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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> 2014 with idling problems /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1429142736 Message started by reynaldo on 04/15/15 at 17:05:30 |
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Title: 2014 with idling problems Post by reynaldo on 04/15/15 at 17:05:30 Hi. New here. Loads of great information here ppl. Thanks a lot! So, I bought mine used half a year ago (2014 orange/black model), I'm a new biker so I had little to compare it with. Whatever the case, the bike fits me pretty well and I really like it! A few months ago and as I had to do a few minor repairs (broken turn signal, some missing nuts at the rear fender side application from a bad passenger seat fit up) the bike was left stored for 2 months and after fixing the above I decided to do an oil+new filter maintenance. Following the manual's instructions I drained it and poured *2 litters* of new 10w40 / jaso ma oil. Bike started normally but I noticed that if, say, after 1 minute of idling (choke closed by then) I opened the throttle so it will go BrrOOm, it will stall after I release the throttle. Bike didn't do this before. After a little inspection I found out the oil level was above full (window completely covered) so I went and pored some on a pan till I could be certain it was slightly bellow the F mark. Tried to start again, no problems but the above symptom remained. Thinking this would be an easy fix I though, maybe the spark plug got covered in oil or smth, so I went and replaced it with a new dpr8ea-9. This *almost* resolve the situation but it would still stall sometimes if I do the same. When it does happen it always happens in the same way: start -> idling with choke open (20s) -> idling with choke halfway through (30s) -> idling with choke closed (1m) -> Sudden throttle opening by me (1s) -> throttle release (me again) -> bike back to idling for a fraction of a second -> bike stalls sometimes, if it doesn't stall it feels like its "right about to stall" for a fraction of a second (have seen the lights almost blink) but it will retake its normal idling. One thing to note: The more I open the throttle in this sudden motion, the more likely the bike is to stall. I'm attaching a pic of the replaced spark plug and from all I know it shows signs of a too rich condition (no oil though), but I'm not 100% if this is normal with this bike. I'm thinking that maybe the revs are too low when idling or smth and that's why it stalls but it doesn't if I don't do the sudden "brooom" so I'm really not sure. Even if it was the case I don't have a tachometer to attach to it so I'm not sure how would I adjust this. So far I haven't made any adjustments to the idle speed. Also, I haven't take the bike out since I first parked it for repairs so I don't know whether not using it for 1-2 months can be the culprit some how. Ideas? Solutions? I really need some help here Thanks a lot! |
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Title: Re: 2014 with idling problems Post by Serowbot on 04/15/15 at 17:16:33 Set your idle speed (knurled knob near the choke) so that the bike runs about 10mph idling in 1st gear... It should purr smoothly at idle, not stumble like a Harley... Too low an idle will cook the head,... not enough oil pressure... |
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Title: Re: 2014 with idling problems Post by reynaldo on 04/15/15 at 17:26:15 Hey Serowbot, thanks a lot for the info. Just a question though. Any idea why this didn't happen before? Is it normal to have to adjust the idle speed after an oil change or once in a while? What about the sparkplug picture attached, does it look to you like its running too rich? From all I know that sparkplug was there for something like 10 months. If this is the case, is there an easy procedure to adjust this? |
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Title: Re: 2014 with idling problems Post by Serowbot on 04/15/15 at 17:42:26 Idle speed shouldn't change unless something is blocked or leaking... Do you have a stock petcock?... they are notoriously flaky... |
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Title: Re: 2014 with idling problems Post by reynaldo on 04/15/15 at 17:56:01 Yeah. I have the stock one but as the problem started after the oil and filter change and got better after replacing the sparkplug I'm trying to find some logic to it :/ A thing I mentioned in my first post that I'm not sure you considered but I keep thinking it's related is that the chances of the engine stalling increase if I open the throttle more. Do you guys see some pattern on this? Something I could have done wrong in the oil/filter replacement process maybe? something else to check before pumping up the idle revs? |
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Title: Re: 2014 with idling problems Post by Serowbot on 04/15/15 at 18:14:19 It is possible to install the oil filter backwards... This will create huge backpressure that will eventually blow a hole in the sidecase... *that might slow the engine and stall... I don't know)... You may want to check that... :-/... |
