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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1428308434 Message started by Rylee on 04/06/15 at 01:20:34 |
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Title: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by Rylee on 04/06/15 at 01:20:34 So I bought the 96 savage with a RYCA bobber kit pretty much installed. Got it home and took just over a month cleaning up wiring, working out the bugs and getting it cosmetically in shape. Not knowing what all mods had been done I slowly started to break into the internals to have a look. Replaced the cam chain tensioner with one of Verslagen's cause she was out about 18mm. I ordered a jet set from Lancer not really knowing if the carb had been cracked open but with the way it was running took a shot in the dark. At about a 1/4 throttle held in place there's a terrible miss. I started by replacing the spark plug. It wasn't in terrible shape. Had some black to it but dry. Current mods are as follows: elbow with cone filter and RYCA header with their reverse cone muffler original baffle inside. Brass plug had been removed and upon investigation learned it was 2 turns out. When I cracked the carb open today I found 3 washers and a 152.5 main jet and a 55 pilot. If the stock main is 145 and the pilot is 52.5 that would be 3 steps up on the main and one on the pilot. I've read Lancers carb tuning and Serowbots tuning what seems like 100 times each and I can't for the life of me figure out why that particular setup and why it has the terrible miss/surge at 1/4 throttle. The bike has 18k miles. Good compression. Valves have been adjusted correctly. At 3/4 turn she lights up like the 4th of July and has no issues getting out of her own way. Unfortunately I dont ride at 3/4 throttle I ride at 1/4 throttle right where the god forsaken problem is. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Side note. I cleaned the carb today while I had it apart and put it back together as it was but with the new jets of the same size as before. I want to see if a possible clog was the issue since someone already jetted it and may have had it tuned correctly and it was just dirty. I know I have a small exhaust leak where the slip on and header mate up. That will be remedied this coming week with a new custom exhaust. From that point I will embark on tuning it again. |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe... Post by Rylee on 04/06/15 at 01:30:30 Oh...I was not able to ride it after getting it all done so I can't update as to how it runs until tomorrow. I had a few other things I wanted to do and time ran late had to help get toddlers to bed. Did manage to also get booties on, adjust chain slack, replaced the side mount lisence holder since the previous one snapped off on the freeway on Thursday. Lucky the wiring zip tied kept it attached in a way that it didn't jump into the rear wheel. Had to ride to work and then home with the tag zip tied to my backpack and no lights...not fun. Also spun the fender up and around it's axis of travel, couldn't understand having a full length rear fender and it's design only allows it to cover about 3" of exposed tire behind the seat. Tomorrow morning I'll take it for a spin, warm it up enough to adjust the idle mixture properly and see if the cleaning made a difference. Oh and glad I did this, found that my fuel line was stressed cracked it the petcock so that got replaced and a filter out in line since I have the harley peanut tank and I'm not sure if the petcock has it's own filter like the stock does. |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe... Post by Serowbot on 04/06/15 at 01:38:58 Well yuck,... Tuning is an incremental thing... Many people want radical improvement, and think that a radical boost in jetting will give radical increase in power... Not so... I would start decreasing jetting,... particularly on the pilot... ...and the intake set-up sounds like fashion, over function... (if you don't know what you're doing, you can booger up performance with wishful mods... any pics?).... |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe... Post by Gary_in_NJ on 04/06/15 at 04:57:32 From 1/4 throttle to 3/4 throttle it's all needle. Remove one of the shims (washers) from the needle stack and see if that improves things. Make only one change at a time, otherwise you'll have no idea what is working and what isn't. Leave the jets as is...they aren't that too far off (if at all). Three shims is excessive. |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe... Post by Dave on 04/06/15 at 05:25:16 When you say "there is a terrible miss"....can you tell if the engine is blubbering as if there is too much fuel - or surging as if the mixture is lean? |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe... Post by WD on 04/06/15 at 07:18:31 1. Put a new vacuum cap over the old petcock vacuum feed port on the carburetor. Odds are, it is leaking or non-existent. 2. 1 needle washer is generally sufficient, especially with those jet sizes. 