than police officers, has actually dropped slightly and stands at 22,202, according to 2005 statistics. More significantly, perhaps, the city’s crime rate increased by 15.7 percent immediately after the gun ban, even though the overall crime rate in Cook County rose only 3 percent. Today, by comparison, the township’s crime rate stands at 2,268 per 100,000. This was not what some predicted. In a column titled “Gun Town USA,” Art Buchwald suggested Kennesaw would soon become a place where routine disagreements between neighbors would be settled in shootouts. The Washington Post mocked Kennesaw as “the brave little city … soon to be pistol-packing capital of the world.” Phil Donahue invited the mayor on his show. Reuters, the European news service, today revisited the Kennesaw controversy following the Virginia Tech Massacre. Police Lt. Craig Graydon said: “When the Kennesaw law was passed in 1982 there was a substantial drop in crime … and we have maintained a really low crime rate since then. We are sure it is one of the lowest (crime) towns in the metro area.” Kennesaw is just north of Atlanta. The Reuters story went on to report: “Since the Virginia Tech shootings, some conservative U.S. talk show hosts have rejected attempts to link the massacre to the availability of guns, arguing that had students been allowed to carry weapons on campus someone might have been able to shoot the killer.” Virginia Tech, like many of the nation’s schools and college campuses, is a so-called “gun-free zone,” which Second Amendment supporters say invites gun violence – especially from disturbed individuals seeking to kill as many victims as possible. Cho Seung-Hui murdered 32 and wounded another 15 before turning his gun on himself. --Steve |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/02/15 at 07:03:25 Doesn't matter how many instances you demonstrate proof that more guns doesn't translate to more crime,, |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by MnSpring on 06/02/15 at 07:50:12 Here's a little clip. https://www.youtube.com/embed/pELwCqz2JfE?feature=player_detailpage Unlike the Moore clip, that, HovisPresley posted. (Full of out and out lies) This clip, Actually, has those little thing called, 'FACTS' in it. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by MnSpring on 06/02/15 at 07:57:58 2D3234332E2918281820323E75470 wrote:
Many times that is true. Because a a gun hating person, who is bent on taking away Freedom, by 'INSISTING", you do it , 'his/her', way. Very Frequently, Totally IGNORES, the FACTS. And, Makes up LIES. Yep, another old adage: "Never mind the FACTS, my mind is made up". But, if just one ! |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 06/02/15 at 07:59:47 That clip compares gun ownership with homocides. Not once does he give figures concerning homocides involving guns. Fail ;D |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 06/02/15 at 08:08:37 The US comes near the top of the table in gun-related deaths. The youtube clip doesn't mention this. A little thing called "FACTS" ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate And that just lists deaths, it doesn't list shootings where the gunned-down victim pulled through |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by WebsterMark on 06/02/15 at 08:16:17 For the last year I could fine, there were 8855 gun related homicides in the US. There is an estimated 310 million firearms in the US. Using the same logic as you used when I was discussing the possible percentage of violent Muslims compared to the overall population, you really shouldn't care at all about gun related murders since they are "statistically insignificant." |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 06/02/15 at 08:21:30 So blowing someone's knee-cap off with a shotgun, for example, doesn't come into it? |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by MnSpring on 06/02/15 at 08:25:37 183F263923002235233C3529500 wrote:
Apparently, you are looking at something, completely different. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by WebsterMark on 06/02/15 at 08:35:26 1D3A233C260527302639302C550 wrote:
Sure it would. However, total gun crimes in the US is a harder figure to come up with. But lets say that number is 100 times higher than homicides, that percentage is still, to use your logic, statistically insignificant. Also, to be fair, to get a fair number of gun related crimes, I would also have to deduct the number of crimes NOT committed because the victim had a gun and defender themselves. Just this week in my state an old man shot two guys breaking into his house who themselves were armed. It's anyone's guess what would have happened to him if he had not been armed. Also to be fair, the number of crimes not committed BECAUSE of guns is a political hot potato. I just read the number in 2014 was estimated at 300,000 which sounds ridiculously high to me. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 06/02/15 at 08:42:43 11320F2C2E35323B5C0 wrote:
