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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> The Cafe >> Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1427733331 Message started by Dave on 03/30/15 at 09:35:30 |
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Title: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by Dave on 03/30/15 at 09:35:30 OK....mpescatori is going to have to set me straight on this one. I was reading an article about a fellow who restored one of these 350cc Ducati bikes....and the article listed the top speed at 112mph. I first just figured the guy was bragging - but then it appears that this is the mph figure that Ducati had posted for this bike with a megaphone installed - but they also claim only 22 HP? http://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles/motorcycle-reviews/ducati/1970-ducati-350-desmo-ar129077.html My 30 HP 650cc single Savage and 30 HP 250cc Ninja can just barely break 100 mph. When I was at the last measured mile speed run, a fellow on a road racing BSA Gold Star 500cc single was hoping to get up to 100mph but fell a tad short. How can a 22 HP single cylinder 350cc motorcycle go 112 mph? |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/30/15 at 10:18:52 Duuude,it's a Do Kah Tee, Hellooo,, AND it's Yellow,, Arguably the fastest color,, Jeeeze Louise, I gotta essplain everything? |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by Oldfeller on 03/30/15 at 13:56:24 112 kph? That would be about right for a CB350 Honda ..... |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by HAPPYDAN on 03/30/15 at 16:57:51 5F7C7476757C7C7562100 wrote:
I had a red 1970 CB350, demo with some miles, bought new, no mods. Ran premium gas. I routinely rode 70mph on I70 in Ohio, and once on an empty back road, twisted it up to 105mph feet on the passenger pegs, laying flat on the tank. It had more to go, but started squirming (pavement?) I got scared and shut down I only wish somebody still made bikes like that. Before that, I had a Suzuki X6 hustler 250cc, easily hit 90mph. This was all before gas got weird. And how about that Kawasaki 500cc 3 cyl 2 stroke rocket sled? A buddy claimed to have cracked 120mph! |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by Dave on 03/30/15 at 17:23:47 It's not a Honda twin or a Kawasaki triple....it is a single. I understand that adding cylinders can make it easier to go faster. Honda even made a 6 cylinder 250cc racing bike in the search for speed. That is what has me baffled (or megaphoned)? Singles are not supposed to be good at making high mph speeds. And 112 mph for a single cylinder road bike is incredible. Even if it does say Ducati and is yellow. |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by bobert_FSO on 03/30/15 at 19:17:10 Part of the secret of the Ducati claim is that this was the desmo single. A desmodromic (sp?) head has two sets of rockers. One opens the valve. The other closes the valve. There are no slow-acting valve springs to cause valve float at high RPM. Those 350's would spin up to 10k RPM. I had a Ducati 250 (non-desmo) scrambler in high school. A 350 desmo was the holy grail. |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/30/15 at 19:24:48 253A3C3B2621102010283A367D4F0 wrote:
SEE? Whadi tell you? I was Right, for all the wrong reasons... I never thought about that Dezmo angle |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by Kris01 on 03/30/15 at 20:29:49 Pretty cool, huh? :) http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/Images/desmovalves_gif_ducati.gif |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by gizzo on 03/30/15 at 21:59:39 The little 250cc Mk3D could get up to 100mph as well...and could rev to 8000rpm all day or until the bottom end collapsed, whichever came first. Awesome little motorbikes and sound so good....Have ridden a couple and I can vouch for the fact that they go hard. Not as quick off the line as a Savage but wind out further. Bear in mind t that the factory test riders were 5', 50kg Italian fellows. I doubt a 350 would get near that top speed with a full size American on board. Less than 100 for a 500cc Goldie is disappointing. |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by old_rider on 03/30/15 at 22:39:28 Had me one o' them 3 cylinder Kawasaki's back in the early 80's.... sold it after about 4 months.... scared the heck outta me! Well that and I had wired a pair of vice grips to the clutch handle to hold the clutch cable.... sometimes I just had to shut it off and let it die while sliding around......cause the grips would let loose of the cable..... Yeah... I had gonads back then... well and my brain wasn't fully developed yet :D :D ::) |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by Dave on 03/31/15 at 04:14:24 Well Cycle Magazine in their 1967 test article wrote: “The 350 was more highly tuned and had a narrower powerband; the power came in at about 6,500rpm. The 350 is