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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Fork Work /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1423687363 Message started by pgambr on 02/11/15 at 12:42:43 |
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Title: Fork Work Post by pgambr on 02/11/15 at 12:42:43 Gents: I need to replace the seals on my forks and have a couple questions. Do I need to replace anything else other than the seals? I read the thread were someone mentioned it was good to have some of the extra washers and so forth. Also, I would like to have the forks a lot stiffer. Can someone recommend a good oil to stiffen them up a bit. I suppose the amount of oil in the clymer's is correct as well. Thanks for your assistance. [smiley=thumbup.gif] Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Fork Work Post by Dave on 02/11/15 at 12:58:36 The best place to start is the Tech Section Index. Go to the Front Suspension section to find the fork information: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1181745927 When you say......you want to stiffen up the front end...you need to be a bit more specific. Is there too much sag when you sit on the bike? - That can be fixed with more pre-load or stronger springs. Do the forks bottom too easily? - More pre-load, stiffer springs, more than the recommended amount of oil. Is both the compression and rebound too soft? - Thicker oil. |
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Title: Re: Fork Work Post by pgambr on 02/11/15 at 13:13:16 Dave: The one fork seal is starting to leak pretty bad so I need to fix those. Generally speaking, I would prefer to have a stiffer front end. They bottom out more than I would like; although, that has probably more to do with the condition on the roads. I don't want to rebuild everything, but it does need some attention so I thought it would be a good opportunity to message it bit. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Fork Work Post by Dave on 02/11/15 at 13:38:52 You need to remind me what you have done to your bike....is it stock, windshield, bobber, cafe, touring cruiser...how big you are. I can't remember? |
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Title: Re: Fork Work Post by Gary_in_NJ on 02/11/15 at 13:47:19 The stock spring is progressively wound. In order to achieve the correct amount of preload I would suggest that you set the total sag at 35mm. If you are blowing through that value you will need to add washers between the fork cap and the spacer. This should help improve the first 1/3 of fork travel. Adding fork oil only effects the last 1/3 of travel. The stock oil height is 75mm from the top of the tube (measured with the spring out, tube at the bottom of the stroke). This is a very high value, you can try to add an additional ounce for a total of 16 oz. Adding thicker oil (the stock is 15w) effects rebound only and is not a way of stiffening the suspension. Forks with progressive springs are difficult to properly tune, but sometimes small changes can get you over the line between to soft/harsh and acceptable. |
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Title: Re: Fork Work Post by pgambr on 02/11/15 at 13:54:34 Here's the most recent pic; mostly stock, sort of. I'm 180 lbs. I have a big windshield on it for now; although, I'm not sure if I'm going to keep it on. It has Intruder rear suspension, Tkat, and a dry bag on the back seat. Thanks. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Fork Work Post by pgambr on 02/12/15 at 03:50:45 Being an old bike I suppose these will go bad eventually. Considering I added the 12.25 rear shocks, would the angle change in the front end contribute to the failure as well? Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Fork Work Post by Dave on 02/12/15 at 03:59:23 The seals are a wear item of sorts....I had one go bad on my 6 month old trials bike for no apparent reason. You might also just have a piece of grit in the seal, you can cut a thin credit card or piece of plastic into a small flat hook, and pull it around the seal and see if it will remove the grit....sometimes it works just fine. http://sealmate.net/ Taller shocks, your weight and the windshield may put a bit more load on the front end and make the fork springs a bit less able to hold the front end up - but it would not make too much difference in the operation of the seal. To test the "sag" as Gary_in_NJ has recommended - but a small nylon tie around a fork tube and slide it down until it touches the seal, then sit on the bike being careful not to pull on the front brake or move around in a way that would compress the forks more than just sitting on the bike does...you may have to have someone help you hold the bike upright as both feet should be on the pegs. Then carefully get off the bike so as not to compress the forks, and pull the forks up all the way...and measure the distance between the nylon tie and the fork seal. That distance is the sag...and it should be near the distance that Gary suggested. If the sag is bigger....you need to make longer spacers for the fork springs or add some washers to put more pre-load on the springs. |