Apparently, you are looking at something, completely different. [/quote] Tell me where he mentions homocides involving firearms in that video. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/02/15 at 08:44:07 What is rarely reported are crimes not committed or stopped by gun owners. And debate it endlessly, but Americans are the Sovereign. The government doesn't grant us our rights. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by WebsterMark on 06/02/15 at 08:49:06 JOG; for once, you and I are in complete agreement. There is no debate over the meaning of the 2nd Amendment. There is no debate over the meaning of the Government. I should correct those statements to say "There SHOULD be no debate..." |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 06/02/15 at 12:22:33 From Wikipedia; "There are several versions of the text of the Second Amendment, each with capitalization or punctuation differences. Differences exist between the drafted and ratified copies, the signed copies on display, and various published transcriptions. The importance (or lack thereof) of these differences has been the source of debate regarding the meaning and interpretation of the amendment, particularly regarding the importance of the prefatory clause." (italics mine) |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by WebsterMark on 06/02/15 at 12:40:49 No. There is no ambiguity in its meaning as it was written at the time. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 06/02/15 at 13:33:02 That's what the word 'amendment' means....to amend something, to change it. Guns have come a long way since 1791 ;) |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/02/15 at 16:26:55 The part After the comma states clearly the intent. Why not Just that? IDK, but I don't think the Founding Fathers would want to see the citizenry at the mercy of the Hired Help. Remember, USA, citizens are the Sovereign. Disregard the obvious that the government has disregarded the law and get away with it. If there really was a difference between the two parties we would be seeing laws repealed when the power is voted back and forth. We SEE legislation Passed, the Representatives KNOW what the People want and vote against the Will of the people. Ohh, but, there is no unseen guiding hand with a longterm agenda. Noo, nobody ever wanted to dominate.. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Serowbot on 06/02/15 at 16:42:29 627D7B7C61665767576F7D713A080 wrote:
What's the first part doin'?... :-/... |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Art Webb on 06/02/15 at 17:20:54 64435A455F7C5E495F4049552C0 wrote:
Apparently, you are looking at something, completely different. [/quote] Tell me where he mentions homocides involving firearms in that video. [/quote] Irrelevant, the argument of the left is that restricting Firearms ownership reduces Violent crime, not just gun crime And it doesn't fail Related: we just discussed switzerland having Mandatory gun ownership It also has one of, if not the, lowest rate of violent crime in the world |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by MnSpring on 06/02/15 at 17:25:29 Let's say someone said: ' don't stab me now ' And they stabbed that person, the next day, and got off, because of, 'a comma'. JOG, you are right! Won't stop trying, but in this case I will. Got lawn mowen to do, Fishing to do, and drinking beer to do. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/02/15 at 17:52:38 2137203D25303D26520 wrote:
What's the first part doin'?... :-/... The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. - See more at: http://constitution.findlaw.com/amendment2.html#sthash.Gt9gUvgg.dpuf I don't think I can resolve the long standing dispute over the first part. I can,however,read that and,knowing that the whole thing is about freedom of the People. I feel Very comfortable that the Founding Fathers, having been forced into war to secure freedom from tyrannical government, wouldn't start by making the very People that the New Kind of government that they have literally put their heads in a noose when they signed the declaration of independence would intentionally disarm them and make them subservient to the Hired Help. Until people see the government as hirelings rather than authorities to be knelt to,we will have tyranny,and we are watching it grow. I expect violence to increase. Economic pressure will make for some angry,desperate people. Remember, there are people who thwart crime and don't report it. Poke a Gun Free Zone sign in the yard. Feel safer? I know you have guns, so, what is it you want? |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Serowbot on 06/02/15 at 17:58:09 4665587B7962656C0B0 wrote:
We all know the parts before the comma's don't count... so, just go drink the beer... ;D... |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by MnSpring on 06/02/15 at 18:21:36 [/quote]We all know the parts before the comma's don't count... so, just go drink the beer... ;D...[/quote] Oh, Forgot !!!!! Playing Poker, also. LOLOOO |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/02/15 at 18:27:36 7462756870656873070 wrote:
We all know the parts before the comma's don't count... so, just go drink the beer... ;D...[/quote] I took the time to make the point as well as possible, asked a question, and that is the reply? What do you think it says and why? |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Serowbot on 06/02/15 at 19:01:32 So, the question is,.. what do I want?... My post was a sarcastic jest... If I want something,.. it's an acknowledgement that the first part of the sentence is not in jest... The founders were making a specific codicil with first part of the sentence... a qualifier to the second part... I have guns... they're fun... I don't live in fear, and don't ever feel the need to be armed... The only "fear" I have,... is some nut with gun... (I don't carry, because I don't think two nuts with guns is any better than one)... If you are carrying in public,... many people are wondering behind your back... "What's wrong with that guy?"... ...and,.. "Dude,.. where's your penus"?...