3. Get rid of that inline fuel filter, the carburetor has enough trouble getting fuel as it is. If you just "have" to run one, swing by any auto parts store and get one spec'd for a 1969 D100 with a 318... it is big, it is ugly, but it holds enough fuel to keep the engine from starving out. |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe... Post by Rylee on 04/06/15 at 09:22:49 @Serowbot here is a pic of the filter setup. It's the RYCA elbow for the cafe builds. I didn't like how the cone was basically stuffed between the underside of the solo seat and the fake oil can for electronics. This change did nothing however with the way it's running. If anything it actually helped a small amount. @Gary that was my intended 1st plan of action. I'd like to give the PO the benefit of the doubt and say it was jetted this way for a reason. So I'm gonna start with a washer removed. @Dave. I really wanna say it's surging. It's like hesitate/jump continually unless I turn the throttle a bit more then it clears up @WD I did check the cap on the vacuum petcock because I was curious why one was covered yet 2 were left untouched. It's in good shape but I replaced it anyways. Gonna fire it up now, get it up to temp and adjust the idle mixture and see how she does with just a good cleaning. I plan on starting by removing a washer. If that doesn't help I'll go back and start adjusting jets up or down. Gonna be a fun ride for sure. I have a tach/speedo combo coming any cay now so I will be able to use the tach to help tune. Thank you everyone for the input. One thing I forgot to mention last night in my 1am delerium when I start her I use 1 click on the choke. Ride away she runs spectacular. It's how I can tell te choke has shut off as soon as it closes I immediately feel the surging. Pull the choke back out 1 click and boom runs perfect. |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe... Post by Gary_in_NJ on 04/06/15 at 09:36:13 37756F6D646964060 wrote:
Yep, lean surging. Running better on the choke confirms it. The single shim change should get you where you need to be. |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe... Post by Rylee on 04/06/15 at 09:38:38 Man I hope that's it. Here's a pic of the spark plug. Has about 400 miles on it. Some black around the end threads and looks a bit burnt on the tip. About to fire up now I'll post up shortly. |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe... Post by Dave on 04/06/15 at 09:43:01 My bike surged with 3 washers...regardless of what size jet I had in it. The final cure was to remove 1 washer and I ended up with just 2, and the surge was gone. If the bike runs really well at full throttle....leave that alone for now. Adjust the idle fuel mixture screw as shown in this video.....if you can turn the screw in to less than 1 turn and the engine still is getting smoother....then your Pilot jet is too big (pretty likely with a #55). If you have to turn the mixture screw out more than 2 turns...then the pilot jet is too small or something is plugged up (with a #55 pilot this is not likely to happen). The screw is not something you adjust to 1.5 or 2 turns because someone else did...you need to set this screw for your bike and your riding elevation by ear. Start with 1.5 turns out, and then adjust to what the bike needs to run the smoothest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxpQjDQzX7g The next thing to fuss with is the needle and the washer.....and the needle is what controls the fuel mixture between 1/4 and 3/4 - but I found that anytime you were accelerating at relaxed speed that blended in with car traffic.....it was surging. Removing one washer solved that for me (#50 pilot, #150 main, 2 washers, stock airbox). And those two brass nipples on the back of the carb are supposed to have tubing to extend them up to the cavity in the frame under the fuel tank...they are vents. |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe... Post by Gary_in_NJ on 04/06/15 at 10:23:42 For the purpose of determining mixture/carb settings, it's difficult to read a plug with 400 miles on it. What you are reading are many warm-ups on choke and every possible throttle setting. Where is it rich...where is it lean...who can tell? If you want to perform a "plug read", it's best to start and warm-up the bike on the existing plug, swap-out to a new plug, perform a throttle position run (i.e. 1/2 throttle), and then review the plug. This method works great for a dirt bike (easy access to plug) but is a bit cumbersome for the S40. For your S40 you are better served with a "seat-of-the-pants" calibration of the carb. |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe... Post by Rylee on 04/06/15 at 11:09:16 I'd like to start by saying if your a guest or a lurker and reading this sign up for this site. There are years of knowledge here. Individuals who have been there, had your problem and spent countless hours trying to diagnose it. Then when they've finally worked it out and got it right they come here and with nothing more than the occasional pat on the back they bestow on you their knowledge. Ok now on to the bike... Fired up and went for a test run. Got it warm, adjusted idle screw and still surging. Came back home popped open the carb and pulled a washer. Reset idle screw to 1 1/2 turns and went out again. Got it warm, adjusted the idle screw 2 1/2 times until the RPMs stopped climbing then Backed it down a 1/4 turn for