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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> What is that switch attached to the carb? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1414759150 Message started by LiPix on 10/31/14 at 05:39:10 |
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Title: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by LiPix on 10/31/14 at 05:39:10 Hello all!, writing from Catalunya, Spain. I bought my new L650 of '00 and 20.000km two weeks ago. Now we are beggining to know each other :). I have some problems with fuel when I go at low throttle, it seems that the petcock doesn't create the needed vacuum and I have some starvation.. sympthoms are gone when I switch to RES or PRI, maybe there's a problem with the ON. Inspecting the carburator, pipes, etc, I found an electrical switch that is turned on when throttle is full opened. I cannot follow the wire without umounting the tank,... somebody could give me an idea of what this switch is? I attach two images: http://lipix.ciutadella.es/wiki/images/Switchcarb1.jpg http://lipix.ciutadella.es/wiki/images/Switchcarb2.jpg Thank you all! |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by Dave on 10/31/14 at 06:00:33 I have never seen that before......don't know what it does. |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by stewmills on 10/31/14 at 06:48:22 Definitely not something seen in the states, but my guess (I am not an expert) is that with it being mounted on the TEV maybe it has something to do with the throttle/fuel supply and somehow works alongside the TEV to let something somewhere know its position (pulling or not pulling a vacuum)? Completely random guess but I'd have to see it and trace the wires. Taking the tank off (remove the seat first) is pretty easy, just watch for the petcock to scrub the frame but it'll come off with the petcock still on there if you're easy on her. Lastly, I can't read the numbers in the part clearly but maybe try googling the part numbers on the chip and see if it leads you to something. Welcome, and good luck with your new bike! It's a fun ride that's easy to work on and you'll really come to enjoy it! |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by Dave on 10/31/14 at 06:51:03 Any chance the previous owner had a Nitrous Oxide system installed? |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by stewmills on 10/31/14 at 07:04:11 That thought crossed my mind too. Did the PO install some gadget? If you look closely at the whole thing it looks pretty clean as if it's factory made versus a bunch of frankenstein add-ons. Strange. I'm really interested to hear what it is if/when someone figures it out. |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by engineer on 10/31/14 at 07:08:22 Quote:
The performance problem you describe definitely sounds like a petcock problem as you have already noted. Here is a link to the technical section describing how to test the petcock. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1251932429/1 In the technical section of this forum you will find an index and there is an entire section dedicated to petcock problems. I still use the stock petcock but many people do have problems with it. As for that electrical device, I have never seen one but there are European members on this forum and they might be able to help you out. |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by Tocsik on 10/31/14 at 07:18:54 Does your carburetor have the usual black choke knob on the other side? I'm wondering if it's auto bystarter. |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by old_rider on 10/31/14 at 07:23:45 Well by the D2SW part number I think it comes from this company, not sure though....it could be a generic code for micro switches... http://www.omron.com/ecb/products/sw/14/d2sw.html P.S. that is not a stock carb for a LS650 Electronic enrichment switch? |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by Dave on 10/31/14 at 07:41:18 0E0D051308050413610 wrote:
It looks like the stock carb to me.....except that he throttle shaft has been extended and the lever added, and the support for the switch uses the TEV screws to hold the switch on.....all very much factory looking to me....although not for the US bike. Until we know what the other end of the wires connect to....we are not going to figure this one out. |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by verslagen1 on 10/31/14 at 07:52:36 That's a EU gadget. probably a hp limiter for learners. We don't have that in the US. |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by old_rider on 10/31/14 at 08:10:44 Ok, I was WRONG.... it is an EU part... go here for the parts list... It is listed at number 47 on the carb break-down as a "throttle switch" https://www.motorcyclespareparts.eu/suzuki-parts/motorcycles/ls650-savage-2002/carburetor-451766.aspx Guess I need some coffee in me before I type stuff ::) ;D |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by Dave on 10/31/14 at 08:17:58 So.....what does it do? If you go to full throttle it will: Blow the horn? Flash the headlight? Divert the 10,000 volts from the spark plug to your throttle hand? :-? |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by verslagen1 on 10/31/14 at 08:40:27 1B202D3A2B273C3A2129243B480 wrote:
You wish it was your hand :o |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/31/14 at 22:57:50 MAN!Don't mess with That! That's the Self Destruct mechanism! |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by Jeff71 on 11/02/14 at 17:22:31 Yell, "Go go gadget, motorcycle!" at full speed and see if it turns into something. :P Jeff |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by old_rider on 11/02/14 at 19:17:55 I put it on facebook, still no answers there either |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by Michael L on 11/02/14 at 23:34:49 It's called a throttle position sensor, and is used on mikuni cv carbs. http://roadstarclinic.com/content/view/188/96/ |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by jcstokes on 11/03/14 at 00:28:37 Can you undo the large nut that seems to hold the vertical bar with the recess and remove the bar, and see what happens when you open the throttle? |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by Michael L on 11/03/14 at 03:06:51 Ok I have alittle doubt wether it's a tps or not - but if it is, you won't see anything happening to the slide |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by LiPix on 11/03/14 at 04:20:38 I will try to do so, but from what I've seen: 1. While riding, I open the throttle at maximum. Nothing bad happens, motorbike accelerates with high power... i stopped doing it at 90 mph... 2. It's a button switch, I supose that there isn't any magnetic sensor, so I guess that removing the piece will not do anything. It seems to be activated only when going full throttle.. 3. If it's a stock piece, it should have been documented somewhere >:( |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by Dave on 11/03/14 at 04:41:25 The Throttle Position Sensor thread was for a Road Star...and when I looked at those carbs on eBay....they are a completely different carb than the Savage carb. The throttle position switch referred to in that Road Star forum is not this switch or carb. I have no doubt the carb was set up with that switch from the factory - the mounting brackets look factory and are plated like they should be. (EDIT....and old-rider posted a link to the European parts list that shows the switch in the parts diagram). Have you asked your local dealer to look at this and comment on it? Have you seen any other S40/LS650 bikes in Spain......do any of the other bikes have this switch on the carb? It is the first carb we have ever seen on this forum with this switch. It sure would be nice to know where the other end of those wires go........ :-? |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by LiPix on 11/03/14 at 07:45:38 At this moment I can only answer to one question: 172C2136272B30362D252837440 wrote:
Yes, my father's motorbike is a ~1994 LS650 and does not have that switch!. I suppose it's mounted on newer bikes, from 2000 onwards, or it's particular to my bike. Btw new model S40 is not sold in EU :( Regarding other questions, I'm working on it ;) We'll find the answer. |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by Michael L on 11/03/14 at 08:31:23 I have that switch too, mine is a 1999 |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/03/14 at 09:13:10 I had a 2005, had the carb off a few times. I don't remember ever seeing a switch. |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by Dave on 11/03/14 at 10:05:28 6F7076716C6B5A6A5A62707C37050 wrote:
So far......Spain and Denmark have them in common. |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/03/14 at 10:26:01 Has anyone figured out what it does yet? |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by Michael L on 11/03/14 at 13:33:36 I had a long drive home on the backseat this evening, and used my phone searching until the battery died.. I have found absolutely nothing... But from what we know, 2 wires and a click switch.. My guess, the two wires must be positive and negative, which would make sense since the carb isn't connected to the bikes ground. And at full throttle, this device gets actuated and performs some kind of trick inside the carb.. But I have no idea, I have never before come across something even similar.. |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by Michael L on 11/03/14 at 13:48:37 Ok - I've finally found something.. This device is apparantly also used on a specific model dr 350.. http://www.ccwn.org/~lgeromil/motorrad/dr350e.htm On this page, go down to the bottom, at the topic "Differences of '96 DR 350SE and '91 DR350S:" there is a small picture to the right, and a description. |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by verslagen1 on 11/03/14 at 14:14:47 Quote:
So the switch probably goes to the Magic Sh!t Box. Since it retards the timing, probably uses the same circuitry as the starter. |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by Dave on 11/03/14 at 15:45:45 It must retard the spark under full throttle. Do you have a low grade of gasoline over there that could knock under full throttle? The stock engine is pretty low compression and only tends to knock at low rpms if you lug the engine. I wonder if the switch is only effective at low rpms and full throttle....and at higher rpms it doesn't retard the spark? (Unplug it.....and tell us if you notice a difference). My trials bike had a button that you could switch between two different spark curves...one for slippery ground and one for dry. I never could see any difference between the two. |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by HondaLavis on 11/03/14 at 18:10:16 Having identified it, I can't see it's true purpose. The stock S40 is EU A2 compliant; that is it does NOT produce more than 35KW, and it does NOT have a power to weight ratio >/= 0.2 KW per KG. It is also compliant for the initial 2 year restriction for the EU A license: that is power is </= 25 KW and the power to weight ratio is </= 0.16 KW per KG. Stock we produce approx. 23 KW and roughly 0.134 KW per KG based on the stock weight of 380 lbs. The only other restrictions I can find are for an A3 license, which restricts you to 125cc's or less. So we know WHAT it is... but WHY is it there? :-? |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by Dave on 11/04/14 at 03:41:05 The switch is intended to make the bike do.....something. We know that Suzuki would not have added anything to this bike if they didn't need to. Maybe the local fuel where they sell these bikes is better (or worse) than the rest of the world, maybe they have a more aggressive spark advance on those bikes and need to drop it back under full throttle, maybe it limits knock issue instead of limiting power.....or power instead of knock. It is still somewhat of a mystery. Someone with this switch needs to disconnect it and see if they have more power without it. |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by LiPix on 11/04/14 at 05:13:24 I will try to disconnect it during this or next week, and try to make power test. How do you suggest me to do so? Accelerating from 0 mph , or when I am riding at mid then give bike full throttle? I noticed a good power when accelerating from mid to full so I'm afraid of not being able to see any change. Regarding the gasoline, I don't know what properties does it have here, we have Super 98 octane, and Super 95 octane, being this last one the most used (also cheaper). 