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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Cold Temp No Crank - But Not Battery /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1426638983 Message started by cwtokenman on 03/17/15 at 17:36:23 |
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Title: Cold Temp No Crank - But Not Battery Post by cwtokenman on 03/17/15 at 17:36:23 I have a 2001 Savage (15K) that I currently use for a "winter beater" bike, which I typically just ride from Nov. thru Feb. here in NE Ohio. It will see 6-7000 miles during those months, and it gets ridden in all of the nasty weather. Twice this season I rode somewhere, and then the engine would not crank when it was time to go. At home, it is stored in an unheated barn, and always starts easily when I want to go somewhere. First time, I rode it 12 mi, temp was -6F. It sat for maybe 5 minutes before I returned. Hitting the start button resulted only in a relay click. Headlights were bright, even when trying to start it. Pushed it inside the shop for an hour to warm it up, and it fired right up. Second time, about 4 weeks later (and numerous successful sub -zero starts), I rode it about 2 miles, temp was -10F. It sat for about 3 hours, then again, only relay clicks. Tried to jump it from a truck - just clicks. Pushed it home. :( I left for Guatamala the next day, so the bike sat for 2 weeks, with temps mostly 0 to -30F. The day of my return, it warmed up to 5. I gave the bike a try and again, it fired right up. It just sat the whole time, no battery charge or anything, so I would think that weather would have polished off a weak battery. That was back in late Jan, and I have ridden it over 1200 miles since then without incident. Connections all looked good, but I cleaned them anyway. Bike is basically stock, but I have added a large windshield, Hippo Hands, and heated gloves for winter comfort. The gloves were not accidentally left on either time. I have had occasional trouble with the ignition switch being hard to turn because of salt and road grime, but a good cleaning takes care of that problem. My only thought is maybe moisture freezes something up, or prevents a contact from being made? But then, I would think any temp below freezing should be a problem. I can't say as I want to troubleshoot a bike out in sub-zero temps, but it works fine otherwise. Hopefully we are done with the below zero stuff for this winter. Anyone else ever have this problem? Any suggestions as to what the problem might be? I've ridden other Savages throughout the winter, and not had this problem with them. My apologies for the lengthy post. |
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Title: Re: Cold Temp No Crank - But Not Battery Post by Art Webb on 03/17/15 at 18:46:51 bear in mind that I am not well versed in the Savage, but it sounds like your no start is intermittent, even in the cold, and I think the problem could be a bad spot in the starter next ime it does this try two things rap the starter housing sharply (NOT voilently) with a medium small hammer try rolling the bike for ward in gear and release the clutch, like you're trying to push start it, but just enough to move the flywheel / starter gear to a new position, then retry if either of these work, you may need to service the starter Now if someone more experienced than me with the savage poo poos this, remember I did offer that grain of salt, though neither of these tests will hurt anything |
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Title: Re: Cold Temp No Crank - But Not Battery Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/17/15 at 18:52:26 I'd suspect the solenoid. |
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Title: Re: Cold Temp No Crank - But Not Battery Post by Kris01 on 03/17/15 at 18:53:18 Will the starter relay click if left in gear with the kickstand down while cranking? Or will it just do nothing? Maybe try bypassing the kickstand switch. I have a very rare problem with it. |
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Title: Re: Cold Temp No Crank - But Not Battery Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/17/15 at 19:05:49 . Hitting the start button resulted only in a relay click. So, a spot on the heavy contact is arc burned.. |
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Title: Re: Cold Temp No Crank - But Not Battery Post by cwtokenman on 03/17/15 at 19:25:53 Thanks for the replies thus far. Art - The second time it would not crank, I did try rapping the starter - no change. Also tried to push start it, but with all of the ice, the back wheel just skidded, not to mention tricky to get any speed up, but still wouldn't crank after those efforts either. Justin - I do have two other Savages, so I could swap the solenoid with one of them. Problem is, I likely won't know if the problem is corrected until next winter. Can a solenoid problem be intermittent like that/affected by temperature? I don't know, but it has started reliably probably 100+ times with the slightly higher temps. Kris - not sure if I understood you correctly, but just went out and hit the start button with it in gear and kickstand down, both with clutch pulled in and let out. I didn't hear any clicking (but my hearing is not the best), and the interlocks keep it from cranking. If I either put it in neutral, or put the kickstand up, the bike fires right up and runs smooth. |
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Title: Re: Cold Temp No Crank - But Not Battery Post by verslagen1 on 03/17/15 at 21:29:40 multiple potential causes. mechanical-could be cold enough to seize up the starter gear-steel vs. aluminum thermal contraction. electrical-I don't think it's the safeties, you wouldn't get the 1st click if it was. relay is more or less sealed but should just be a spring and a magnet. decomp controller is only semi sealed and we know water has gotten in there before and kicked in the starter in the middle of the night. I'd put a volt meter on the starter post to see if it were getting juice. If it is, then it's most likely mechanical. replace the starter torque limiter washers with really thin ones. They're pretty thin already. |
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Title: Re: Cold Temp No Crank - But Not Battery Post by prechermike on 03/18/15 at 03:09:50 253132292D23282B2728460 wrote:
That was my thought, I seem to be finding troubles with connections the root of troubles on many things, my truck, ATV, etc. they look good, look clean, seem tight, etc. But when I clean and reconnect them, things go back to working. I know you did this already, maybe just a word for someone else. |