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Title: Re: 2014 with idling problems Post by Kris01 on 04/15/15 at 18:25:57 That plug does look a little black and sooty. Probably running a little rich. Have you rejetted the carb? Maybe a previous owner did? "Old" thinking on this forum was a little on the rich side. Thanks to Dave and his O2 meter tuning we've started to rejet with a 50 pilot and 150 main (plus you may have to play with the washers to adjust the midrange). Sounds like a carb problem to me. |
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Title: Re: 2014 with idling problems Post by reynaldo on 04/15/15 at 18:41:46 Interesting. It's not installed backwards but its not a suzuki branded one (hard to find it here). It's a Mann filter mh 68 (not chinese), supposedly designed for the bike (found it by searching for the Suzuki part number). Do you think it can be the culprit? I wouldn't expect them to be THAT bad. Here's a link to the product description: http://catalog.mann-filter.com/EU/eng/catalog/MANN-FILTER%20Katalog%20Europa/Vehicles/MOTORCYCLES/SACHS/650/Roadster%20650%20%28T29932%29/Oil%20Filter/MH%2068%3Bjsessionid=4CC7110BEABB76B800B4CBCE92B1B068 Local shops here (chile) wanted to sell me an aftermarket filter made for the DR250 but I found them too flaky and they are also shorter by some 5m than the original one. I ended up buying 2 Chinese and 2 Mann and decided to go with the latter (picture attached) because it matched the original in almost ever dimension but two manufacturing details on the inner side it has an spring instead of a stud and on the backside a plastic piece (better for accidental reversing?) instead of metal (pictures attached). Whatever the case I guess I will try with the Chinese ones tomorrow see if they make any difference. |
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Title: Re: 2014 with idling problems Post by reynaldo on 04/15/15 at 18:43:04 Mann and original front |
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Title: Re: 2014 with idling problems Post by reynaldo on 04/15/15 at 18:44:17 Mann and original back |
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Title: Re: 2014 with idling problems Post by reynaldo on 04/15/15 at 18:55:41 Kris01 Thanks for the info. I do suspect there's a too rich condition too but this bike was idling ok before the oil+filter change so I'm inclined to think its not carb related. Although I would love to get some help with the carb adjustments/rejetting latter on :) I'm not sure about the previous owner rejeting it tbh. Will try to find out. Anything to look for other than wear on the carb's nuts and bolts? |
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Title: Re: 2014 with idling problems Post by Serowbot on 04/15/15 at 19:00:40 I don't use Suzuzki filters either,... I use HiFlo... Suzuki don't even make filters.. they buy them from the lowest bidder anyway... ;D... Another possibility is,... you didn't drain the oil... You said you put in 2 liters and it was way too full?... Many newbies remove the wrong bolt to drain the oil... http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1270090025 http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee201/Digger109/OilDrainPlugE.jpg |
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Title: Re: 2014 with idling problems Post by Kris01 on 04/15/15 at 19:15:33 Has the brass plug on the idle mix screw been removed? If so, maybe it has been rejetted. Let me try to find a picture. |
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Title: Re: 2014 with idling problems Post by Kris01 on 04/15/15 at 19:16:34 Here ya go: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1221818822/0#0 |
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Title: Re: 2014 with idling problems Post by Dave on 04/16/15 at 03:15:00 Sitting 2 months is enough time for the ethanol fuel to corrode something in the carb. It is also enough time that the fuel can begin to degrade...fresher fuel may help considerably. Most likely it is more apt to stall when you open the throttle more....because the RPM's are higher. When the engine is spinning and you close the throttle after the "BROOM"....the jets that meter fuel are all closed except the idle (pilot) circuit. The high vacuum pulls a lot of air past the slide and butterfly - but there is very little fuel to mix with it and the fuel mixture therefore goes horribly lean. The TEV valve in the carb is supposed to help with this condition....and it may be plugged up. I also believe the TEV was set up to work with ethanol free fuel - and it may not richen the mixture enough with E10 to correct for the lean condition. Make sure your idle is high enough, add some Seafoam or other fuel system cleaner, and avoid going "BROOM" if that make the bike stall. There really isn't any reason to go "BROOM"....the bike doesn't achieve any benefit from that - just gently open the throttle and ride the bike....cracking the throttle open on this bike really doesn't serve any purpose. If after running a few tanks of fuel through the bike the situation doesn't return to normal or the bike is not running well...then take the carb apart and clean it. If you have not been riding the bike and that black plug condition was discovered after starting the bike on choke and warming it up in the driveway.....don't worry about it. You really need to take the bike out and ride it and get it fully warmed up before a plug reading has any meaning. |