98 has more explosion power (as it's said). |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by Michael L on 11/04/14 at 05:29:38 Same here.. Most commonly used is 95, and then we have the Shell v-power 98. |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by Dave on 11/04/14 at 05:51:38 The Octane ratings are not probably easy to relate to the US numbers. The United States and Canada use some averaging thingy where they list our octane as an average between the "RON" (Research Octane Number) and "MON" (Motor Octane Numbers). Because of the 8 to 12 octane number difference between RON and MON, the numbers shown in Canada and the United States is 4 to 6 octane numbers lower than elsewhere in the world for the same fuel. Most other countries list an octane rating based on an AKI (Anti Knock Index). Our common octanes are 87, 89 and 92. |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by Thomas Högberg on 11/04/14 at 11:09:59 I have the same switch on my carb, a -97 imported from Germany to Sweden. |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by HondaLavis on 11/04/14 at 17:19:14 Disconnecting the switch is only a valid comparison if we know that the switch actually works in the first place. We don't know if the previous owner did anything to disable the switch like what was suggested on that dirt bike forum. If you have a multimeter, check the switch to see if it works and at what throttle position it actuates. Simply disconnect it and check continuity until the meter reads it connected. After that, do back to back rides with the switch connected and disconnected. If you don't notice a difference... :-/ |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by Steve H on 11/04/14 at 20:06:35 It's common for spark timing to be retarded by some amount under heavy acceleration. All cars do it. Fuel injected bikes do it. If it's a vacuum operated system, you need a vacuum sensor. A throttle position sensor will work for a system that doesn't vacuum advance if it has the smarts to use it. That's something that's generally missing on electronic ignition carbureted bikes. Spark advance is RPM related only. It has no way to tell if you're getting on it hard or not. So, it doesn't retard for hard acceleration. If that's to retard timing, I believe I'd want it to kick in before WOT but, there's no 'smarts' to it. Just on or off based on position. If I were really riding at WOT, I don't think I would want the timing to retard and slow me down. |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by Roba on 01/06/24 at 12:23:01 I started cleaning my carb today for the first time on my recently-ish aqquired savage and noticed this weird thing. This thread is the best source of information I've gotten to so far but I still lack the understanding of why it sits there. I have a '98 model that's imported to Finland from Sweden so now I know it's a EU thing. The fuel quality theory doesn't seem logical to me since it differs quite much even inside the EU. It goes to the ignitor according to the wiring diagram so the spark timing retardation seems to fit. But why..? Would be nice to do some A/B test riding but I'm still months away from riding season so chances are I will just rip the thing off and hope the bike still runs... Did anyone ever find anything else about this thing? I know it's an old thread but some of you seem still active! |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by ohiomoto on 01/06/24 at 13:52:32 Could it be a safety switch of some sort? Maybe it disables the starter so the bike won't start if the throttle is stuck wide open? |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by Dave on 01/07/24 at 04:25:56 One of the members who lives in a country where the switch is installed needs to go to a Suzuki dealer and see if they can get a copy (or look at) a factory workshop manual with the wiring diagram.......and see what this switch connects to. Even looking at a factory parts manual and seeing what they call that switch might help to identify what it does. |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by Roba on 01/07/24 at 05:39:52 I have some kind of workshop manual with the wiring diagrams and i can take a copy next time I visit the garage. Maybe that leads us somewhere but I'm too rookie on electrics myself to make much of it. |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by ThumperPaul on 01/07/24 at 08:52:40 When you say it "comes on" at WOT, what is "coming on"? Does it make a noise? Flash a blinky light? Cut off the fuel supply and make the bike starve for fuel because you're hot-rodding it? I saw the parts diagram calls it a "switch, throttle" (pretty vague and could be a misnomer). Could it be a thermo-switch heater plug? My Honda Shadow with dual carbs has a pair of heater plugs. Expensive little gizmos at $50/pop (basically resistors that look like mini spark plugs). They're totally useless to me here in Houston TX. Supposedly they provide a little heat when the ambient temperature gets down to around 32F/0C. I know some people ride in freezing weather, but not me. |
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Title: Re: What is that switch attached to the carb? Post by ThumperPaul on 01/07/24 at 08:54:45 Meet RON, MON, and PON... (just throwing this out there since Dave mentioned it) https://aircooledbug.co.uk/usa-versus-uk-fuel-octane/#:~:text=RON%20versus%20MON%20conversion%20table,PUMP%20at%20the%20gas%20station. |
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