SuzukiSavage.com - Print Page

SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl
General Category >> The Cafe >> Brake question
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1417217992

Message started by Kris01 on 11/28/14 at 15:39:52

Title: Brake question
Post by Kris01 on 11/28/14 at 15:39:52

Not necessarily a Savage/S40 question...just something I was wondering in general.

If I can lock up the front brake with the stock caliper and rotor then what would be advantageous about a dual disc setup or larger rotor and caliper? It seems to me that brake efficiency is pretty dependent on tire traction. A larger brake setup with more clamping force would just lock up the wheel faster.

Any thoughts?

Title: Re: Brake question
Post by Face on 11/28/14 at 21:19:31

It's all about "feel" and temperature.

Larger rotors with stronger calipers, obviously, require less input torque from the rider for the same reduction in speed as a small rotor/weak caliper setup. This means rather than gripping tight with your whole fist, you can feather the brake with just a couple fingers. You can feel what the brakes are doing this way because your hands aren't stressed and fatigued, they're relaxed and attentive to variations in grip from the front tire/brake interaction. It also creates a more progressive application of force.

Also, larger/dual rotors have A LOT more surface area to absorb and dissipate heat meaning less "fade."

All of this is more important on a track with an experienced rider who needs to feel everything and who is really abusing the brakes creating tons of heat. The casual person on the street probably has no real need for that kind of race setup.

But come on............Big brakes are cool. (no really, I mean it) :P

Title: Re: Brake question
Post by Kris01 on 11/29/14 at 08:31:13

Haha, yeah, big brakes with drilled rotors on a dual setup would be cool! ;D

I guess for the average street bike it wouldn't really help braking performance.

Title: Re: Brake question
Post by Oldfeller on 11/29/14 at 09:57:14

Actually, for your average rider having super brakes on the front makes for accidents when too much front braking is applied during a panic stop situation.

The easier it can skid the front wheel, the easier it is for this to happen.

I front wheel skidded the Virago once during a traffic stack up sudden stop -- it didn't help me steer around the traffic emergency any at all when it happened because a skidding wheel does not steer anything (I just suddenly had my own personal very urgent EXTRA emergency to deal with).

Most bike makers size the front brake arrangement so it just barely can't skid the front wheel -- they do this on purpose.

Title: Re: Brake question
Post by ToesNose on 11/29/14 at 13:59:06

I typically ride solo and the brakes have proven to be more then ample for me and my needs for sure, now if you are on the heavier side or ride two up regularly then I could see the benefit of a beefier front brake on the LS650. ::)

Title: Re: Brake question
Post by gizzo on 11/29/14 at 14:05:43

My 2 cents: I don't think you need to worry so much about the front locking on a Savage unless on dirt or ice: Then it could happen on any bike...
My 2 c only, and YMMV etc.

Title: Re: Brake question
Post by MnSpring on 11/29/14 at 15:54:54

Pulling out of my drive, onto the Tar Co Road, as soon as I got straight,
their was a car, coming RIGHT AT ME !
(He didn’t know it was a ‘curve’)
(My Drive enters on a curve, apparently this driver was, drunk, sleeping, or texting, and did not know the road)

My Stock Brakes, Locked up both front and back, I ’slid’ to the shoulder, and was ready to give it gas, and go into the ditch, when he, ’swerved’,.

I was grateful I didn’t have to hit the steep ditch, (Which the XT-225 would have worked better than the S-40)

Anyway, Stock Brakes, have NO Problem. In my experience.

Title: Re: Brake question
Post by Art Webb on 11/30/14 at 22:07:51

I can lock the front or rear brake on my S40 pretty much any time I want to
not saying it's easy, but I can do it

Title: Re: Brake question
Post by Dave on 12/01/14 at 03:36:22

The dual brake systems are mostly needed on sport bikes that weigh 400 pounds, can go 140+ miles and hour, and are potential "track" bikes. The need for dual brakes is not only for stopping power - but also to make the system capable of dissipating a whole lot of heat from repeated use while lapping the track. Dual front brakes are also needed on large street bikes.....it takes a lot of brake to stop a 800 - 1,000 pound touring bike and a couple of folks in the saddle.

The Savage single brake takes a strong grip to operate - but it is fully capable of doing the braking the bike requires. A few times we have put it to the test when riding down at the Dragon. Oldfeller reported making some interesting colors on his rotor one year he was chasing BigZuke around......I have worked mine pretty hard and even on the 11 miles of the Tail of the Dragon or 30 miles of Highway 32 I have never overheated the front brake. (I have noticed that Oldfeller, MMRanch, BigZuke and other really good riders don't seem to use their brakes as often as I do.......they just go around the corner quickly!).

It is not easy to get dual brakes on the Savage, as the front hub only has a mounting surface on one side, and the right fork leg doesn't have a mount for caliper. Dual front rotors have been put on the Savage by changing the front forks and using the forks, wheel and brake assembly from another bike.

The stock front brake while being adequate.....can be improved by using the kit that ShawnRYCA has made. I bought one of his kits and it looks great - but I have waited to install it until this winter as I didn't have time to install during riding season. I have modified my forks and used a different triple tree that narrowed the front end.....so I have some extra work to do to make the kit fit my bike! Shawn's kit is a bolt on for the stock bike.
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1391549028

Title: Re: Brake question
Post by engineer on 12/01/14 at 04:23:02

My larger bike has Brembo four piston brake calipers on it and I have locked up the front twice now but was lucky enough that I didn't have to do any steering. I've got to agree with the others that the Savage brakes are just fine the way they are. But they would look a little more stylish if they had the scalloped edge and were drilled.

Title: Re: Brake question
Post by Dave on 12/01/14 at 05:51:55

The brake feel on the Savage and my Honda ST1100 are very similar - you gotta squeeze hard if you want to lose speed fast. I suppose if you squeezed really hard you could get them to lock up on dry pavement.....but I have never squeezed that hard.

The front brake on the little Ninja 250 is entirely different - you can get all the brake you need with just 2 fingers. You could easily lock the front brake if you applied too much pressure. The brake is easy to modulate and control - you don't just grab a handful of brake - you squeeze gently and stop squeezing when you have achieved the braking you want. You just have to accept that you "could" brake hard enough to lock it up or do a "stoppie"......and you have the ability to hurt yourself if you don't ride under control.

It is kind of like driving an old car with hydraulic brakes - vs. - a modern car with a hydraulic brake booster. Both systems will stop the car and both will lock up the brakes if you need to - but the booster makes the pedal pressure a lot lighter and you need a gentle touch in comparison.

Title: Re: Brake question
Post by gizzo on 12/02/14 at 00:57:19

So, today I did the experiment and I stand corrected: The front can indeed be locked up, at least at walking/ jogging pace. I didn't have the balls to do it at road speed. But, I still don't think it's likely to happen, and never did in a few emergency stops I've had to pull. It's good enough for an old dunger like the Savage but I'd be wanting bigger and more on a faster bike. Like Dave on his little Ninja, I can get more braking with 2 fingers on my Monster than a whole fistful would achieve on the Cabbage.

Title: Re: Brake question
Post by Art Webb on 12/02/14 at 07:01:55

I think that's sort of the point, this bike is aimed sort of toward the beginner rider IMO, and a n00b to riding is more likely to yank the hell out of the brake lever in an 'oh holy crap' situation