(gettin' around the site censor)... ...and,.. "What an a-hole"... And I'm not kidding,... and it's because people find it an intrusion into their personal space... Just because you have the legal right, don't make it right... Just like wearing yer' pants below yer' arse so yer' boxers show is a rude invasion of personal space... I don't mean any of this as an attack... just the truth... People do feel that way,.. and people do say those things... ..and nobody, but nobody, thinks you're a cool guy, or a tough guy... ..'cept maybe some other guy showing off his tool... Just like loud pipes... Only bikers that like loud pipes are impressed... Everyone else thinks it's making up for an inadequacy ... |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/02/15 at 19:31:28 Well, I don't really want to be around a buncha guys or girls strapped. First, IF there's an incident, the people carrying are first targets, or, the fact that they are there keeps anything from happening. I don't live in fear, but neither do the victims of random shootings. Wouldn't it have been good if a coupla theater goers had been armed. Ohh, but no, THAT theater had a rule against... |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Art Webb on 06/02/15 at 21:09:34 I don't live in fear, either, not even fear of being considered an a hole I know guys who wear their pants down like that I don't really like it, but the ones I know seem decent enough The folks I know who carry seem decent enough too |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 06/03/15 at 04:50:22 The request... Quote; "Tell me where he mentions homocides involving firearms in that video." (Hovis) The response... Quote; "Irrelevant" (Art) :o :o :o |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Art Webb on 06/03/15 at 07:44:16 0B2C352A30133126302F263A430 wrote:
After this post, we are talking violent crime, not just gun violence, which is a more honest way to look at the issue |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Serowbot on 06/03/15 at 07:58:03 That is more difficult than you might think,... because many countries, England in particular, have a more liberal definition of "assault"... or "violent Crime"... This drastically skews any comparison.. For instance... Quote:
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Art Webb on 06/03/15 at 08:36:14 which is one reason why comparing countries to other countries as a shining example of gun control working is comparing apples to corn flakes And I dunno about the FBI, but my state calls assault assault, you can use physical force, within reason, for any and all of the offenses you say England reports but the FBI doesn't, so I'd guess they are reported as crimes, too But I didn't start that line of duiscussion |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 06/03/15 at 12:55:38 Quote (art); "which is one reason why comparing countries to other countries as a shining example of gun control working is comparing apples to corn flakes" Why that video didn't share the statistics, or even a wiki link, to the 'homocides involving firearms' question is probably not a surprise. Seems relevant......death.....by fire-arms......USA..... yep, relevant. Apples need to be compared to another apple. Maybe a developed country such as the USA.... needs to compared to something very similar, such as Canada, or Switzerland, for example. Might not be a case of 'gun-ownership' as more a case of 'gun-mentality' that is more significant, maybe. Who know's? |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/03/15 at 13:30:32 466178677D5E7C6B7D626B770E0 wrote:
Might not be a case of 'gun-ownership' as more a case of 'gun-mentality' that is more significant, maybe. Who know's? [/quote] Our culture is young and sprung up well after knights and swords. What is called entertainment in America has been violent. I don't know what it's like other places,but our society makes a big deal over people who kill a buncha people or dominate on the football field. We glorify war and Our law allows for the imagery of death and killing on all kindsa stuff. Games,TV,movies, the worse it is,the more it gets on the news. The value of life is ,IMO,diminished in the eyes of the people. Expressing that lack of respect and caring about life is easy With a gun. Of course, I have no experience or understanding of other societies that have guns yet less violence. Don't forget about the socio-economic pressures, the government created drug wars, lotsa variables. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/03/15 at 14:58:44 Yeah,I thought that would be a challenge. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/03/15 at 18:03:11 Appears that blew up the internet.. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 06/04/15 at 05:56:09 534C4A4D50576656665E4C400B390 wrote:
;D |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Art Webb on 06/04/15 at 07:54:20 193E273822012334223D3428510 wrote:
Nope Gun control advocate Disarming will reduce crime Gun ownership advocate No, folks just kill with other tools, take the 'firearms' out of it, it's a false flag, and look at total violent crime gun control advocate got numbers gun ownership advocate *provide numbers* gun control advocate but that ignores gun violence gun ownership advocate That was the point |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 06/04/15 at 08:06:53 So the US being the 13th in the world for gun-related deaths doesn't tell you something? Hovis *gun owner* Presley (*provider of numbers*) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/04/15 at 09:27:25 I don't CARE. I Simply do not CARE. The Reason for that second amendment is clear, its not about hunting, The point is not debatable. Shall we just step up and argue about how often I can post? |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Paraquat on 06/04/15 at 11:09:03 No, because that's the First. We're arguing the Second. --Steve |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Serowbot on 06/04/15 at 11:24:42 The founders were guaranteeing the right to have a single shot muzzle-loader, and a sword... They might have wanted some refinements in that amendment if they had known what was coming... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Art Webb on 06/04/15 at 12:26:27 55726B746E4D6F786E7178641D0 wrote:
