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Message started by yetimeister on 05/20/15 at 06:49:12

Title: wont start. Electrical?
Post by yetimeister on 05/20/15 at 06:49:12

So I had my engine sent out to have it receive new gaskets and a new cam shaft put in along with the valves adjusted. I farmed this job out because im currently in the process of building a voodoo vintage hardtail 650. I got my engine back bolted it up, and plugged in my wiring harness. I turned the key and it cranked over then stopped. Well i found a black ground wire connection i forgot to plug in. So i plugged it in and replaced the 20a fuse i blew in the process. It cranks over fine and everything seems to work but it wont run. I seem to be getting fuel and spark and when i fully choke it it wants to start more so but quickly goes back to just cranking over. To me it sounds like a fuel problem not electrical. I took the carb apart twice now and cleaned it and blew it out and the jets with compressed air. Still doesnt want to run. Maybe i fried something when i cranked it over the first time without the black wire connection connected ? Im at a loss. any suggestions would be appreciated. I have a open exhaust open intake and raptor petcock just fyi.

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by Dave on 05/20/15 at 07:03:32

You need to make sure the decompression solenoid is properly adjusted and not holding the exhaust valves open a bit. The lever on the side of the engine should be horizontal and resting on the bottom of the bracket. When you hit start the lever should be pulled up for just a revolution or two - then drop down into the resting mode before the engine will have any compression and start/run.

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by yetimeister on 05/20/15 at 07:19:38

Good to know although ive messed with the adjustment on it and it doesnt seem to make a difference.

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/20/15 at 09:03:57

I'm just curious which cam you installed and what a gasket set costs and what shop installed them and what they charged.
I'm not the wiring guru, stay with these guys,report minor details, you'd be amazed at the things that I fixed because of a detail. Minor stuff. Don't be afraid to try to bore us with details.

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by verslagen1 on 05/20/15 at 09:10:10

Quote:

I seem to be getting fuel and spark and when i fully choke it it wants to start more so but quickly goes back to just cranking over.

I'd look at the plug, if it looks black or wet... new plug.
Dry? then I'd try starter fluid.

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by yetimeister on 05/20/15 at 13:32:24

Gasket set was under 100 i believe by athena. He charged me 220 to put the new gaskets on cam shaft and adjust the valves. I went with a web performance custom made camshaft i ordered directly through them. 180 bucks. Spark plugs wet and black. Pulled out of cylinder and cranked over has good spark. Ill get a new plug tomorrow for what its worth. Thanks. anybody else have any ideas?

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/20/15 at 19:26:02

Try to start, no choke, don't twist the gas.
No go, pull choke one bump.
No go,full choke

Tell us about it.

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by yetimeister on 05/21/15 at 15:18:29

Still won't start. Tried no choke bump out and full choke. At full choke it will kick over as if it wants to go but quickly goes back to just cranking. Put new plug in. Kind of stuck on what it is. Thing ran great before the bob project..

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by yetimeister on 05/21/15 at 15:37:34

Could it possibly be my jetting with the new performance web cam? I would think it would still run though. The guy before me jetted it for the cone filter and exhaust mods and it ran great. I can't imagine a hopped up cam would change it enough to not run though..

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by Trippah on 05/21/15 at 16:06:56

Timing?

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by oldNslow on 05/21/15 at 16:16:16

Quote:

I can't imagine a hopped up cam would change it enough to not run though..

It could if it's not installed correctly - ie. timed right. Or if the guy who did the work adjusted the valves too tight so you've got one or more that aren't closing.

If you are positive you have spark, and a shot of starter fluid in the carb inlet won't get the engine to at least fire for a couple of seconds, then I think something messed up in the valve train is the next place to look.

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by yetimeister on 05/21/15 at 16:18:11

timings eletrical as I'm sure you all know. Way to test it? Maybe he misaligned my cam with the chain? I doubt it but maybe?

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by yetimeister on 05/21/15 at 16:20:56

Hmm I'll have to check the valves and clearances. Don't really want to pull the cover but it's looking like I may have to. I should have just did the engine work myself at this point haha.

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by oldNslow on 05/21/15 at 17:05:01

Quote:

timings eletrical as I'm sure you all know. Way to test it?

I think Trippah is talking about the valve timing - the cam. The ignition timing is not adjustable and if the plug is firing it's OK.

However, I just reread your first post and noticed this:

Quote:

Well i found a black ground wire connection i forgot to plug in. So i plugged it in..

Where was this wire and where did you plug it in ? I think the ground wires are black with a white trace. There is a solid black wire that runs from the igniter box to the starter relay that does affect the ignition timing when the engine is cranking.

Is your wiring harness original and intact, or has it been modified?

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by yetimeister on 05/21/15 at 17:22:18

Yes the plug is firing fine. I have spark. It's runing from the battery ground to the connection into the wiring harness. Not sure where the other end goes as I'm not looking at the diagram right now. Looks like it runs up though towards the forks in the harness. When I forgot to plug it in it blew one of my 20a fuses and my bike wouldn't crank over until I replaced it. Everything works now but won't start. Just tried starter fluid and same results. Guess it's time to check clearances and if not that pull the cover and check cam alignment. I posted my previous comment before I saw his comment lol.