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Title: Re: 2014 with idling problems Post by reynaldo on 04/16/15 at 09:52:01 Thanks for all the info guys. Appreciated. Kris01: It was the right bolt & my drain pan got filled with about 1,5l of old oil. About the brass plug on the idle mix screw, it's still there. I performed the draining with the bike sitting on the stand though, maybe I should have tried to lean it in the other direction at some point. Dave: Will try with fresh fuel. Wouldn't have imagined fresh fuel to make a lot of difference after two months so thanks for the hint. About the old plug, yeah, I took it out after changing oil/filter and noticing the bike stalling under the described conditions. This was also after the 2 months of storage, before that I think I drove the bike for about 1k km. The deposits in the sparkplug itself though look quite stiff and solid, like if they were old enough to think the rich condition has been there for a while. But my ignorance should be factored on all these conclusions :) Few questions for everyone: Whats TEV and E10? What kind of external tachometer would I need to adjust the idle speed if I wanted to be 100% accurate? Are there any other formulas to perform this without a proper tool in addition to the 10mph idle speed at first gear that serowbot mentioned? Still thinking about the old filter, has anyone experienced similar problems with a bad filter? What are the symptoms you'd expect to see/ear if the filter was the one at fault? Is there any way to test the filter for correct operation? Is there any easy way to perform a light cleanup work on the carb without disassembling it fully? Thanks again for all your help guys. |
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Title: Re: 2014 with idling problems Post by Dave on 04/16/15 at 10:15:59 The TEV is the Transient Enrichment Valve. It is located on the right side at the front of the carb....and I believe there are three screws holding the diaphragm in place. When you shut the throttle and decelerate, the fuel jets are closed and the engine goes lean. The TEV is supposed to open in these conditions and provide some extra fuel so the engine doesn't backfire or stall. E10 is gasoline with 10% ethanol added - and it is what comes out of most fuel pumps in the US. There is also E15 and E85 that should never be run in the Savage or anything but a "FLEX FUEL" car. The ethanol requires a richer air/fuel ratio than gasoline, and he E10 runs just a bit lean in an engine made to run on gasoline. I believe he TEV valve may be similar...and just can't flow enough fuel to work as it should. I did a long test on fuel, and the Premium Pump Gas started to fail in just 50 days. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1382699778 |
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Title: Re: 2014 with idling problems Post by greenmonster on 04/16/15 at 10:16:50 Can you do me a favour and turn your petcock to Prime and try again with it no longer running with the vacuum? |
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Title: Re: 2014 with idling problems Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/16/15 at 11:47:10 Prime flows , full flow, no vac needed. |
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Title: Re: 2014 with idling problems Post by reynaldo on 04/16/15 at 12:24:00 Thanks again for the info guys. Dave: I'm using 95 octane gas, I have no information on the amount of ethanol that is present on the Chilean mix but will try to figure out. Surprise surprise. I took the bike out for a short ride around town. It performed quite normally, no stalls and predictable acceleration as far as I can tell (Not a lot of experience with the bike nor bikes in general). After the ride I went for lunch and after finishing I tried the prime test suggested by greenmonster - the bike didn't stall. Additionally, I tried doing the same with the petcock in its normal "on" position and it didn't stall neither. So, I'm quite puzzled, I guess it deals with the motor being warmed up already but I keep thinking that it shouldn't stall no matter what (cold or warm), and this is what I remember from before the bike was stored, It never stalled. Anyway, I recorded a short video here so you can take a look and help me figure out if the small "about to stall" moment shows signs of the idle speed being too low (video recorded with petcock in the "on" position, I also performed the test on prime with no noticeable differences): https://youtu.be/CpJ7DIA-5AE I'm happy though. At least I'm almost sure now that if the bike is warm it wont stall :) Now on the possible too rich condition, I took a picture of the first section of the exhaust as it's quite blueish - brown. Considering this bike has 2700 Km on it (almost new), do you think this decoloration is normal? might it support the idea of the motor running too rich? Thanks again for all your help guys! You rock! |