good measure. Jumped on and wouldn't ya know, no more surging. No more backfire in between shifts, no more poppity pop pop pop at throttle release and no more loud poof at shut down. She runs like god intended her, strong and clean. For those just tuning in 152.5 Main 55 Pilot 2 washers (included in Lancers kit) 2 1/4 turns on the idle mixture screw K&N cone filter RYCA header and reverse cone slip on Between 50ft and 500ft elevation (general riding) Low humidity Average air thickness Average temp fluctuation from 55 low to 75 high (love Cali) Now a huge thanks to Serowbot and Lancer for their I depth tuning write ups. I learned everything g I thought I already knew about carbs. And a big thanks to Everyone's helpful suggestions and spot on advice! Gonna enjoy riding it now |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by Rylee on 04/06/15 at 22:40:24 Seriously wtf! Come out of work tonight like always, pull the choke 1 position and fire it up. Seemed like it was idling super high for just one tab on the choke. Let it run for a bit hop on and head home. Get about 2 miles down the road and choke disengages and it's immediately surging. Get to a light and it dies. Fire it back up and hold the throttle just enough to produce a steady idle and it popping in the carb. Get it home surging all the way and as I turn to my entrance I shut it off and pow a huge backfire that set off a car alarm in someone's garage. I haven't changed anything since it was adjusted today. Road it to work and it was fine. No popping no backfires hell it didn't even poof when I shut it off now it's spitting and sputtering and what seems like backfiring in the carb. What the hell did I do? |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by WD on 04/06/15 at 22:52:48 65273D3F363B36540 wrote:
Arco or BP gas? Savages can run on darn near anything, but that 10% ethanol, 26% water blend. Add some blue Sta-bil and a splash of automatic transmission fluid to your fuel. Then, once that tank is run out, fill it up with marina gas (pure gas). We just went through the same thing with an 88 Geezer Glide that sat all winter with modern blended fuel in t. |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by Rylee on 04/06/15 at 23:50:17 @WD As far as I know the bike hasn't sat for more than a week or so without running. As far as gas goes I use Mobil 90% of the time because that's where I have a gas card. The only variable that changed from the time I left for work till the time I got off was temperature. It a as low 70s when I rode there and upper 50s when I left. Something's definitely not right. It was idling way higher than usually with the choke on. And it was for sure backfiring in the carb. That boom when I why it off was loud enough that it set of a car alarm in someone's garage. |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by Dave on 04/07/15 at 05:01:50 It sounds like you got some dirt in the carb....bummer. Is your fuel tank clean inside? Is the fuel hose in good shape? |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by Rylee on 04/07/15 at 08:22:42 744F4255444853554E464B54270 wrote:
Fuel tank is spotless. And I replaced the fuel line before the final adjustment. That's what's killing me all I did after the washer removal was ride it. I adjusted the idle mixture up to 2 1/4 turns and rode it and it was near perfect. Stopped surging and popping and all. That was the last time I touched it. I rode it home, posted it was good then rode to work and still good. But after work something was definitely off. The popping back into the carb is what bothers me. |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by Dave on 04/07/15 at 08:28:53 The popping back through the carb can be caused by too lean of a fuel mixture. I am not sure what the symptoms of a sticky slide are....maybe the high idle and coughing could be.....the CV slide is supposed to drop down whenever the intake vacuum drops. |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by Serowbot on 04/07/15 at 08:39:55 52696473626E757368606D72010 wrote:
I think it would depend on where it sticks... up, down, or in between... Symptoms could be all over the place... :-/... |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by verslagen1 on 04/07/15 at 09:12:20 stuck slide is no throttle response, or sudden throttle response. I would revisit the washer change, per haps something is off. common after having the top off, is not getting the slide spring back in correctly. I don't remember what getting the needle retainer plate backwards does. |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by Gary_in_NJ on 04/07/15 at 09:37:14 3E2D3A3B24292F2D2679480 wrote:
I don't know either, but the manual is clear that it has to go back so the tab on the lockplate is pushing down on the spacer ring. |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by Rylee on 04/07/15 at 09:50:30 So if I put that back together wrong would it have been delayed in showing an issue. I rode the bike 2 seperate times for 5+ miles to tune it. The. Rode it to work and had no issues. It wasn't until after work it was off. |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by Rylee on 04/07/15 at 09:54:53 3E34303A31383C356B6D69590 wrote:
I don't know either, but the manual is clear that it has to go back so the tab on the lockplate is pushing down on the spacer ring. [/quote] By the tab on the lock plate your referring to the small tab in between the two B's in the photo. I don't remember if I put that so it was up or down. But everything else was correct |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by Bubba on 04/07/15 at 10:40:08 Just throwing it out there but I think your pilot jet is too small... I run a 52.5 w/ bleed holes and I'm at a mile high... if it runs better with the choke on you richen the mix... |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by Rylee on 04/07/15 at 10:47:43 I'm gonna open it up again. To be honest I had such a hard time getting that plate lined up and the screws in and started I really don't remember if the tab was up or down. After about 10 tries when I finally got a screw to seat I was so happy I just finished it off. Kinda bummed I got a free pass from the wife to go catch the early bird showing of Furious 7 today now I gotta tear the carb apart again so no movie. |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by Gary_in_NJ on 04/07/15 at 10:50:46 There are two carb threads that are active right now. Read some of the suggestions in there, especially as it relates to an air/vac leak. Your top cover may have come loose or perhaps there is a loose clamp at the boot. |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by Rylee on 04/07/15 at 10:51:12 When I got home I checked the idle mixture screw cause I thought being close to 3 turns it had possibly backed itself out further bit it was still at the same spot. |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by Rylee on 04/07/15 at 12:42:50 So I cracked it open and everything was correct. But I did notice something that looked wrong. I've pulled a pic for. One of the carb tuning threads. There are two jets in the bowl where the washer mod is done. One is displayed and the other the original thread poster didn't know what it was for. That particular jet looked clogged. I pulled it out and ran some fishing line through it and it's clean now. I'm guessing my cleaning job freed up some debri that didn't make it out of the carb and that particular jet was affected. If you look in the pic it's the jet that's says don't know what this does...choke circuit maybe |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by Rylee on 04/07/15 at 13:46:37 Ok got it all back together fired it up on the bike lift let it warm up and it idled normal on the choke. Choke kicked off fast and it idled fine. I adjusted the idle mix screw again and got it back to almost where I had it before. Seems I'm right at 3 turns. Just out of curiosity should I go up another jet size being at 3 turns or if it ain't broke don't fix it should apply here? |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by Bubba on 04/07/15 at 14:36:40 I'd just ride it...to the movies! |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by MnSpring on 04/07/15 at 14:56:57 One of the first things I did on the S40, was the 'Raptor'. And to possibly, prevent, any, 'crap', getting into the carb. At about every 3rd fill, I turn it to, 'RES', not 'ON'. So anything in the tank, just runs through. This is done, AFTER, warmed up, and driving. At a stop, it is off, then to on, after warm and driving, for 5 + min or so, switch over to, 'RES'. And I do this for the next 100 miles or so. About every 3 tank. Just for piece of mind, and any crap, that may be in the tank, is running, 'fast', through the carb, and not, 'laying in wait', to clog things up, when/if, RES is really needed. Just a though, after you get you carb problems sorted out. Doing this, 'may', prevent any blockage. 'May' not. But, I suppose it's like clapping and turning a circle, when you clap, to keep away any, 'pink elephants'. Some say, "That's doesn't work". And the response is: "Ya see any Pink Elephants" ! |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by Rylee on 04/07/15 at 15:20:44 MnSpring To be honest I've never even considered the petcock. Reason being I have the RYCA bobber kit build that comes with a peanut tank. I just assumed the petcock was also changed because of that tank. I've looked through their website and only see a petcock option for the larger capacity tank of which I do not have. So it's very possible I have the stock savage petcock. I know it's installed backwards where the adjuster it facing the frame not the outside of the bike. I'm gonna do a little research and see exactly what I have. |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by spearheadss on 04/07/15 at 17:33:40 363C38323930343D636561510 wrote:
I have been following this thread also. I thought maybe it would trigger something in the brain housing group. |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by Rylee on 04/07/15 at 19:50:53 @spearheadss My issue ended up being the washer mod was done but 3 were used and it needed 2. The second time around I'm guessing there was some debri left over from my carb cleaning and it plugged that jet in the float bowl. I'd have to guess it does have something to do with the choke circuit because with the choke pulled it was idling at like 3k RPMs. And when riding it was popping and spitting thru the carb. I just cleaned that jet and put it back together and problem solved. Only thing that changed after that was I had to go out about another half turn on the idle mixture screw to hit that sweet spot. In the carb tuning thread that Lancer wrote he says for his personal preference anything over 2 turns he goes up on the pilot. I'm right at 3 but I already have a 55 pilot I'd have to order a 57.5 to go up and that seems a bit much for a stock engine with just a cone filter and full exhaust system. |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by old_rider on 04/07/15 at 19:55:17 I went with 2 washers also.... other thing.... make sure the slide is working. After cleaning the piston and seat for it... I oiled it, very slightly and made sure it was moving easily. That big ol' rubber diaphragm can't move the piston if it is dry or sticky....or has a lot of gunk in the way. Just another thing to look for.... hope it helps :) |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by Rylee on 04/07/15 at 21:31:34 @old_rider Didn't even think to oil the slide. I'll have to pop it back open and do that. |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by verslagen1 on 04/07/15 at 21:45:41 094B51535A575A380 wrote:
even the oil from your finger prints attracts enough dirt to cause it to stick. there's a dry lube coating on it anyway. best to keep it clean. |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by old_rider on 04/07/15 at 22:31:45 Well.... ok.... but the officer in charge at my old shop used to say.... "Lubrication is the key".... ::) ::) Sometimes I took him a little to literally :o :o :-? 8-) |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by Rylee on 04/07/15 at 23:39:26 Upon further inspection I do have a fuel valve from RYCA for my peanut tank. So no it's not a raptor but it's also not the stock savage petcock. Had me thinking because the vacuum line is sealed off so I couldn't have a stock savage petcock but I wasn't sure what style it was. Went on the RYCA site and there it is. Not sure why the design has it facing in towards the frame rail though? |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by MnSpring on 04/08/15 at 11:19:58 Quote:
Their are many, firearm products, which are a, 'dry-lub', type. They go on wet, then dry, and are very slippery. |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/08/15 at 20:56:56 I cleaned the slide and where it slides. Dried, paper towels, no fingerprints, ran Great,, no lube of any sort. |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by Rylee on 04/09/15 at 08:22:43 @MnSpring I put a little Mill-Comm TW25B I have for the bolt on my Remington 700 .338 Lapua Magnum. That was my 1st thought when you said oil the slide. It didn't seem like it was sticking but I know that's one of the best gun oils out there and it's widely used by the military and law enforcement for oiling weapons that perform in the worst conditions so I'm sure it will do the job. I contacted the PO and he confirmed it has a cam in it. Not sure why he didn't give that info when I bought it. As I was talking back and forth about what I've done he also admitted he sold it because of the cam chain tensioner and he thought the forks were bent. The front end was a little crooked when I bought it and it had a slight pull if you let to at speeds. I just loosened the fork clamps and smacked it against a pole and it straightened up. I'm guessing when he installed the lowered kit from RYCA he didn't get it back straight. He was amazed that I was able to fix everything so fast and probably kicked himself for his selling price once he realized how minimal the actual repairs were. I bought it without knowing the tensioner was at it's breaking point and thanks to this website was able to fix it before it put the engine down. I payed 3k for an 18k miles bike with a practically brand new $2500 RYCA bobber kit on it. Brand new tires and a cam installed. Seems I came out way on top of this one thanks to SuzukiSavage.com |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by savagelocal on 04/14/15 at 17:24:22 Way to stick it to the man. Funny how the person who tried to do the ripping ending up kicking himself afterwards. So much more satisfying that just getting a good deal. 8-) |
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Title: Re: Carb tuning catastrophe...*UPDATE* Post by Rylee on 04/15/15 at 08:39:11 @savagelocal The more I talked to the PO about the repairs the more his demeanor changed on the phone. He had another bike and I'm sure just did t wanna deal with the repairs. But it was obvious he realized had he spent a weekend making it right he could have gotten way more for it. I had already found this forum through googling questions about possible issues when I was talking to him about the purchase. So I knew going into the buy that the cam chain tensioner was probably on it's way out. I signed up for the forum the day I picked it up and was ready to tackle any issues before I'd even transferred the registration. This forum has allowed me an onsite into every issue it did have and any unforeseen problems. The search engine really is your friend in this case |
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