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Message started by GnarlyDavidson on 10/11/14 at 20:43:24

Title: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by GnarlyDavidson on 10/11/14 at 20:43:24

Hey guys. Been going through your forums trying whatever I can to try and get my wife's savage running. We picked up a 98 with 300 miles on it this summer, and she has yet to be able to ride it :(

The problem:

Slow to start, taking about 15-20 seconds on the starter and max gas (I know, it's bad for it) to get it going, then it stutters and won't stay running unless I have a lot of gas on it. I've gone through to carb, changed the plugs, and then I came across the Raptor mod and the symptoms described there sounded much like what I was going through, so I ordered the new petcock. Installed it, ran it up a couple times and VIOLA, it's purring like a kitten. I go to turn the idle down a bit, and the bike dies. AND I'm back to the same problem.

Here are some things I've noticed that seem a bit odd:

When I took the filter off to clean out the airbox from the old petcock draining too much gas, the filter was soaked in gasoline. Would this cause the bike to not start?

Also, the pipe is generating an obscene amount of fumes from the middle of the pipe.

Please, anyone, all suggestions are welcome!

Thanks in advance.

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by GnarlyDavidson on 10/11/14 at 22:15:34

btw, it's a 1998 with 300 miles.

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/11/14 at 22:19:21

It can't suck air thru a wet filter.

If you put a Suzuki petcock on.. ooopsies.

A Less than well charged battery will spin it over,but not start it.
If you're getting gas in the air filter,you could easily have gas in the oil...
Mine would only start with no gas.. I twist the gas,, no go..
Idle below 1,000 RPM ruins the head.

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by verslagen1 on 10/11/14 at 22:21:49

this bike usually starts with no throttle, twist it and it won't start.

if you need to do WFO, then it's flooding.
if it's the petcock, then pull the vac line and plug it.
but it could be the float valve.
have you cleaned the carb?

now that's the general stuff.
we need to know everything for a better diagnostic.
intake, exhaust, any mods, what jets, etc.

if the filter got soaked, most likely no good.
and running w/out will lean it a bit, so it would be ok for a bit.

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by GnarlyDavidson on 10/11/14 at 22:31:30

Running without a filter??

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by GnarlyDavidson on 10/11/14 at 22:33:06

this bike usually starts with no throttle, twist it and it won't start.

if you need to do WFO, then it's flooding.
if it's the petcock, then pull the vac line and plug it. I have installed a raptor petcock already.
but it could be the float valve.
have you cleaned the carb? I have cleaned the carb and completely taken it apart.

now that's the general stuff.
we need to know everything for a better diagnostic.
intake, exhaust, any mods, what jets, etc. Everything is stock.

if the filter got soaked, most likely no good.
and running w/out will lean it a bit, so it would be ok for a bit. Can I take the filter off and run it to diagnose for a short period of time?

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by verslagen1 on 10/11/14 at 22:58:04

515857445A4F5257405F52455958360 wrote:

if the filter got soaked, most likely no good.
and running w/out will lean it a bit, so it would be ok for a bit. Can I take the filter off and run it to diagnose for a short period of time?

Yes, just don't go running it down a dirt road.
did you check the float height?

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by GnarlyDavidson on 10/11/14 at 23:24:22

Negative. Is there a guide for it?

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by verslagen1 on 10/11/14 at 23:27:42

28212E3D23362B2E39262B3C20214F0 wrote:

Negative. Is there a guide for it?

tech section index, bottom of the carb list

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by GnarlyDavidson on 10/11/14 at 23:54:12

Roger. I will try it out. Is there a section on adjusting it if it's out of whack?

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/12/14 at 07:29:55

No need,, Ya look at it,, just bend the tab. Take care to support the mount,don't wreck it. Make sure the floats float.. and the valve is working.
You can determine float height by using a clear tube, even a black one will do. Bike vertical, pull bowl drain, stick tube on,raise end up, The level in the tube is the same as in the carb.

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by GnarlyDavidson on 10/12/14 at 18:44:02

Okay, popped the filter, rode down the road for about 2 miles without any problems, then it started the sputter again, had a nice push home :) Will try working with the floats this week.

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by Spamy on 10/13/14 at 07:19:26

If its flooding, I cant imagine the floats are a problem. Maybe Im wrong though.

Hows the exhaust? plugged somehow? Because you said its fumes are coming out of it (which may just be oil on the pipe). Or something may be loose inside causing blockage sometimes.

Have you checked the plug condition. Change if for the heck of it, its cheap.

Its hard to troubleshoot a bike without if being in front of you. But generally you just need gas, spark and air. Verify all those first. The bike is simple and doesnt have too many complex things to check.

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by old_rider on 10/13/14 at 17:24:57

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by GnarlyDavidson on 10/13/14 at 19:43:54

597A6B67730A0 wrote:

If its flooding, I cant imagine the floats are a problem. Maybe Im wrong though. Just checked the floats, they're withing spec.