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Title: Re: Fork Work Post by pgambr on 02/12/15 at 04:40:10 I'll give that seale mate a try sometime today. I'm not optimistic; although, I'll give it a go. What kind of oil should I get assuming I will need replace the seals? I wouldn't mind adding washers just to firm it up as well. Is this the correct part #? http://www.partsfish.com/oemparts/a/suz/506b36c1f870022ba8af9e61/front-damper WASHER 51158-14100 Thanks, |
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Title: Re: Fork Work Post by Dave on 02/12/15 at 05:14:24 I am not sure you want to buy washers.....it sort of depends how much additional pre-load you need. Buying factory washers to gain an additional 1/4" or so might get a bit expensive - it might be better to make a pair of longer spacers (part number 21). |
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Title: Re: Fork Work Post by Gary_in_NJ on 02/12/15 at 06:31:51 The ID of the fork tube is 33mm and the OEM spacer has an OD of 31.8mm (1.25"). Any washer with an OD of 1.25" will work fine. If you need to add more then 3 or 4 washers...it's probably best to make a new spacer. PVC piping with an OD of 1.25" would work just fine. Any brand 15w fork oil will work fine as will Dextron ATF. If you are able to resolve the leaking fork by simply removing debris, you won't have to remove the forks from the triple clamps to set the sag or adjust the oil level. If you find that the seals need to be replaced the forks will have to be removed. This is a good opportunity to clean out the old fork oil. You'd be amazed at how dirty it gets. Make one change at a time. Don't set the sag and add fork oil because if you don't like the result, you won't know which change to reverse. You may find that simply getting the sag correct solves all of your ride/handling issues. If however you are still blowing through the last 1/3 of stroke, then you can start to experiment with the fork oil level. As I mentioned, the LS650 oil is already very high, so just a little additional oil may make a big difference. Keep notes on what you do. This way if the forks need to be serviced in the future, you'll know exactly how much oil to fill the forks. The OEM oil is 441cc's (14.91 oz) resulting in a height of 75mm. For reference, every well sorted fork I've every worked on has had an oil height of 120 to 130mm. Suzuki has really overfilled the LS650 forks in an effort to hide the extremely poor damping and performance of the chosen progressive rate springs. |
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Title: Re: Fork Work Post by pgambr on 02/12/15 at 09:12:30 Dave & Gary: Thanks for your assistance. I'll get everything in line soon enough. I did sweep out a lot more debris from under and around that seal that I would have expected. Thanks again [smiley=thumbup.gif]. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Fork Work Post by verslagen1 on 02/12/15 at 09:27:38 53595D575C555158060004340 wrote:
Which explains the tendency to blow out the seals when you do wheelies. Quote:
You already have up to 1/2" of preload. Adding more could get real interesting. |
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Title: Re: Fork Work Post by Gary_in_NJ on 02/12/15 at 09:56:59 514255544B4640424916270 wrote:
Preloading a progressive-rate spring is an crap shoot. It's the initial stroke of the progressive spring that allows for a compliant ride. Unlike a straight-rate spring, preloading a progressive makes for a harsher riding bike and does little (not nothing, but little) to gain control on the suspension. But without knowing if the suspension is properly setup, it is impossible to identify the correct replacement spring. So once the OP has confirmed that the sag is correct, he can then make an informed decision about his suspension. At 180 pounds on a well optioned bike, my intuition tells me that he needs a different set of springs. |
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Title: Re: Fork Work Post by pgambr on 03/16/15 at 16:39:09 Ok, I just about got the forks torn apart. I made the tool to that extends to the bottom of the fork with the 24mm head. I'm waiting for the JB weld to dry before I can split them apart. I got some spacers to stiffen up the shocks; although, I'm not sure where to put them when I go to reassemble everything. Can someone offer some insight? Thanks. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Fork Work Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/17/15 at 06:32:47 4A5D5B5758483A0 wrote:
Anywhere really. You're just further compressing the spring with the washers. It makes most sense to place them at the top just under the cap. This way they will be easy to retrieve if you add too many. |
