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Message started by manny87 on 11/05/14 at 14:08:32

Title: Revving but not accelerating
Post by manny87 on 11/05/14 at 14:08:32
Hi everyone, lately i've been noticing my 87 Savage does not have the response it used to... when in 2nd, 3rd or 4th gear and i give it gas it used to jump forward and just keep accelerating... now when i'm doing about 40 and try to give it more gas it just revs but does not go much faster, just barely. I don't even think i've made her go over 50MPH in a while... she's got 38k miles on her and i suspect the clutch might be getting stuck or something. any ideas on what it might be and what to do about it? I'd appreciate any comments

Title: Re: Revving but not accelerating
Post by verslagen1 on 11/05/14 at 14:21:02
1st, check your clutch adjustment, you should have an 1/8" gap at the lever.  Also check with bars turned to both sides.

2nd, check the throwout lever on the case, pull up on the lever and it should be between the marks on the case.

Title: Re: Revving but not accelerating
Post by manny87 on 11/05/14 at 14:26:26
check your clutch adjustment, you should have an 1/8" gap at the lever.

2nd, check the throwout lever on the case, pull up on the lever and it should be between the marks on the case.[/quote]

Sorry man, 1/8" gap between where and where exactly? and i haven't seen the marks on the case, I'll take a look as soon as i get home...  Thanks

Title: Re: Revving but not accelerating
Post by savskad on 11/05/14 at 14:47:53
Sometimes if your clutch is "starting to go" (getting to the end of its life) it starts slipping under harder acceleration. If there is any slight pull on the clutch, therefore not letting it fully engage, it will wear faster. That's why you need to make sure all the adjustments are right.

This is based off my experience from my last bike. It had a little bit more power than the savage, but right when I'd hit the power band while accelerating it would "let up" and lose acceleration while the RPMs still went up. What it was, was the clutch was worn out and was slipping. That bike had 30,000 miles. Replaced the clutch and clutch springs, tight as could be!

Hope this helps.

Title: Re: Revving but not accelerating
Post by verslagen1 on 11/05/14 at 14:52:24

70627570686267030 wrote:
Sometimes if your clutch is "starting to go"


Most savage clutches don't wear out.
It's usually an adjustment issue (if you catch it in time).
The cable stretches, and the clutch pack does wear, but usually within limits.  
When the lever is no longer within limits, it requires a change in the throwout rod.

Title: Re: Revving but not accelerating
Post by savskad on 11/05/14 at 14:58:33

4B584F4E515C5A58530C3D0 wrote:
Most savage clutches don't wear out.
It's usually an adjustment issue (if you catch it in time).
The cable stretches, and the clutch pack does wear, but usually within limits.  
When the lever is no longer within limits, it requires a change in the throwout rod.


Really? Cool! (Obviously I'm still new to the Savage) Makes me fall that much more in love with the bike.

I used to have a Yamaha Radian 4-banger wannabe sports bike. So clutches were bound to be replaced.

What if a Savage was ridden harder than usual?

Title: Re: Revving but not accelerating
Post by verslagen1 on 11/05/14 at 15:13:54

6E7C6B6E767C791D0 wrote:
What if a Savage was ridden harder than usual?


There's probably a point where clutches do wear out, but if you keep slip to a minimum, it's going to be a long time.

Title: Re: Revving but not accelerating
Post by Spamy on 11/05/14 at 17:36:42
Had you recently changed the oil around the time you noticed this problem?

This clutch design is not very high pressure and slips easily if the disks get the slightest bit contaminated.

Title: Re: Revving but not accelerating
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/05/14 at 18:27:38
Expensive oil? Rotella T, $13.00 a Gallon, not quart.
How many miles?
What oil you using?

Title: Re: Revving but not accelerating
Post by manny87 on 11/06/14 at 05:07:00

1C3F2E22364F0 wrote:
Had you recently changed the oil around the time you noticed this problem?