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by yetimeister on 05/21/15 at 17:23:54

The wire is a single wore with a connector with a white strip. My harness is stock and whole.

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by yetimeister on 05/21/15 at 19:50:47

So I checked the valve clearances and they are all in spec. I have the valve/rocker cover off now and inspected the cam. It seems to be off timing. I have it at tdc and the two slash marks are not lined up with the top surface of the head. So I loosened the bolts toke the c clip off and am trying to get the sprocket and chain lined up with the cam. Everytime I get them lined up and almost all the way onto the cam it seems as though my chain wont give me quit enough slack to get it centered on the cam. Am I missing something here? I don't need to take the side cover off and mess with the tensioner do !? Thanks guys.

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by verslagen1 on 05/21/15 at 20:04:37

495544595D555943445542300 wrote:

Am I missing something here? I don't need to take the side cover off and mess with the tensioner do !? Thanks guys.

yes, you do.

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by yetimeister on 05/22/15 at 05:19:53

So last night shortly after I wrote that I got the cam sprocket and chain all lined up without having to get into the side cover. Bolted everything back up and went to bed. Woke up this morning went out and it fired right up! My timing was off. This is the good news. The bad news is now I seem to have a whining type noise coming from the bottom end area? Any ideas? Can't seem to catch a break here.

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by Dave on 05/22/15 at 05:54:37

If the fellow that installed your cam can't get the timing right....no clue as to what else may be wrong.

If you didn't take off the clutch cover and release the cam tensioner...it could be your cam chain is too tight. When you had the cam sprocket loose the tensioner might have moved when the chain was slack....and when the tensioner takes a new "bite" on the ratchet it never lets go.

I believe you need to take the cover off and release the ratchet so it can remove some pressure on the cam chain. Then while you are in there look around and make sure it all looks correct.

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/22/15 at 05:57:05

That's where id start.
No telling how hard it's pushing on the guides.
I don't know how you managed it. You must have some strong hands.

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by Dave on 05/22/15 at 05:57:52

Then when you have time go over and "dope slap" the guy that worked on your engine! >:(

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by yetimeister on 05/22/15 at 06:07:52

Thanks guys that's what my next step was but wanted to make get a second opinion. I'll pull the cover off when I get home and release it and see if that helps. Yeah let's just say once I get it all resolved I'll be giving him a call to inform him. I knew I should have just done it myself. As for strong hands I can't take full credit after a while I got it to line up just right and it didn't take much effort but was a hassle.

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/22/15 at 06:24:11

Left side inspection cover out, rotate CCW on bolt till marks line up on TDC,compression.
Unless you check and make sure that didn't change while wrangling with the chain,tensioner,etc, just bolting it up and calling it good can be a bad idea.
Considering the quality of the job, id sure wanna know that cover isn't in overly tight. They have been known to cause headaches if cranked down too tight.

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by yetimeister on 05/22/15 at 06:56:12

Thanks man. You mean the valve cover? I torque everything to soec so it shouldn't be an issue of torque tightness.

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by yetimeister on 05/22/15 at 16:42:10

So I just pulled the clutch case cover. Nice little surprise I found. The tensioner is over extended and the only thing holding it together is the spring. Best way to tackle this without it grenading? Appears to not be chewed up. Explains my whinning noise.. Should I try and reuse it? Buy a new one? Buy a modified one? Can't really measure the length as its pooched at the moment. Bike only has 5500 miles and is a 98. Trying to figure out my next step haha. What a hassle this has turned into.

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by yetimeister on 05/22/15 at 16:43:23

Assuming this was due to the shop not getting my timing right? Never has this issue before.

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by oldNslow on 05/22/15 at 17:02:09

574B5A47434B475D5A4B5C2E0 wrote:

I don't know what you mean by "pooched" but if the adjuster doesn't appear to be damaged, I think the first thing I'd try is pulling it out, putting the spring and plunger back in the body, and re- installing it. Then see how far the plunger is extended. It might just have come apart while you were messing with the chain. At 5500 miles I don't think the chain should be stretched to the point where the adjuster would come apart.

A photo would be helpful.

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/22/15 at 17:17:20

I wasn't paying attention. The spring doesn't hold it together.
Stiff piece of paper, corner on tensioner body, mark where protruding tube starts to taper to the attachment point.
Then measure that.
Low miles, should be good.
A picture would be nice.

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by yetimeister on 05/22/15 at 17:46:11

Got it apart and put back together. Small scare on the side but not where the action takes place. Internals all look good still. Measures 8.4 mm.
Pooched- = broken or in sometimes he's pooched!- tired /drunk lol.

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by yetimeister on 05/22/15 at 18:48:32

Got it all back together and fired her up. She started right up and the noise is gone. I have some valve noise but I had that before. I'll have to double check them again to make sure they are in spec. I have a question though. Any idea why when I roll my throttle and release it quick she almost stalls out after she drops the rpms? She was doing this before all this took place as well. Carb tuning issue? You guys have been a lot of help appreciate it. Trying to move this build along. I'll have to throw up some pictures of it soon.

Title: Re: wont start. Electrical?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/22/15 at 19:08:27

Your idle might be low.
Idle air needle valve..
You'll win it.