Hows the exhaust? plugged somehow? Because you said its fumes are coming out of it (which may just be oil on the pipe). Or something may be loose inside causing blockage sometimes. Guess I am gonna have to pull the pipes and check. The other day when I got the bike running perfect for a couple of miles there was no weird fumes or anything coming out. When it started running badly, it was billowing white smoke out the back of it.

Have you checked the plug condition. Change if for the heck of it, its cheap. Changed it.

Its hard to troubleshoot a bike without if being in front of you. But generally you just need gas, spark and air. Verify all those first. The bike is simple and doesnt have too many complex things to check. Definitely have gas, definitely have spark, I'm thinking air is the problem...

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by GnarlyDavidson on 10/13/14 at 19:45:13

4241495F4449485F2D0 wrote:

Gnarly.... take the tank off and check the connections and wires under it. The WOT problem was and probably is, the petc0ck... change it out to a Yamaha raptor 660 petc0ck...
The cutting off while running sounds like a loose electrical connector.....or pinched wire... most often the one connector under the tank causes a problem.. What is WOT? I've changed over to the Raptor petcock already, still having issues. I think the connector under the tank can be eliminated, because I've taken the tank on and off several times and am still having the same problem.

Jus' givin' some input...good, bad or ugly, hope it helps.

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by verslagen1 on 10/13/14 at 20:00:40

252C23302E3B2623342B26312D2C420 wrote:

What is WOT? I've changed over to the Raptor petcock already, still having issues. I think the connector under the tank can be eliminated, because I've taken the tank on and off several times and am still having the same problem.

WOT=wide open throttle.

there are 3 connectors under the tank.

the 2 big ones are what he's talking about.

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by verslagen1 on 10/13/14 at 20:06:29

373E31223C293431263934233F3E500 wrote:

Guess I am gonna have to pull the pipes and check. The other day when I got the bike running perfect for a couple of miles there was no weird fumes or anything coming out. When it started running badly, it was billowing white smoke out the back of it.

Billowing white smoke? persistent or disappears after a few feet?

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by GnarlyDavidson on 10/13/14 at 20:09:39

Persistent.

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by GnarlyDavidson on 10/13/14 at 20:14:16

However, to keep the bike running I had to have the throttle wide open, and even then it wasn't going above 15-20 MPH, and it was sputtering the entire time. To get it started I had to have WOT and hold the starter for like 20 seconds.

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by oldNslow on 10/13/14 at 20:38:35

I don't see any mention of your having drained the oil. If your original problem was the stock petcock you might want to make sure you don't have a crankcase full of gasoline.

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by verslagen1 on 10/13/14 at 21:34:13

3B323D2E3025383D2A35382F33325C0 wrote:

Persistent.

as in a trail of smoke that won't go away?

How's your oil level?

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by old_rider on 10/14/14 at 13:16:52

oldnslow could have something.... gas in the oil getting past the rings flooding it out with a little oil also..... causing white smoke.

Bad ring set?

When I got my 2003, there was waayyy to much oil in mine...because of the float needle leaking gas and filling up the crank case.
I'm glad I had read here about it and changed the oil soon as I got in home. I had started it and run it up onto my trailer, it was sputtering, but made it.

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by luckylouie82 on 10/15/14 at 08:53:02

The white smoke and smell of gas is what's setting off alarms in my head. Had the issues you're describing with an old Yamaha XS. And the problem was a bad idle mixture screw. Previous owner over tightened anc broke a tip off in valve. Never ran righ afetr because a hole was bored in the soft metal. I don't mean to insult you if this sounds too rudimentary, but did you adjust your idle mixture screw? If it's too rich that could easily cause bike to not want to run unless throttled up to burn all the excess gas coming in... Just thinking of the simple stuff before you go tear the engine apart. When you replaced the other spark was it black or oily?

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by GnarlyDavidson on 10/15/14 at 11:03:55

No insult taken at all. Yes, I tried to set the idle when it was actually idling correctly, and it was fine. The thing is though that this problem comes and goes... every time I take something apart or replace something, when I put it back together it runs fine for a couple of minutes, then it sputters and gets all nasty and I have to keep it throttled in order for the engine to not die. The old spark plug had a bit of white build-up on it, but no warped metal bits or anything like that. I guess after an oil change I'm pretty much looking at tearing the engine apart :( How does a bike with 300 miles get this much wrong with it?

6C75636B796C6F7569653832000 wrote:

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by GnarlyDavidson on 10/15/14 at 11:06:56

The thing that really baffles me here is that if it sits or if I take it apart and R&R parts, when it gets put back together I start and it and it purrs... no white smoke, no sputtering, and I get excited and think it's fixed... take it for a test ride and it starts the white smoke / sputtering again. I've never seen anything like this. Anyone have any pointers on eliminating a clogged exhaust? Could I take just the muffler off and try it, or will I get false positives / negatives because the jets won't be working properly anymore?