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Title: Re: Fork Work Post by pgambr on 03/17/15 at 08:41:35 Gary: Thanks for the input! One other question though. I am having difficulty getting the nut on top of the dampener rod to come loose. Should that be on their as tight as I think it is. Also, I don't have a vice either. I'm holding with one hand and using a ratchet with the other. Thanks again. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Fork Work Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/17/15 at 09:23:26 That can be tight. It's only torqued to 18-26 ft-lbs but it seems much tighter due to how awkward it is to loosen it. Yes, put the slider (the lower) in a vice. For the left fork you can clamp the caliper mounts in the vice. For the right you'll want to protect the tube with some shop rags. For some reason Suzuki didn't leave room for 3/4" or 1/2" drive 8mm hex key, so you cant use an impact driver. To gain enough leverage on the hex key, use the box end of a large wrench to "extend" the hex key - this will increase your leverage exponentially. These tricks should get you loosened up. BTW, don't loose the copper washer on the hex bolt. If one isn't on the bolt when you remove it, then it's stuck to the fork. Retrieve it before it decides to take a run across your shop floor, under something that you can't easily move. |
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Title: Re: Fork Work Post by pgambr on 03/17/15 at 09:34:46 Thanks again Gary, I appreciate the help. [smiley=thumbup.gif] Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Fork Work Post by pgambr on 03/20/15 at 14:45:41 Gents: I have the dampener rod out and I'm trying to get the slider tuber from the bottom portion of the fork. Is this threaded or should it just pull out with some persuasion. The Clymer said may have to add heat or hot water, I don't quite get that. If possible, please offer some insight, thanks. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Fork Work Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/20/15 at 15:05:55 If your doing the fork seals, remove the wiper and than the c-clip and it should pull apart easily. |
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Title: Re: Fork Work Post by pgambr on 03/20/15 at 15:54:08 Yeah, I'm replacing the fork seals. I don't know what a wiper is and I think I removed the c clips. Are those the things that look like a stretched out paper clip? I still can't get them to budge? Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Fork Work Post by Gary in NJ on 03/21/15 at 05:23:20 If the c-clip is removed and you have the damping rod and top-out spring removed...then just yank it apart. It is an interference fit, so there should be resistance. A quick motion will make it easier. It's also easier to do with the slider in a vice. |
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Title: Re: Fork Work Post by Gary in NJ on 03/21/15 at 05:52:13 ...and while I'm think of this... fork seals fail for a reason. Sometimes some dirt dirt gets in between the tube and the seal. Sometimes there was too much compression that leads to a failure. Another reason is that there is an imperfection on the fork tube like a scratch or pitting. Inspect the fork tube well to ensure that the tube doesn't require some rework before assembly. You really don't want to do this job twice. Before putting the seal in place, lube the fork tube with WD-40. It will make it much easier to slide the seal down the tube. |
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Title: Re: Fork Work Post by pgambr on 03/21/15 at 14:38:42 Thanks for the help Gary! [smiley=thumbsup.gif] |
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Title: Re: Fork Work Post by pgambr on 03/23/15 at 17:04:30 Gents: I got it back together and I think it is going to work out pretty well. Thanks for the insight, it made it go a lot smoother. [smiley=thumbsup.gif] Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Fork Work Post by Gary in NJ on 03/23/15 at 17:20:14 Let us know if the changes gave you the desired effect. If not, I have ideas. |
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Title: Re: Fork Work Post by pgambr on 03/30/15 at 15:23:25 Ok gents, the new fork seals seam to be working just fine. I do have one other question though. I put dry star fork boots on and one of them fits significantly tighter than the other. When I hit a bump the boot will not come down. I'm pretty sure one of the boots just has a smaller diameter as opposed to the other. I would like to keep as much crap out of the seal as I can. Does anyone have any ideas? Is their an oil I can use that won't attract to much dirt? Should I cut the boot and use a zip tie to hold it in place? Thanks. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Fork Work Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/30/15 at 17:00:00 A zip tie would work great. |
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