I changed the oil about ... maybe 1000 miles ago, and it burns a little bit 'cause I've had to top it off a couple of times since then... And I think i used 20W50 ... I know, I guess for starters i should change it to 10W40 and see what's up? Thanks for your help

Title: Re: Revving but not accelerating
Post by manny87 on 11/06/14 at 05:16:26

435C5A5D40477646764E5C501B290 wrote:
Expensive oil? Rotella T, $13.00 a Gallon, not quart.
How many miles?
What oil you using?


38,000 miles
I think it was Castrol 20W50, I can't remember why I got that oil... slim pickings at that store maybe (small town outside Guatemala city)... Should i first switch it to 10W40 and give that a try or just go ahead and look at other stuff? i know the clutch cable is fine... But the problem I think is getting worse... i went up a hill this morning, pretty steep but never EVER a problem in the past ... i had to shift down to make it. And I climbed that same hill not long ago with no problem. It looks like it just got this bad over a couple of weeks. what else should i check? and what am i looking for? Thanks for your help

Title: Re: Revving but not accelerating
Post by youzguyz on 11/06/14 at 07:00:55
You aren't saying what KIND of oil you are using.

You must use an oil that will work with a wet clutch, that doesn't have any "friction modifiers", one that is JASO-MA certified.
Automotive car oil will not work.

While Rotella T6 is not specific for motorcycles with a wet clutch, it meets the  JASO-MA requirements to work for that application.

Title: Re: Revving but not accelerating
Post by manny87 on 11/06/14 at 07:12:15

5E48525D40525E5D270 wrote:
You aren't saying what KIND of oil you are using.

You must use an oil that will work with a wet clutch, that doesn't have any "friction modifiers", one that is JASO-MA certified.
Automotive car oil will not work.

While Rotella T6 is not specific for motorcycles with a wet clutch, it meets the  JASO-MA requirements to work for that application.



Good point, and i don't know what kind of oil it was... So do you suggest first changing the oil because that might be the only issue? or change it after i check whatever else might be wrong in there?

Title: Re: Revving but not accelerating
Post by Spamy on 11/06/14 at 07:55:15
If the oil kind was switched, like any sort of semi synthetic, synthetic or something like that and back to regular oil, then the clutch fiber plates can be slipping.

Ive tried to clean plates several times and have never had good results.  It has always only been fixed by getting new fiber clutch plates for me. Especially on this bike. It may be $50 you have to spend to find out if thats the problem if you cant pinpoint something else.

Actually "Automotive car oil will not work" is not true. Ive used car oils for 30 years on many many bikes and its fine.  You just have to have the right bare bones simple oil, like Rotella, or Chevron conventional.  And then stay with the same stuff for the life of the clutch.

Title: Re: Revving but not accelerating
Post by manny87 on 11/06/14 at 08:07:27

7053424E5A230 wrote:
If the oil kind was switched, like any sort of semi synthetic, synthetic or something like that and back to regular oil, then the clutch fiber plates can be slipping.

Ive tried to clean plates several times and have never had good results.  It has always only been fixed by getting new fiber clutch plates for me. Especially on this bike. It may be $50 you have to spend to find out if thats the problem if you cant pinpoint something else.

Actually "Automotive car oil will not work" is not true. Ive used car oils for 30 years on many many bikes and its fine.  You just have to have the right bare bones simple oil, like Rotella, or Chevron conventional.  And then stay with the same stuff for the life of the clutch.



Thanks, I'll start shopping for clutch discs just in case and see if there's anything else, maybe i'll change the oil for starters... couldn't hurt.  I'll post again with any updates. Thanks again

Title: Re: Revving but not accelerating
Post by Dave on 11/06/14 at 08:08:31

0023323E2A530 wrote:
Actually "Automotive car oil will not work" is not true. Ive used car oils for 30 years on many many bikes and its fine.  You just have to have the right bare bones simple oil, like Rotella, or Chevron conventional. 


If the oil bottle says that it has "Friction Modifiers" or "Fuel Saving"...you don't want to use it.  Also most modern oils have less than half the ZDDP content that is needed to keep the cap and rockers from self destructing.  This lower ZDDP level was not an issue until the EPA started to limit the amount of ZDDP used in cars that had oxygen sensors.