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Title: Re: 2014 with idling problems Post by Dave on 04/16/15 at 12:41:53 So you are located in Chili?.....you may not have any ethanol in your fuel. Update your personal profile to include where you live and we can hopefully provide information that is more suitable for where you live. Well....I watched the video, and that looks pretty normal to me. There really isn't any reason to do that with the throttle....open and close the throttle at a slower rate and your bike will thank you for it. |
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Title: Re: 2014 with idling problems Post by reynaldo on 04/16/15 at 15:09:45 Hi Dave. Thanks for taking a look at the video So I will proceed at riding the bike with new fuel and see how it behaves. Regarding the possible too rich condition, would you consider the blue/brownish tint/decoloration on the exhaust pipe (picture attached in the previous post) as an indicator that might confirm this? As I said before the bike has barely 2.7Km on it (around 1.7K with the previous owner). I haven't abused the bike and I have drove it pretty much always around 60-70mph max. While I'm new to bikes I have been driving a stick for more than 2 decades so I would like to think I have a proper sense for gear/rev/speed shifting. I usually stop every 2 hours or so on long drives too. If the pipe is getting too hot I don't think I'm the one at fault. But then I'm not sure whether that decoloration after a few thousand km is to be expected. Can you guys confirm? Thanks a lot |
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Title: Re: 2014 with idling problems Post by greenmonster on 04/16/15 at 15:54:07 If it is getting too hot, it is more likely to be too lean. Factory settings are actually too lean on this bike. It's how they get through EPA restrictions. |
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Title: Re: 2014 with idling problems Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/16/15 at 16:23:03 Revving it up sitting still will blue the pipe. |
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Title: Re: 2014 with idling problems Post by reynaldo on 04/17/15 at 08:16:58 Hi guys, thanks for your comments: Grennmonster: I see. Considering the previous sparkplug came out quite charcoal-ish I will recheck the sparkplug after a few hundred kms and make a decision on this. I might end up adjusting the idle mix screw then. Do you guys think this is a sane approach ^ ? Justin: Yeah, I'd guess but honestly, I havent been cranking the revs on idle that long. Was pretty much a few test I did when I got the bike and now after the storage when I noticed this apparent fault (bike is pretty much new). So, to adjust or not to adjust the idle mix screw right now, that's pretty much the last question :) Thanks a lot guys! |
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Title: Re: 2014 with idling problems Post by Dave on 04/17/15 at 09:42:45 Adjust: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxpQjDQzX7g |
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Title: Re: 2014 with idling problems Post by reynaldo on 04/17/15 at 09:45:48 Dave: Thanks for the link but, shall I adjust to a leaner mix considering the old sparkplug appearance or a richer one considering the exhaust pipe bluening? Thanks a lot! |
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Title: Re: 2014 with idling problems Post by Dave on 04/17/15 at 10:26:41 2A3D213639343C37580 wrote:
Ignore your spark plug color.....the idle mixture has almost nothing to do with the color of the spark plug. The rpm at idle won't ever keep a spark plug hot enough to read a proper color. Idle mixtures are set by "ear"....not by "eye". |
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Title: Re: 2014 with idling problems Post by Gary_in_NJ on 04/17/15 at 11:05:05 A low compression, air-cooled engine like the one in a LS650 is almost always going to have an ugly plug. Our engines use fuel for cooling the valves and piston dome. By design the mixture has to be on the rich side. The only way to get a valuable plug read is to perform a series of "plug runs" or "plug chops" with a new plug. It's a time consuming process and is generally used to extract the last bit of horsepower from the engine. As Dave said, your ears and your ass (my add) will get you 90% towards a well jetted engine. |
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Title: Re: 2014 with idling problems Post by reynaldo on 04/17/15 at 13:35:12 Thanks again for all the info guys. I will adjust the idle speed knob and let you know how it goes. Cheers, |
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