tuned as a street dragster; the 250 and the 450 are over-the-road bikes.” So...maybe this little Ducati single is more of a race bike than we are used to with our mildly tuned Savage single. Most single cylinder bikes made today are built for the novice or dual sport rider - where a narrow power band is not all that helpful. |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by Ed L. on 03/31/15 at 12:25:42 Just had to sell my little 1969 Ducati 250 Monza after owning it for over 10 years. It had a Scrambler cam (better top end) and the smaller valves in the head but still could top 85mph even with my big 200 lb butt on it. 112 mph for a 350cc Ducati is what they were rated at, I believe it, the Desmo heads with twin plugs and big valves made any of the bevel head singles screamers. Even my 250cc Monza was rated over at 20hp and that was with a 9.5:1 piston. If I remember correctly Ducati offered pistons up to 11:1 compression for thier singles, was lookig into a hi compression piston for a rebuild of the Monza but didn't want to have to deal with kick starting it. Sweden copied or used the Ducati 450 Wide case single made in the early 70's for thier military. Saw one at an reenactment a few years ago all dressed up in military drab, real nice. Think it was called a Falcon or Zephyr can't remember :(. Another lost single to lust for :) :) |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by gizzo on 03/31/15 at 13:00:01 That would be the swiss Condor. Moto Trans in Spain made Ducati singles under license as well, nice bikes by all accounts. The condors are becoming sought after as a less expensive way to build a shotgun replica. |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by zipidachimp on 03/31/15 at 13:11:01 cheap at half the price! http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/van/mcy/4957930847.html ducati singles were lightweight bikes with strong engines, engines were part of the frame. raced a 250 mark 3 back in '70s, non-desmo. sold it after I got married for $350.00 >:( |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by Ed L. on 03/31/15 at 16:25:43 Condor, yeah that's it, nice 450 single, thanks. |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by Serowbot on 03/31/15 at 17:58:58 It seems to take about 40hp to get a bike up to 100mph... 30hp will get you to 90,... 20hp will get to about 75mph... 22hp will do the ton off a cliff...(if you tuck)... ;D... |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by Kris01 on 03/31/15 at 19:27:46 93 if you don't tuck? |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by Art Webb on 03/31/15 at 19:39:40 6573647961747962160 wrote:
not so fast, a Rebel has 16 HP, and it'll do 75-80 |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by gizzo on 03/31/15 at 21:03:22 4650475A42575A41350 wrote:
Assuming all bikes are the same size shape and weight, right? Moto Minarelli, 50cc, 20hp, 133mph. |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by Serowbot on 03/31/15 at 21:19:49 6D777371704E7F6C6A6C777A797B1E0 wrote:
Big cliff and a tailwind?... :-/... |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by gizzo on 03/31/15 at 22:07:04 Not really.... Bonneville salt flats 2006 http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/more-on-motorcycle-land-speed-records-set-at-bonneville/ It's a silly example for sure. But illustrates that one set of numbers doesn't fit all. |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by Dave on 04/01/15 at 03:59:03 28323634350B3A292F29323F3C3E5B0 wrote:
OK...this thread started out talking about a 350cc, 4 stroke, single cylinder, street legal Ducati that could go 112mph with a megaphone exhaust installed. Now we are talking about a 50cc, 2 stroke, single cylinder race motor in a streamliner on the Bonneville Salt Flats that went 133mph. At least they both 2 wheels and have Italian made engines! ;) And if the streamliner was yellow....they might have that in common as well. |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/01/15 at 06:21:28 The great warriors, the Payute, used the word yellow in describing the fast ones among them. The battle started, he left Fast, he is yellow.. So, yellow is fast. Simple, Why doesn't everyone KNOW this kinda stuff.? |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by Dave on 04/01/15 at 06:23:00 4355425F47525F44300 wrote:
Serowbot: Just for giggles....use that formula you have stored somewhere and calculate the HP requirements for some MPH milestones....like 50, 100, 150, 200....it will be interesting to see how the HP requirements skyrocket as the speed increases. Air gets to be a huge barrier as the speeds increase. |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by Dave on 04/01/15 at 06:25:12 4D5254534E4978487840525E15270 wrote:
Sounds like the "yellow" guy is running away from the battle! :P |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by Serowbot on 04/01/15 at 07:42:22 60hp will get you 125mph... 100hp = 140mph... 120hp,... 150mph... 160hp,... 170mph... 200hp might tickle the double ton... Then you hit the wall...(it takes multiple HP to add even one MPH)... 250hp to get Moto GP speeds of 220mph... 225mph can take 400hp... :o... Those are more "real world" numbers... Rollie Free might do a little better... :-/... http://www.minichampsuk.com/product_images/minichamps-vincent-black-lightning-rollie-free-1948-1-12.jpg |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by gizzo on 04/01/15 at 14:27:12 42797463727E656378707D62110 wrote:
OK...this thread started out talking about a 350cc, 4 stroke, single cylinder, street legal Ducati that could go 112mph with a megaphone exhaust installed. Now we are talking about a 50cc, 2 stroke, single cylinder race motor in a streamliner on the Bonneville Salt Flats that went 133mph. At least they both 2 wheels and have Italian made engines! ;) And if the streamliner was yellow....they might have that in common as well.[/quote] Ok, fair comment, and I did say it was a silly example. But you're calling bullsh!t on a bike you don't know by comparing it with a japanese sit up and beg torque monster that was never built to rev, was made to last and has to haul around something the size of jay Leno. The numbers do work with my Enfield I have to admit..29hp, struggles to hit 90mph :-[ |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by Kris01 on 04/01/15 at 17:17:31 467D7067767A61677C747966150 wrote:
Serowbot: Just for giggles....use that formula you have stored somewhere and calculate the HP requirements for some MPH milestones....like 50, 100, 150, 200....it will be interesting to see how the HP requirements skyrocket as the speed increases. Air gets to be a huge barrier as the speeds increase.[/quote] FYI, if you double the speed, you quadruple the drag! ;) |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by Dave on 04/01/15 at 17:48:19 [quote author=5B4145474678495A5C5A414C4F4D280 link=1427733331/15#26 date=1427923632][quote author=42797463727E656378707D62110 link=1427733331/15#21 date=1427885943]Ok, fair comment, and I did say it was a silly example. But you're calling bullsh!t on a bike you don't know by comparing it with a japanese sit up and beg torque monster that was never built to rev, was made to last and has to haul around something the size of jay Leno. The numbers do work with my Enfield I have to admit..29hp, struggles to hit 90mph :-[/quote] I never said the Ducati 350 could not go 112mph. The only thing I said I didn't believe...was the 22HP rating....and they were going that fast with a single cylinder bike. There must be something different about how they measured that number....since 30 HP bikes can barely get to 100 mph today. My 1974 Suzuki TM 125 was supposed to be 21 HP....and it would most likely go about 70mph at most. My purpose in posting this was to understand what they were doing that could allow a 350cc single cylinder street bike to go 112! After all this discussion I have come to the understanding that the 350cc version had an engine that was close to being a streetable race engine.....and that for some reason the 22 HP rating they list just doesn't make sense. |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by Art Webb on 04/01/15 at 22:00:18 as someone else noted, it's not just HP, all motos are very 'dirty' aerodynamically, and drag is generally the limiting factor at the top end But like I said, mt Rebel would hit 75 on a good day, on relatively level ground, and 80+ if I laid down on the tank with my feet on the rear pegs, with 16 HP Admittedly it' was a twin, but 16 hp is 16 hp |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by mpescatori on 04/02/15 at 01:41:08 OK, permission to butt in... For starters, there is a lot of confusion over "what is bhp and how many bhp will your motor produce ?" You guys are accustomed to SAE net bhp ratings, in Europe we use DIN ratings; the difference can be anything from 10% to almost 20%. Secondly, 22bhp (DIN) was the rating for the 350cc "Diana" i.e. the street touring model. BHP figures for the "Sport Desmo" were never made public, but... ... big valves, hot cam, dual ignition (which fired simultaneously) big carb, high-compression piston AND desmo valves... The Sport Desmos were HOT in 250cc and 350cc variants because those were the Club Racer classes, and the slogan was very similar to the "Race it on Sunday, Sell on Monday" used for the NASCAR racers in their heyday... The 450 Desmos (432cc) on the other hand, while having a lot of potential, were never quite the commercial success they deserved because they had a sincerely hard time against the 500cc Norton Manx and the budding japanese twins and fours... I had a non-desmo 450 Scrambler, which officially only had 32bhp... ...yet it would burble along at 2000 rpm at 60kph, meaning it was theoretically possible to reach 180 kph at the 6000 rpm redline. So... add big valves, hot cam, dual ignition (which fired simultaneously) big carb, high-compression piston AND desmo valves... ... clipons and rear sets... no front light but a numberplate (which also works as a miniature windshield when you tuck in) and those speeds are definitely achievable ! 