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Title: Re: Cold Temp No Crank - But Not Battery Post by Dave on 03/18/15 at 04:03:09 One way to do an easy check, is to wire a light bulb between the positive cable connection on the starter - other end to the ground. You could just temporarily mount the light anywhere that you can easily see it. If you hit the starter button and nothing happens - look at the bulb. If the bulb is not lit the electricity is not going to the starter. If the bulb is lit and the starter is not moving...then the starter has an issue. |
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Title: Re: Cold Temp No Crank - But Not Battery Post by Dave on 03/18/15 at 04:10:29 67747271636464060 wrote:
This won't do anything on the Savage. The big gear on the crankshaft will freewheel when the engine is moving forward, and the starter gears and starter will not rotate at all. However - if you move the back backwards then the starter gears and starter will rotate - as the big gear on the crankshaft will engage the one-way clutch. Some forum members will be upset that I have suggested moving the engine backwards - but it won't hurt anything as the cam chain tensioner is locked into place and will not allow the chain to lose timing....and a little backward bump often happens when the engine is shut down and the piston comes up on the compression stroke...that is why Suzuki had to add the torque limiter in the starter gear. |
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Title: Re: Cold Temp No Crank - But Not Battery Post by verslagen1 on 03/18/15 at 07:27:57 If you don't have a '95 or later, or have added the torque limiter to your bike, you risk serious damage backing up your bike in gear. That said, unless you have a free spinning starter, backing it up probably won't spin it anyway. |
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Title: Re: Cold Temp No Crank - But Not Battery Post by Serowbot on 03/18/15 at 07:32:55 Are you wearing heated clothing on these rides?... |
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Title: Re: Cold Temp No Crank - But Not Battery Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/18/15 at 08:05:38 2731263B23363B20540 wrote:
Seriously, this is some extreme riding conditions. In my 20's I would ride down in to the 20 degree range. In my 30's I'd ride into the 30's. In my 40's...well...you do the math...I'm in my 50's now. No way I'd ever think of riding into this range. |
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Title: Re: Cold Temp No Crank - But Not Battery Post by Kris01 on 03/18/15 at 17:37:24 140710110E0305070C53620 wrote:
That's what I was wondering. |
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Title: Re: Cold Temp No Crank - But Not Battery Post by cwtokenman on 03/18/15 at 21:21:53 There have been some excellent suggestions/reasons for my issue, and I have printed them out to keep on record. Again, I thank each of you for taking the time to reply. The only problem now is that I suspect I will have to wait until next winter for it to get cold enough for the problem to recur. If it does, I think the first thing will be as suggested, see if the starter is getting power. That will tell me which direction to proceed. I also did not know about pushing the bike backwards to jog positions of things, so I will definitely keep that in mind also. Being a mechanical engineer, verslagen1's potential cause of the dissimilar metal contraction rates possibly causing a bind is along the lines of what I suspect, but not sure what to do if that is the cause (some other riders frequently just leave their bikes running during relatively short stops). Serowbot & Gary - My only heated apparel is a pair of gloves, as my hands are all that ever got cold. Usually I don't turn them on unless it is below freezing. The Hippo Hands are great for keeping the cold wind from having much effect. As far as age, I am a bit north of 60, and have been riding year 'round since I got my first street bike 42 years ago. |
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Title: Re: Cold Temp No Crank - But Not Battery Post by Serowbot on 03/18/15 at 21:32:05 You,... are made of entirely different material than I am... ;D ;D ;D ... ... and I hope I never meet you in person,... or the entire world might implode... :-?... Ride on... 8-)... |
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Title: Re: Cold Temp No Crank - But Not Battery Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/19/15 at 08:27:35 Sir, that is impressive. [lowers head and bows down] |
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Title: Re: Cold Temp No Crank - But Not Battery Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/19/15 at 08:41:51 Dude, it's not mechanical OR electrical.. it's psychological.. Your bike is just scared.. unlike YOU it has enough sense to know it's just TOO COLD to even be outside, much less creating a vortex of wind chill ... |
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Title: Re: Cold Temp No Crank - But Not Battery Post by Art Webb on 03/19/15 at 12:17:52 I used ti ride year round, but I don't have the gear for it anymore Nor the stones ;D |
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Title: Re: Cold Temp No Crank - But Not Battery Post by Kris01 on 03/19/15 at 18:21:20 I will ride when it's down in the teens. The only part of me that gets cold, like cwtokenman said, is my hands. I don't really have the proper gloves for cold weather riding. The joy of riding is so intense it keeps me warm! |
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Title: Re: Cold Temp No Crank - But Not Battery Post by Dave on 03/20/15 at 04:38:48 One other issue might be.....the Suzuki Savage only has about 100 watts of generating power for the lights, ignition, and battery charging. Since you only ride 12 miles, and may be doing that with the heated gloves on when really cold...you might be running the battery down a bit. Also batteries lose a lot of capacity when really cold. However...you did say that jumping the bike from a car still did not allow the starter to work, and that would indicate the problem was not battery related. Next time you need to jump it and it just clicks, you can turn the bike on, and then run the jumper cable directly to the positive terminal on the starter and see if it starts. I needed to jump my bike from a car once, and you cannot get to the tiny battery terminals easily....so I turned the key on, attached the jumper cable to the positive terminal of the starter and the negative cable to the engine case where the negative terminal attaches, and I held them in place. I then I had the other fellow attach the cables to his car battery to run the starter.....and I had him pull the cable off his battery as soon as he heard the engine start. Do you have any friends that work at a frozen food plant and will let you park the winter/beater bike in their freezer for some cold weather testing? I worked at a distributor for frozen food when I was in high school loading trucks in the morning before I went to school, and the freezers were at -5!!!!!!! |
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