If the plates are contaminated with friction modifiers, it may take several miles and oil changes to get the "slippery stuff" off the clutch plates.  If the clutch is taken apart and the plates washed and lightly sanded to remove the glaze...you may have some luck using the plates again.

Title: Re: Revving but not accelerating
Post by manny87 on 11/06/14 at 08:24:43

08333E2938342F29323A37285B0 wrote:
If the plates are contaminated with friction modifiers, it may take several miles and oil changes to get the "slippery stuff" off the clutch plates.  If the clutch is taken apart and the plates washed and lightly sanded to remove the glaze...you may have some luck using the plates again.


That sounds like it's worth a shot, thank you.

Title: Re: Revving but not accelerating
Post by Oldfeller on 11/07/14 at 02:28:13

I jest love it when newbies start offering other newbies "sage advice" based off of their other bikes (sports bikes and dirtbikes normally) and the brand new newbie runs off to go take the "sage advice" based off that other bike and actively ignores two now three moderators AND all of the tech section to boot and goes off to spend a bunch of money.

Manny, judge whose advice to take by the number and class of the stars by their names -- it saves you trouble in the end.

Also learn how to read the Table of Contents in the Tech Section -- it has a whole chapter thing in there about the clutch, how to adjust it and what oil to feed it (and the rest of your bike).

If your clutch rod is right, your handle adjustment is right and you find you have a contaminated clutch, and you can't get Rotella to heal it over an oil change or two, read in the Clutch section how to clean and roughen your plates and try that before you go pay $70-80 for a new clutch.

If you do insist changing it out, remember Clymers lists the fiber plate thicknesses ass backwards in their little table (known error) and I really do want your old plates that you are going to throw away (I collect them, clean them up and store them -- it is a little hobby of mine).

:)

Title: Re: Revving but not accelerating
Post by manny87 on 11/07/14 at 05:09:35

5A7971737079797067150 wrote:

I jest love it when newbies start offering other newbies "sage advice" based off of their other bikes (sports bikes and dirtbikes normally) and the brand new newbie runs off to go take the "sage advice" based off that other bike and actively ignores two now three moderators AND all of the tech section to boot and goes off to spend a bunch of money.

Manny, judge whose advice to take by the number and class of the stars by their names -- it saves you trouble in the end.

Also learn how to read the Table of Contents in the Tech Section -- it has a whole chapter thing in there about the clutch, how to adjust it and what oil to feed it (and the rest of your bike).

If your clutch rod is right, your handle adjustment is right and you find you have a contaminated clutch, and you can't get Rotella to heal it over an oil change or two, read in the Clutch section how to clean and roughen your plates and try that before you go pay $70-80 for a new clutch.

If you do insist changing it out, remember Clymers lists the fiber plate thicknesses ass backwards in their little table (known error) and I really do want your old plates that you are going to throw away (I collect them, clean them up and store them -- it is a little hobby of mine).

:)



Thanks for the tip, I've simply thanked everyone for their suggestions as I'm sure they were sincerely trying to be helpful. I never posted something like "thank you fellow newbie, i'm gonna run off and do that RIGHT NOW and spend a lot of money"... I also replied to that last comment from Dave (a 5 star moderator) which i thought to make the most sense (no offense to the others). I'll take a look at the tech section too.

Oh, about the plates... I really hope i don't have to replace them, but if I do, I'm gonna start a collection of my own HA!

just kidding... but I live in Guatemala, so getting those plates shipped over to you... I don't know if it would be worth your while. Thanks again.

Title: Re: Revving but not accelerating
Post by Oldfeller on 11/08/14 at 03:37:59

Actually, I got two sets already sent to me by other newbies and I really do have enough of them stored up already.  

If it does serve to get you to think a bit and read the tech section, then the offer did its job.

What Heavy Duty oils for diesel engines do you have available in Guatemala?

Title: Re: Revving but not accelerating
Post by manny87 on 11/08/14 at 08:36:44

44676F6D6E67676E790B0 wrote:


What Heavy Duty oils for diesel engines do you have available in Guatemala?



Gonna go check and take note. I'll share once i have em, thanks

Title: Re: Revving but not accelerating
Post by manny87 on 11/17/14 at 12:35:24

5A7971737079797067150 wrote:



What Heavy Duty oils for diesel engines do you have available in Guatemala?



