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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> New member with an interesting build! /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1420496320 Message started by RobSutt on 01/05/15 at 14:18:40 |
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Title: New member with an interesting build! Post by RobSutt on 01/05/15 at 14:18:40 I just bought a dune buggy and what pleasently suprised when I realized the engine someone put in it was non other than the thumper itself. Was going to replace it but now that I know what it is I'm excited to rebuild it. Or atleast partially rebuild it. It's currently running but I have to rebuild the carb, fix several oil leaks, and not sure what else. Have been reading up on the forums and located some carb parts, gasket set, etc. I'd like to replace the current piston with a high compression one (no bore I hope needed) and possibly a simple CAM swap. I'd like to get it into the 40s in HP and Torque. It's a 1997 from what I can tell from the stamp (thanks for forum posts). I've book marked several of the topics like petcock, etc. Any advice on rebuild and piston/cam combo? Not looking ata spending a lot of money. Mostly a project to teach my kid how to work on this stuff. When I get a chance I'll post a pic. It's cool looking sitting in the back of the buggy. |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by Dave on 01/05/15 at 14:41:43 Wiseco piston is the only high compression option.....and a bore is required as the smallest piston available is 95mm. Our stock bore is 94mm. If you want to hop it up....it does cost a bit of money. Look here for hop up information. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1338581006 |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by RobSutt on 01/05/15 at 22:04:05 Thanks Dave great link. One thing that confuses me a bit on the big bore is why not just buy the piston and I take it to a local machine shop for bore? That's how I do my Chevy small blocks. Is there something special I'm missing that requires this "kit"? |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by Dave on 01/06/15 at 03:33:15 Lancer is a pioneer in the performance modifications to the LS650 engine, and the link I provided to his thread in this forum makes it possible for you to get the parts that can just be bolted on. If you want to shop around and find this stuff yourself - you can certainly do that. You can buy the piston and take it to a local shop.....just be sure they can accurately do the work. There have been a few failures posted on this forum when the piston/cylinder clearance was not done correctly. Be sure that the folks you take your cylinder to know what they are doing. I don't know how similar it is to bore an air cooled motorcycle cylinder vs. a water cooled V-8. Lancer uses Boretech, and the cylinders have a Silicone Carbide coating that makes the bore far more durable. Boretech is a company that is known for quality work, and they do this work on motorcycle cylinders everyday. Boretech is a one man shop, and he rides and races motorcycles.....you will not find a better place to get the work done. The Boretech Land Speed Honda 350. |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/06/15 at 06:26:52 No better advertising for a speed shop than a speed record. |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by pgambr on 01/06/15 at 07:40:03 What's he got in that picture, nitrous-oxide? |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by Dave on 01/06/15 at 08:09:55 6374727E7161130 wrote:
No Nitrous....it is a mechanical fuel injected, alcohol burning, Honda 350. |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by Serowbot on 01/06/15 at 09:15:09 We want pics... :-?... |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by Dave on 01/06/15 at 11:06:39 Yep...we do want pics of a Savage engine buggy. I have occasionally thought the engine might do well for other uses. The engine and head don't have an abundance of cooling fins however - so use in something that restricts airflow to the engine (or low traveling speeds) might not be all that friendly to the engine. That might even explain why you may be having some oil seepage issues.......the gaskets and seals may have been cooked. |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by verslagen1 on 01/06/15 at 13:14:38 You can get a lot out of a performance carb and muf upgrade only. I can go uphill at 85 with a stock carb, K&N drop in filter and either a supertrapp, sporty or drilled out stock muff. But, put on an Edelbrock and I'm doing 95... and that wasn't maxed out. |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by pgambr on 01/06/15 at 13:36:20 7E45485F4E42595F444C415E2D0 wrote:
No Nitrous....it is a mechanical fuel injected, alcohol burning, Honda 350.[/quote] Ok thanks. |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by RobSutt on 01/06/15 at 13:44:30 Here's some pics. Also I have what I think is the original carb for it but they installed a Keihin PWK 36E4 on it. I sent Keihin a note asking what that application that carb was made for. The main issue with it right now is that starting at about 3500 RPM it starts are backfire so much it sounds like a 2 stroke. Which is what's making me wonder about this carb they put on it. It also has oil leaks but those are easy to fix. http://https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Ne8T70-M9xo/VKxPM9fR00I/AAAAAAAAAlE/cxIlpli2wm4/w1153-h865-no/IMG_0547.JPG Butt end view. http://https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-s8kdZaoxeOg/VKxPKrnq3lI/AAAAAAAAAks/lZYzocqbTK8/w649-h865-no/IMG_0544.JPG Here you can see the air filter and exhaust clearly. http://https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-oMxyhwzMoLU/VKxPLVXB2OI/AAAAAAAAAk4/Sk6SSgiSFzY/w649-h865-no/IMG_0545.JPG Here's the carb they put on it... http://https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-RbxSwvLV_3M/VKxPKGaNIDI/AAAAAAAAAko/0MPOkgFFlRA/w649-h865-no/IMG_0543.JPG Here's the carb that believe belongs on it that was just sitting on the buggy when we bought it. http://https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-446BwnbleVA/VKxXJ3-b-cI/AAAAAAAAAls/MEdv10ETbcg/w1153-h865-no/IMG_0531.JPG |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by verslagen1 on 01/06/15 at 14:24:13 If it's cutting out at 3500, then it's either a problem of the main jet too small or you have the wrong needle. You might try the stock carb for sh!ts and giggles. |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by Dave on 01/06/15 at 15:30:25 Before you start hopping that thing up with a high compression piston and cam - you might want to see what happens when you get it running. You might find out that there is plenty of power in the stock engine to get you into trouble! :o |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by RobSutt on 01/06/15 at 15:50:27 102B2631202C37312A222F30430 wrote:
Very true Dave. Heh. I plan to try and get it solid as is first. Thinking that to do that I need to rebuild original carb and try it and fix the oil leaks on the side covers. BTW if I do a compression test what should be "normal range"? |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by HondaLavis on 01/06/15 at 16:34:42 Clymer says 145-203 PSI as standard, with a service limit of 116 PSI. Nice looking buggy! Try to figure out what kind of carb you have, and see if you can't compare it to the round slide performance carb that Lancer sells. He is very wise about tuning; perhaps he can point you in the right direction to get that thing going. Is it possible that a previous owner set it up to limit at 3500 for a reason? Maybe limiting speed? I'd imagine 50-60 mph in a dune buggy is awfully fast! Hope you have good brakes!! |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by paulmarshall on 01/06/15 at 21:37:09 Nice buggy but that motor must run super hot mounted back there without air flow. |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by RobSutt on 01/06/15 at 22:22:00 Considering it was also probably running VERY lean due to the backfiring I am hoping it is not hosed on the inside from prolonged over heating. Going to do compression tests this weekend and pull the side covers. They leak oil already. If I get it running solid I am likely going to have to mount an electric fan or something back there to help keep it cool. Especially considering most of its time is spent in the desert! HOT! |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by Boofer on 01/06/15 at 22:45:25 Rob, just to throw you another curve: a lot of us run Rotella 15w40. I run regular and some run synthetic. Our carb is a BB40S or something close. Can't remember exactly. :) |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by Dave on 01/07/15 at 04:16:54 I imagine the original engine for this buggy had an engine driven cooling fan.....and you may need one as well, and you may need to add some duct work to route the air around the cylinder. Maybe a scoop to collect air and direct it over the cylinder would be adequate? When you get it running, you might consider adding a temperature gauge. I have one on my bike and the sender is supposed to go under the spark plug - but that is a pain so I put the sender under a cylinder head nut. My bike will get close to 300 degrees on a hot day while riding slowly on gravel roads....on the highway it never gets over 280. You also should be aware that if you do add an electric fan, the Savage only has about 100 watts of generating power. This is only 8 amps.....so pick a fan that draw well below that so you have some power left over for charging the battery. You might consider having the fan controlled by a switch - so you can turn it on only when it is needed. Another option would be to run the fan off the drive train...and/or add an oil cooler if the engine temperatures run high. Here is one option for a temperature gauge. My only issue with most of these gauges, is the internal battery is not replaceable. They claim battery life if 5 years.....but it sure would be nice if you could just spend $ 5 to replace the battery when needed, instead of throwing away a $ 42 gauge that probably cost about $ 60 with shipping. http://www.trailtech.net/digital-gauges/tto/722-es2 |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by RobSutt on 01/07/15 at 12:14:59 72494453424E555348404D52210 wrote:
I've got a gauge but it's not hooked up to anything near the cylinder or head so i need to move it. Ppl amaze me sometimes. Do you have a recommended pickup/sensor to use? I like the head bolt idea a lot more than the plug. |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by Dave on 01/07/15 at 12:34:31 The temperature sensor I used came with the gauge.....I don't know if the sensors are interchangeable between brands. |
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Title: I guess I should start a build thread? Post by RobSutt on 01/08/15 at 21:09:28 As some have seen I have a thumper engine in a dune buggy. I thought I may be able to fix some oil some leaks and get the carb right but..... Tonight I ran the all important compression test and I maxed out at 100psi. If I understand correctly that's way below normal and 16 below service limit. Am I right? If so here starts my sort of special buggy thumper rebuild thread. |
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Title: Re: I guess I should start a build thread? Post by thumperclone on 01/08/15 at 21:50:06 standard 142-200 psi limit 114 psi ssm |
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Title: Re: I guess I should start a build thread? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/08/15 at 21:58:13 Well,has it been running? Or are the rings dry from just sitting? I would get it running before I decided anything. The simplest,quickest,don't matter if it's leaking, or even if it can be driven, just make the motor run..then check it out.. |
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Title: Re: I guess I should start a build thread? Post by RobSutt on 01/08/15 at 22:45:55 77686E6974734272427A68642F1D0 wrote:
I wish. It runs now. Not well mind you. Oil leaking in at least 3 seals too. It really has the...."I stuck a big bad air cooled engine behind the seat of a buggy and ran the crap out of it in the desert for a couple years with a temp gauge not connected to something that matters". Is that a thing? Lol |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by Dave on 01/09/15 at 04:25:00 It would be best is you just keep this thread intact....we could then follow the ordeal from start to finish. It is hard for members to follow what is going in when you break the event up into multiple threads. If you do add some motor oil to the cylinder and the compression rises, it is an indication that the rings are not sealing well. Then, it sounds like you need to take it apart and see what is causing the low compression. When you take the engine apart you need to check the condition of the cam, rockers and cylinder head - this engine has very low oil pressure if the idle was set below 1,000 rpm, and often the bearing surfaces on the cam are ruined as a result. Also the cam lobes and rockers can be damaged if the oil had too low of a ZDDP level. Then obviously check the piston and cylinder condition. Also you should check the Cam Chain Tensioner extension and if it is getting close to 20mm extension - then you need to obtain a Verslagen modified tensioner or replace the cam chain. Then button things up with new gaskets and seals. If the piston/cylinder is in poor shape....I am not sure I would recommend a high compression Wiseco, as the engine most likely has cooling problems already. It might be better to find a good used piston and cylinder (or if the cylinder is good just a piston). The silicone carbide treatment of the cylinder might also be a good investment to help make the piston/cylinder more durable. It is my belief you should spend as little as possible to get this engine healthy again, then spend a summer driving it and determine if the engine can be used in this application reliably. And finally....maybe this is not the correct engine for this use. As much as we love this engine it may not be the ideal engine for use in the back of a buggy that is going to be used in the desert. Adding air ducting, a cooling fan, or an oil cooler may help - but the oil flow in this engine is not very high and additional cooling provided by an oil cooler may be minimal (but any increase will help). Maybe you need to find a good engine that is water cooled like a Honda 450 CRF, a Suzuki DR400, or some similar engine. |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/09/15 at 06:05:59 Okay,you've run it, that's the good news... Now, that compression reading is worth