8-) Oh... almost forgot... in those days we only had leaded 100 RON fuel, perhaps equivalent to your top-notch premium. EYE CANDY: DUCATI 350 DESMO BATTLES IT OUT WITH A ROYAL ENFIELD 2-stroke 250 single... 8-) [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-fPHY9TSq4[/media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scarGPHbfTY[/media] First lap is warmup lap, race starts at 2:50 8-) |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by mpescatori on 04/02/15 at 01:55:14 [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHn-hR69ufY[/media] Typical British accent... I nice clip that'll make you smile :) ("it's capable... reaching 100 mph... this one would cruise all day at 70!") |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by Dave on 04/02/15 at 04:35:16 Thanks Mpescatori....you aren't butting in - you were invited in the very first post. Cool videos...and definitely a cool bike. Sadly the closest thing you can buy today is a Royal Enfield or Yamaha SR400....both of which are neat retro style bikes that are a bit down on performance compared to the Ducati but will get you to 80 or 90mph at a slower pace. Sure that is fast enough - but it does help us to appreciate what the little Ducati's were capable of. http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/yamaha/2015-yamaha-sr400-first-ride-review.html |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by mpescatori on 04/02/15 at 05:34:20 457E7364757962647F777A65160 wrote:
Yup ! And this explains the "success" by small companies such as RYCA and the like. Cafè racers derived off the Savage look the part, thanks to its wet-sump engine. http://silodrome.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Ryca-CS-1-Cafe-Racer-Kit-6.jpg There were no dry-sump engines in the 1950's that I can think of, so yes, a cafe racer derived from a dual sports single might make a nice drive, but simply doesn't look right... http://https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/17/35/0d/17350d6bdfc2100bc562dc16879d1037.jpg They just don't look like they can "cut it" And Ducati are sooo busy building hotter and hotter L-twins, they don't realize there's a "big-single" market which is just budding... |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by Dave on 04/02/15 at 07:18:05 So maybe the KTM 390 is the only current bike of choice if you want a really fast, modern single? It seems to have brought back the performance of the 60's/70's....but certainly not the looks. http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/08/05/2014-ktm-390-duke-motorcycle-review-first-ride-photos-specifications/ |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by Dave on 04/02/15 at 07:57:25 I actually like the looks better with bodywork....even though I am not really a fan of sport bike looks. |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by zipidachimp on 04/02/15 at 13:02:10 a major advantage for me of the S40 is the feet-forward layout. As much as I would like to buy the rc390, my knees won't tolerate being scrunched up. No lower frame also removes the chance of modifying the layout. I'd give my left one for the ability to ride the new Yam FZ07. A hooligan bike for a 71yr hooligan! ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by gizzo on 04/02/15 at 16:37:59 How about an MT03? http://www.motorcyclenews.com/bike-reviews/yamaha/mt-03/2006/ There's a few KTM 390's at the university I work at, they look really tiny in the real, with a person on board. mpescatori, I don't wanna argue with you but there were tons of dry sump singles around in the 50's. Dry sump was the modus operandi for the brit bike industry. |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by Dave on 04/02/15 at 17:41:02 Well I suppose the MT03 is a ton of fun....just bigger than I was looking at in this exercise....I was trying to find something comparable to a 350cc single. I imagine there are several Super Moto or Motard type bikes that qualify as well. There are a lot of motorcycles I know nothing about - there are just too many possibilities. |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by mpescatori on 04/03/15 at 00:13:54 http://blackgirlsride.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/honda-cbr300r-infographic.jpg If only Aprilia, Ducati and Guzzi realized there's a "big single" market just under the horizon... not just "big twin" but "big single" as well... :-[ |
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Title: Re: Ducati....112 mph, 350cc single? Post by Dave on 04/03/15 at 04:31:07 I didn't know the Honda CBR was a single If only they could put that engine in a "standard" style retro looking chassis. |
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