Haven't had a chance to go out and look but I saw this somewhere

http://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/58169D196EDDCB5E80257AD3003FBDBF/$File/PDS%20CCSA%20Castrol%20CRB%20Viscus%2015W-40%20english.pdf

It's Castrol CRB Viscus 15W40

It was the only one i thought was pretty close and for diesel engines... there were a couple other oils that claimed to be "specifically for motorcycles" but they were SAE 20W50 So i didn't pay much attention and i thought I'd ask first... any thoughts on that Castrol?

Title: Re: Revving but not accelerating
Post by Spamy on 11/17/14 at 15:14:16

00232B292A23232A3D4F0 wrote:

I jest love it when newbies start offering other newbies "sage advice" based off of their other bikes (sports bikes and dirtbikes normally) and the brand new newbie runs off to go take the "sage advice" based off that other bike and actively ignores two now three moderators AND all of the tech section to boot and goes off to spend a bunch of money.
:)



Ouch.  Kinda feels like that was aimed at me.

I guess because I dont post hundreds of posts about my cat and other crap that doesnt pertain to motorcycles my post count isnt high enough to count.

Oh well, I guess Ill keep my tips to myself.  35 years of riding and 30 years of wrenching experience on all bikes from dirt, harleys, cruisers to sports (60's to current) equates to nothing apparently without an old name or alot of posts.

Ill go wimper in some other corner of the internet.

Title: Re: Revving but not accelerating
Post by manny87 on 11/17/14 at 17:09:34

1132232F3B420 wrote:
I guess because I dont post hundreds of posts about my cat and other crap that doesnt pertain to motorcycles my post count isnt high enough to count.

35 years of riding and 30 years of wrenching experience on all bikes from dirt, harleys, cruisers to sports (60's to current) equates to nothing apparently without an old name or alot of posts.


Right? Hey thanks man.

Title: Re: Revving but not accelerating
Post by rickj on 12/04/14 at 15:16:41
I just replaced the cam chain including the verslavy tensioner mod.  Kept the clutch and replaced the 45mm clutch rod with a 46mm clutch rod.  Before the work the clutch would slip on moderately steep hills.  Now it slips in ALL gears on a level surface.  Can't get much past 25mph.

The clutch cable seems to be adjusted OK.  I'll check again to be sure.

I have a new clutch.  Should I replace the old one?

thanks, rickj

Title: Re: Revving but not accelerating
Post by manny87 on 12/04/14 at 15:54:59

667D777F7E717A67140 wrote:
I just replaced the cam chain including the verslavy tensioner mod.  Kept the clutch and replaced the 45mm clutch rod with a 46mm clutch rod.  Before the work the clutch would slip on moderately steep hills.  Now it slips in ALL gears on a level surface.  Can't get much past 25mph.

The clutch cable seems to be adjusted OK.  I'll check again to be sure.

I have a new clutch.  Should I replace the old one?

thanks, rickj




So here's what I did:

At risk of receiving hate for being "newbies" trying to help each other... This is what worked for ME.

Someone suggested using heavy duty diesel engine oil, so i changed the oil and used Castrol CRB Viscus 15W40. I removed the clutch basket, cleaned the plates and discs using gasoline, compressed air and clean rags. I put some oil on both sides of each disc and plate during re-assembly so they wouldn't starve for lube after first crank. I made sure the center nut (32 mm i think) was nice and tight (torque specifications in the tech section) and i also put flat washers under each of the clutch springs... I figured it would add more pressure in case it needed some. I don't know which of these things did the trick but again, that's what worked for me. And it was getting ridiculous, the day before i fixed it, I rode her home and barely made it up a hill in 1st gear, just barely. Now she runs great. Whether I screwed something up that will become noticeable later... only time will tell. Good luck man, let us know how it goes.

If you have a new clutch... meh, might as well replace it, right? unless you can return it if something else makes the old one work.

Title: Re: Revving but not accelerating
Post by MnSpring on 12/04/14 at 16:46:48
If you are looking for a  Clutch, complicate:
Third photo down:
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1416355210

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