looking at. And, that's not really good news. Now, cool as these engines are, you've Seen what the installation,,,application,,,in this case has done. Do you Really Know how long it held up, in terms of hours running in the sand? Do you really believe that That buggy PLUS a human IN the Sand is a job for A 650 thumper? I agree with you needing a fan, but they won't run on their own, and the charging system is not a real powerhouse, so,you've got some decisions to make,, How is your buggy geared? What size are the tires? What does the whole buggy weigh? What will it be carrying? How fast do you WANT it to be How Quick do you want it to be? I can see this engine on a really fun 4 wheeled something.. seriously mean Go Kart, or, a 4 wheeler for a dirt track, but sand? I've ridden 4 wheelers in sand, and the same ones on dirt. The speeds are very different,because the HP requirements for uphill in sand is a lot different than uphill in dirt. It's not hard to see, a short walk in sand,,,,well, tires that sit on top Matter, but it is still a big difference between sand and dirt. Not to mention the air filter requirements for sand, I'll be watching this thread. How you proceed,what you decide, I'm interested. Glad you are here. And, I will be over here,cheering you on, hoping to see you get out on the sand,with whatever engine you decide on.. |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by RobSutt on 01/09/15 at 09:42:14 Dave, a Justin... Thanks and totally agree. I'm going to pull it and tear parts down to see what's there. Generally it actually won't be in sand much. Most trails out here ppl ride are packed earth. I'm not a "dune" guy per say. May give it a shot a few times. True dune riding like at Glamis is crazy nuts dangerous these days. To many drunks without spotters. This is more for family fun. |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by Dave on 01/09/15 at 10:13:58 Looking at the suspension, tires and wheelbase - I believe you are going to find that the Savage engine will have plenty enough power to propel you to the limits of the chassis. And if you can build some ducting (and/or a small fan) to move air across the engine it would sure help. On my motorcycle there are only 2 scenarios that would get the cylinder head temp up to 300 degrees....and both happened on 90-95 degree days. (The 300 degree temperature most likely is not overheated......it is just the highest I ever saw on the bike). 1) When I had the stock gearing, sustained interstate speeds over 70 mph would get the temperature to climb. At this speed the engine was running at a sustained 4,000 rpm. 2) On one trip to the Tail of the Dragon we were slowly climbing a steep uphill gravel road. The road was really bumpy and I was just above idle in 1st gear, and there was little airflow at this low speed. You are never apt to encounter the sustained 4,000 rpm condition on the buggy. You are more apt to encounter trails that require you to do slow speed running for extended periods....and adding some cooling flow for these situations would certainly be advisable. Having a temperature gauge would certainly be a benefit when you get it running.....as it will help you to determine what you need to do to make the engine survive. |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by RobSutt on 01/09/15 at 16:30:43 Yea while I'm keeping an eye out for other ATV engines I think I will rebuild this one anyway or atleast parts of it as you suggest... maybe just new rings, etc. Won't know till I get it apart. New question...what is this cable/mechanism on the head? It not connected to anything currently. http://https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-MsLNZiGNtgk/VLBxrKsAvMI/AAAAAAAAAng/c_3QZh1Ms-k/w932-h733-no/Head_level.JPG |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by verslagen1 on 01/09/15 at 19:33:34 Decompression lever. on a savage it's hooked to a solenoid controlled by a starter timer. If it ever stalls when you try to start, you either got to roll it past TDC then push the button or pull that lever till it starts spinning then let go. What's the serial number on the engine? |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by RobSutt on 01/09/15 at 20:15:25 405344455A5751535807360 wrote:
P401-143496 From what I can tell its a 1997 CA bike motor. |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by verslagen1 on 01/09/15 at 20:24:33 good, you got the starter torque limiter so you won't bust the case or sprocket. |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by verslagen1 on 01/09/15 at 20:26:52 I'd pull the header away from the case if you could so it'll have a little more cooling. |
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Title: Re: New member with an interesting build! Post by RobSutt on 01/09/15 at 21:34:46 465542435C5157555E01300 wrote:
Yea it's lieterally touching the case. Not good. |
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