It tells me that you couldn't back "guns cause crime, and getting rid of them will reduce crime" so you went back to "only shootings matter" lowering three likelihood of being shot doesn't matter if the likelihood of being stabbed, beaten or brained with a rock goes up and in America, restricting gun ownership doesn't lower gun crime, either |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by WebsterMark on 06/04/15 at 12:32:02 2137203D25303D26520 wrote:
No, I don't think so. In fact, had they known or imagined the advancement of firearms, they might have insisted citizens have equal access. Remember their intent: citizens need a method to protect themselves from a tyrannical government. With this sort of reasoning, why would they have ensured citizens would always be 5 or 6 steps behind government weapons? They probably did not imagine future US citizens would so willingly cede control over so much of their freedom. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by WebsterMark on 06/04/15 at 12:35:40 50434546545353310 wrote:
It tells me that you couldn't back "guns cause crime, and getting rid of them will reduce crime" so you went back to "only shootings matter" lowering three likelihood of being shot doesn't matter if the likelihood of being stabbed, beaten or brained with a rock goes up and in America, restricting gun ownership doesn't lower gun crime, either[/quote] Where would the US rank if we backed out gun crimes related to inner city gang violence which is somewhat unique in America compared to other nations who do not have the race component we have here in the US. Take Chicago, Detroit, New Orleans, my town of St. Louis, Baltimore...remove them from the figures and see where we sit then. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Art Webb on 06/04/15 at 12:36:03 2D3B2C31293C312A5E0 wrote:
Nope The reason for the Second amendment, at it's base, is the prevention of tyranny The founders had just fought a long bloody war to throw off a government they saw as tyrannical, and didn't want the citizens of the new republic to be subject to tyranny from the newly created government down the line, because they recognized that power corrupts, and any government will always seek to increase it's own power The purpose of the 2nd is to give the Citizen the ability to combat that possibility, up to and including the throwing down of our own government We'd look pretty silly going against an average infantryman with a musket and a sword We'd look pretty silly doing it with a Pistol. too, but not near as silly as with a musket and a sword The 2nd, as all the original 10 amendments, is about Libety And the founders weren't guaranteeing squat, they were recognizing a right they considered god given, or, to non believers, basic human rights |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 06/04/15 at 14:11:52 053730212637201F332039520 wrote:
It tells me that you couldn't back "guns cause crime, and getting rid of them will reduce crime" so you went back to "only shootings matter" lowering three likelihood of being shot doesn't matter if the likelihood of being stabbed, beaten or brained with a rock goes up and in America, restricting gun ownership doesn't lower gun crime, either[/quote] (WM) (bold italics mine) .................................................... Where did I say that? |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Art Webb on 06/04/15 at 20:31:44 You're right, you didn't Color me embarrassed I believe I must apologize |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 06/05/15 at 03:58:40 No problem, Art, my friend. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by verslagen1 on 06/05/15 at 13:14:38 4553445941545942360 wrote:
'tis arguable. "God created all men, but Sam Colt made them equal" Our founding fathers intended that everyone may own a firearm. If you say now, only the government can have multi fire weapons, I think you've just made the government superior to the citizen, never mind the outlaw. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/05/15 at 14:23:45 [smiley=thumbsup.gif] [smiley=thumbsup.gif] [smiley=thumbsup.gif] [smiley=thumbsup.gif] [smiley=thumbsup.gif] [smiley=thumbsup.gif] [smiley=thumbsup.gif] I didn't know that ever y touch added another, but, it was worth more than one,for sure. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 06/09/15 at 03:35:18 This is funny... http://washingtonpost.com.co/gun-owners-forced-to-submit-to-dna-and-iq-testing/ |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Serowbot on 06/09/15 at 04:55:26 203324253A3731333867560 wrote:
They are, and always have been... They have grenades, rocket launchers, tanks, F-18's, missiles, drones, battleships, cannons, and nukes... You can't prevent "tyranny" with a pea-shooter... You can die... Waco?... Ruby Ridge?... You don't win... What you can do,... is hurt a lot of innocent people with a pea-shooter... ...but, defending against government is a joke... All you'll do is die... The Amendment was written at a time when America had no plans to ever have a standing Army... It's citizenry were on call to defend at a moments notice. I'm not saying we should all give up our guns... ...but, we do have limitations now,.. the question is, do these limits need to be reassessed?... |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by WebsterMark on 06/09/15 at 05:57:01 You are completely wrong on that account. Citizens can and do defend themselves against a warring government or when there is no government against an invading army. I would point to the French resistance in WWII for example, or look how the drug cartels in Mexico survive and thrive despite basically a war waged upon them. You could even point to the South in the Civil War given the huge disparity in weapon superiority the North had. The difference is the government is not going to carpet bomb cities and bulldozing the remains over. Tucson is not going to be nuked into the desert. A government takeover would be more like an escalated policing action. Soldiers would show up house to house, ID cards issued, the ability to purchase goods would be controlled etc… That’s how a government takeover would happen. (you know, pretty much like the liberals want to do now…) So a citizenry armed with available guns could in fact defend themselves and retain some semblance of our nation. And your comments about the original meaning of the 2nd Amendment and militia are dead wrong as well. Read what Madison and many of the founders wrote at the time. They knew exactly what they were doing. Remember, they had just defeated the top military power of the world at that time. The price England would have had to pay to win that war would have been too much and certainly would have lead to yet another confrontation with France. We should play a ‘what if’ game. Imagine what would happen if Obama said, ‘you know what, I’m staying in office’. Imagine if the Joint Chiefs all agreed and a coup against the US Constitution occurred with the top military leaders joining in. What would happen? How many of the current military would ‘follow orders’? Granted, it’s probably impossible right now that that would happen but 10 years from now when the government is even further in every aspect of our lives? Are you telling me that’s an impossibility? |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Paraquat on 06/09/15 at 06:05:02 7066716C74616C77030 wrote:
Ok. Let's not out law the 2nd Amendment but let's set some guide lines. I can get on board with citizens not owning nukes or Hellfire missiles, or even, call me a prude, F18's. The government will remain an overwhelming powerful force because it has superiority. Now, let's apply this to the first amendment. Joe the chicken farmer has 5 dollars to flush down the political campaign toilet to influence his local legislature to vote in the direction he wants. That's his right. That's his free speech as an individual. He can flush away as much as he wants... as much as he can afford. Large Chicken Conglomerate wants to shut him down and throws $500,000 in the opposite direction. It's their right, because a corporation is an individual and there's no limit on free speech related to campaign dollars. "The will of the people" doesn't stand a chance. I could tie this back to the TPP but I think I'd lose people if I start getting too tin foil-y. --Steve |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by pgambr on 06/09/15 at 06:16:15 Quote:
Wow, I'm in full agreement with Serow on this one. :-? What is not in the front page is when they do implement martial law. You may have caught a glimpse, but they went house to house during Katrina. They also went house to house in Boston when they were looking for the bombers. Pea-shooter is correct, and they'll take that if they want too. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Serowbot on 06/09/15 at 07:02:11 Case and point... JOG posted this in the Cafe' just yesterday... Here is what resisting a government official will get you... ... and this was for petty theft... ;D... You can resist,.. but you will never win... ;)... Law or government officials will never, ever just walk away because you resist by force... it only escalates... http://denver.cbslocal.com/2015/06/04/homes-in-greenwood-village-evacuated-lengthy-standoff/ Standoff Suspect ID’d, Was Wanted For Stealing 2 Belts & A Shirt From Walmart http://https://cbsdenver.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/shoplifter-standoff-vo-tran.jpg?w=518&h=291 |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by WebsterMark on 06/09/15 at 07:03:30 They can go house to house looking for a criminal terrorist in Boston sure.... but do you think they could go house to house looking to confiscate gold, guns, horded cash etc.. in Montana? Wyoming? Alaska? along with thousands of other communities? Good luck. Hell, I've been to parts of Tennessee where if Timothy McVeigh were still alive, he would get 40% of the vote!.... It's not going to be as easy as you think. Liberal major cities like Boston, yea, I can see them folding like a cheap suit since nearly everything they need is supplied by the government. I was working in New York City not long ago and I was amazed at how nearly everything is under the complete control of the government. The city could close the bridges and trap 5 million people in the blink of an eye. They could close highways around Boston and starve the population into submission. But where my brother lives in Montana? Forget it. I just drove 3 1/2 hours from Dallas to south of Lufkin TX. The Feds would have a very difficult time taking over that area. Add 10 more years to the mix and many citizens will just sit there while the water in the pot slowly boils them alive like a lobster and they don't even realize it. but I think there's enough of the American spirit left that would put up a fight. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Serowbot on 06/09/15 at 07:15:02 The funny thing about guns in America is... In most "scenarios"... "You can Take My guns From my Cold Dead Hands"... It's the big bad government coming to get your guns... You have guns, to protect your guns, from people coming to get your guns... That's like having a car alarm for your car alarm,.. in case someone tries to steal your car alarm... ;D ;D ;D... PS.. our US military is a larger population than the entire state of Montana,... including every man, woman, and child... Add in Law enforcement to that number... |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by WebsterMark on 06/09/15 at 07:16:52 let's imagine this Sew; let's say a hard line conservative wins the election along with a conservative majority in Congress and let's say this goes on for a couple terms. After 6 or 7 years of packing the supreme court, judges, military leaders etc with like minded individuals he issues an executive order and uses election rolls to locate democrats/liberals. He then uses some event (lets say a liberal shoots a conservative politician) and claiming this actions is needed to protect the public, sends in local authorities in to confiscate your guns. What are you gonna do? |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by pgambr on 06/09/15 at 07:16:58 I am surprised we have not heard anything about the Bundy Ranch incident. I figured by now a whole bunch of people would be somewhere in the justice system. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/09/15 at 07:19:48 That overwhelming power has been held at bay in other places. The Whole of them wont turn on us. They know that they NEED a problem that will make the people Ask them to take control. Who here believes the media TRIED to calm things at the times when racial tensions were high? WHY did the police suppress the evidence that proved the cops face was broken? Gee, it almost seems like someone WANTS a race war. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by WebsterMark on 06/09/15 at 07:29:29 That overwhelming power has been held at bay in other places. Yes, it has, you are correct. The Whole of them wont turn on us. Yes, you’re right. Remember, there were dozens of assassination attempts made on Hitler and many Germans fled or at the very least, were silently in opposition. They know that they NEED a problem that will make the people Ask them to take control. Who here believes the media TRIED to calm things at the times when racial tensions were high? The media is dominated by liberals who believe blacks are under attack because of the racism of conservatives. That’s all. It’s not a conspiracy in the sense you are making it out to be. It’s ideological. WHY did the police suppress the evidence that proved the cops face was broken? No one suppressed evidence. It was out almost immediately. The problem was, his face wasn’t broken. It was red with a few scratches, that’s all. Gee, it almost seems like someone WANTS a race war. Again, it’s ideological, but certainly there’s money and power to be had in a race war. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Serowbot on 06/09/15 at 07:30:56 774542535445526D41524B200 wrote:
I sure ain't gonna' barricade myself into my 3 bedroom ranch style fortress and try to hold them off... ;D... They have a warrant,.. they can take my guns... I'll go to court, and seek justice... I ain't gonna' die, or rot in prison, over my fun peashooters... Make note... this isn't cowardice... I'm just not delusional... I won't pick a fight I can't possibly win... ...and I surely won't die or rot in prison, for any material possession... Comes down to it... I don't think anyone here would either... I give you all more credit for common sense than that... Peace, Serow ;)... |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Serowbot on 06/09/15 at 07:49:31 PS... upon refection,.. if I had any warning... I'd sell them all to my friend for a dollar... ;)... Option two... Change my voter affiliation to Republican.... (you can still vote for whoever you want)... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by WebsterMark on 06/09/15 at 07:51:22 Others should weigh in. Remember, in this pretend scenario, (pretend for now anyway) imagine the government has become more and more intrusive. Imagine the situation similar to what the colonies faced in the 1770's. Or imagine it's what black Americans faced in the 1960's or southerners after the Civil War. imagine laws passed that were specifically aimed directly at you. Imagine you are basically being singled out as the reason for other people's problems and the government is targeting you and others like you. this has occurred over years, not all at once. you're savings is confiscated, you're home has unreasonable taxes put on it, you have to report your travel etc.... Now they are sending soldiers to come into your house and take what they deem you cannot own. The United States as you know it has ceased to exist. What do you do? |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Serowbot on 06/09/15 at 07:55:05 I think the premise is ridiculous... just couldn't happen. ...but,... if you're going to play,... take the premise seriously... No armchair bravado or bumper sticker legends... Realistically,... there are only three options... Die,.. Submit,.. Move,... ... but,... the wisest option is move... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by WebsterMark on 06/09/15 at 08:36:33 The premise is not ridiculous. Do you think the Germans of 1920 would have guessed what their country would look like in 20 short years? What changes did these countries see with in a decade: Poland? Japan? Vietnam? Korea? You think the people of the USSR in 1980 could have guessed what their nation would look like 20 years later? Anything could happen. Honest answer on my part: move. Keep moving to friendly areas until I was out of places to go. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by old.indian on 06/09/15 at 08:57:46 Under the "pretend scenario" you are scripting I would like to add some reality. Those aren't soldiers going to your house, those are paramilitary police (local, state or federal ). The Gestapo started as a political police force (and absorbed the regular German police forces). The SS started as a paramilitary force to guard the concentration camps. The same can be said for the KGB. I lived in the Boston area during the "Bulger era" and the here in New Mexico for the last 10 years. If you ask my opinion of the Judicial branches of local, state or federal government.... "No Comment." |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by pgambr on 06/09/15 at 09:02:36 There are no more places to go. Not unless your extremely wealthy and you have already purchased an enormous track of land in South America. Incidentally, the 1% has been doing that for a number of years now. I not certain what level of civil disobedience we are speaking of; although, it wouldn't take much. We have a labor participation rate of a bit more than 62%. 38% of the country is being fed by Uncle Sam. Imagine if EBTs didn't go out for let's say 10 days of more. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Serowbot on 06/09/15 at 09:03:06 7F4D4A5B5C4D5A65495A43280 wrote:
So, we agree... (I was expecting to be called a liberal wus')... ;D... Yer' smarter than I gave you credit for... ;D... Jes' kidding, Web... ;)... |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by WebsterMark on 06/09/15 at 09:12:34 well, I am way smarter than you give me credit for but that's for another day..... Under the "pretend scenario" you are scripting I would like to like to add some reality. They aren't soldiers going to your house, those are paramilitary police (local, state or federal ). True. Seems every government agency nowadays has their own enforcement branch. Why does the EPA need armed agents? I lived in the Boston area during the "Bulger era" and the here in New Mexico for the last 10 years. If you ask my opinion of the Judicial branches of local, state or federal government.... "No Comment." go ahead, comment! |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Serowbot on 06/09/15 at 09:27:17 I think it's logistically impossible to disarm America at this point,... Banning sale of ammo would limit use to reloads and existing brass... Banning gunpowder,.. and people would make their own... What about banning manufacture of primers?... Anybody know if they can be made DIY?... Just curious... :-?... It's not like I'm gonna' start a movement to do it or anything... ;D... PS.. this thread is totally highjacked... but it's my thread... So I guess that's okay... :-/... |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by WebsterMark on 06/09/15 at 09:48:21 I think it's logistically impossible to disarm America at this point,... that's the ultimate example of the toothpaste is out of the tube. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by old.indian on 06/09/15 at 10:13:22 152720313627300F233029420 wrote:
No Way !!!!! As a former IT network engineer, I'm waayy to aware of the ability of some to invade communications. It's not as if you are doing anything wrong. That decision is made by some faceless, nameless bureaucrat. (Perhaps now. Perhaps 10+ years in the future.) :-X |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Art Webb on 06/09/15 at 10:30:07 No one suppressed evidence. It was out almost immediately. The problem was, his face wasn’t broken. It was red with a few scratches, that’s all. This statement is not exactly correct. the orbit of the officer's eye was broken, that came out in the court case, if you recall, when the officer was exonerated That's not quite a broken face, but it's far worse than red with a few scratches As for not winning a fight with a force of professional soldiers with superior weapons, it's been done many times, and not all our military will accept orders to subdue US citizens, especially without good cause It is true however that we are not supposed to have a standing army, the founders considered it a direct threat to liberty |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by WebsterMark on 06/09/15 at 10:54:22 No, the orbit bone was not broken. There was no court case, there was only grand jury testimony which was completely released. he was prescribed a pain medication for bruising to his face, that's all. no broken bone. note: that doesn't change anything in my opinion, he acted properly and in self-defense. JOG and I have had this discussion before. He contends the officer's injury was suppressed by the little group that controls the entire world apparently, in an attempt to further gin up a race war which helps to keep them in power. the fact the officer had been hit and injured was well known early on. It wasn't until the grand jury testimony was released that the actual extend of his injury (along with a million other facts) was confirmed. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/09/15 at 11:23:59 Mmkay, Mark, report I read overstated the injury. I remember being surprised that anyone could stay conscious if hit that hard.And that claim came quite some time to find. My point remains. Cop was injured. I can't hurt you if I don't hit you. So, I wasn't there, you weren't there, but the Gentle Giant didn't get shot in the back. The media Did Not try to show that the cop was right, if so, please post a link to anyone who was trying to calm down the moment. It Looked and still looks like someone would be thrilled to see a problem. WAIT, we know that is true. Someone agreed to Pay protesters. Now, what about bribing editors? Does anyone else remember reading the headlines when you were ten? Mark, THEY don't control everything. THEY want to, and they use problems to their advantage. Everyone should understand certain words and phrases. Problem/Reaction/Solution Look that up.. Look at the world.... Remember Eisenhower's warning,? What would our lives look like if we had failed to heed that warning? |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by WebsterMark on 06/09/15 at 12:35:47 Jog; have you been following the McKinney TX situation? Or the dozens of other race related situations the past few months? Rodney King ring a bell? The truth in all those stories was nowhere near what was first reported. The MSM's bias lead them to immediately jump to conclusions and unfortunately, many of those false stories get stuck in people's head as the truth. Best example I can think of is Columbine. Nothing reported in the first few days was true, but ask and half the people still think those kids were bullied by jocks and this was their payback. I don’t know how else to tell you this but there is no conspiracy in the sense you mean. The dominant MSM media sources have the same political ideology. So subconsciously or not, they slant the news in the manner they see it. Perfect example; have you heard about one of the 19 kids on that reality TV and the fact he molested his sister? Been all over the news and if they’ve not cancelled the show, they will soon. However, Lena Dunham of HBO Girl’s fame wrote a book saying she did the same to her sister and lied about being raped by a Republican in college which never happened by the way. That got zero coverage on MSM because she’s one of them, anti-conservative and a big Dem. She gets protected….. It’s not a conspiracy directed by some far away group. It’s the filter of political ideology at work. In the interest of full disclosure, Fox News has it’s filter at work and you would have heard about Lena Dunham, you would have heard about Darren Wilson getting hit, etc…. but not on CNN. On CNN, Bristol Palin gets knocked down to the ground and dragged around and it's a big joke. If same thing had happened to Chelsea Clinton, you'd have heard about that. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/09/15 at 13:47:44 I'm not gonna stomp on anything you said. I can track with it. That Every moment isn't used doesn't mean some aren't. How can protesters whining about not getting paid be a non issue? Though,I will readily admit that NOT paying and risking exposure that id offered carries some strong,potentially devastating,side effects. Still, hard to call Jackson and Sharpton uniters. How do they make a living? So, what's your take on the Bildergerg meeting? If they are not making policy, why would high level people be there? You did read the Rockefeller quotes,right? |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by pgambr on 06/09/15 at 14:00:58 This is just a suggestion. Why don't we start a new thread for who really running the show? Besides, we would have to hi-jack this thread for a second time. :-? Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/09/15 at 16:36:15 Stumbled across one of the things Mark mentioned. Let's see what happens. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by Art Webb on 06/09/15 at 19:40:10 1A282F3E39283F002C3F264D0 wrote:
OK, I recall a report that the orbit of the eye was fractured, must have been wrong, plenty of that in the case still, there's a fair sized bruise, that didn't come from a love tap DOJ investigation did clear him though, justified shooting |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by WebsterMark on 06/09/15 at 20:07:30 Mike Brown was a big man, a thug who had just robbed a store. Yea, more than a love tap. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by HovisPresley on 06/10/15 at 08:38:24 In terms of government militia controlling the population.... remember that 6 counties of the 'UK' were under military occupation for 30 years.... and that's within our life-time. |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by old.indian on 06/10/15 at 12:28:41 786E79647C69647F0B0 wrote:
During my time ('61-'67) 90% of the Army and Marine Corps were "support" for the 10% actual combat troops. From my conversations with various returning personnel (including young relatives) that 90% is a low number in today's ground combat forces. Re: Local, state and federal police... I would have serious concerns of their ability to withstand an incursion by a small , determined armed group. (Think the Mexican police and the drug cartels....) (There is one HELLOFA difference between a full on firefight and blasting away at paper targets (or any thing else that isn't shooting at you.) |
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Title: Re: Arizona cartoons... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/10/15 at 17:40:22 How do people not just fall into a blind panic when bullets start coming by? I'm pretty sure it's not like the movies. Hardened troops, been in a few fight s, learned how to control fear, so that they can think, plan, not just shoot. I don't wanna ever know anything about a firefight. |
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