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by verslagen1 on 10/15/14 at 11:44:53

3B323D2E3025383D2A35382F33325C0 wrote:

OK, so you seem to be saying, when cold runs fine, once warm runs like crap.
Temperature issues are usually electrical.
I'd be looking at the coil.

But 1 other thing to look at... is there a washer under the main jet?

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by oldNslow on 10/15/14 at 11:48:00

Quote:

I guess after an oil change I'm pretty much looking at tearing the engine apart ...

So you haven't drained the oil yet, or checked to see if it's contaminated with gasoline?

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by GnarlyDavidson on 10/15/14 at 18:14:29

But 1 other thing to look at... is there a washer under the main jet? No. Should there be?

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by Yoshi on 10/15/14 at 18:47:04

yes, there should be

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by verslagen1 on 10/15/14 at 19:19:28

39303F2C32273A3F28373A2D31305E0 wrote:

But 1 other thing to look at... is there a washer under the main jet? No. Should there be?

there's your problem. the washer keeps the needle jet from being sucked up into the throat.

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by GnarlyDavidson on 10/15/14 at 20:48:39

Alright, I went and reverified, there is a washer on the main jet. However, I finally drained the oil (been a busy week at work and haven't had much time) and some liquid came out that was about the same viscosity and color as black coffee, and smelled like gasoline. There was far more than 2 qts in the bucket. Going to send the wife out for oil and a new filter in the AM, will report back after the change is done.

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by oldNslow on 10/16/14 at 07:27:16

Read this before you buy oil.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1344471565

The non-synthetic ShellRotella is the least expensive option. It can be found almost anywhere that sells oil.

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by GnarlyDavidson on 10/16/14 at 20:24:26

Thanks OldNSlow. I would have just gotten the AutoZone $2.00 / qt special :) We picked up some T6, just waiting on the oil filter to arrive at the local parts store.

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by GnarlyDavidson on 10/24/14 at 22:29:09

Hey guys.... I'm back :( Changed the oil, still no luck... as a matter of fact, it's worse. I can't even get it started now. Its backfiring every time i try to start it out of the breather box. I uploaded a video so you guys could see what I'm talking about. Listen close when I first hit the start and when I stop the first time and you'll hear the backfire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAbOEN41R3E&feature=youtu.be

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by Yoshi on 10/24/14 at 23:05:24

I wonder if your decompression valve is working properly..

How well did you clean the carb? I mean the bike is rather old with only 300 miles means the bike sat around gunking any and all passages in the carb

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by GnarlyDavidson on 10/24/14 at 23:12:18

fouled plug. cleaned, reinstalled, currently purring. wife is reinstalling seat and a test riding i will go.

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by GnarlyDavidson on 10/25/14 at 00:54:14

Alright guys, after ops check she sputtered one time and then purred the whole way around the neighborhood. I think this issue is solved. For search purposes, here is a summary and a rundown. My 1998 Suzuki Savage LS650 was having issue with sputtering and misfires when it got warm, and I would have to twist the throttle pretty hard to get it to start. The fix was to install a raptor 660 petcock (getting rid of the vacuum drawn petcock) and changing the oil because there was a LOT of fuel in the oil. After this was all done, the plug somehow was fouled with oil due to too many failed starts on the bad oil. So, I removed the plug, cleaned it, and voila, it's running like a bike with 300 mile should run! :)

Thanks so much for all the help from the guys who make this place their online home. You're all awesome, and I now have a happy wife who is going to start riding with me!

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/25/14 at 10:58:35

Wow,, Three HUndred MILES??? Shazzam,, its NEW! Did you have a look at the tires? Was it stored inside? Theyre new,, but then again,, theyre not,,

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by GnarlyDavidson on 10/25/14 at 19:44:46

Hi Justin,

Yes, I checked them over. They're in good shape, surprisingly. He had it stored in one of those personal bike garages... the little clamshell bubbles that you can put a single bike in. No cracking / dry rot anywhere.d

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by GnarlyDavidson on 10/25/14 at 19:51:13

Oh lord, my wife is already wanting to do more work on her bike. What are some good mods to get her started? I've already sourced a stock sportster muffler - is this a direct fit bolt on? I want to do Verslaggen's Cam Chain Tensioner mod and possibly some stuff in the rear triangle to free up some space around the aft portion of the carb. Anything else you guys can recommend?

Title: Re: HELP! I've tried everything I can think of.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/25/14 at 20:14:31

IDK about Sporty mufflers. DYNA mufflers are what most of us run.
Petcock, Dyna, tune the carb and ride..