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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1410638392 Message started by ghkizer1 on 09/13/14 at 12:59:52 |
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Title: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 09/13/14 at 12:59:52 :)First post on the forum, I am learning a ton from all the information out here. A quick run down, I received this bike for free and do not know the history on it. I went through the bike when I received it. Changed the oil, changed the spark plug, checked the cam chain tensioner(11mm), cleaned the carb, bike started right up but I heard a ticking noise coming from the top of the engine, figured it was valves, broke the bike back down, found TDC on the compression stroke, adjusted the valves down to .003, started the bike again, still a loud ticking noise. I have never heard one of these bikes run and have heard they are loud ticking engines. I uploaded a video to YouTube, I would REALLY appreciate it if some of you guys on here could check out the video and give me some advice. I am going to convert the bike into a bobber soon, would love some suggestions on a seat, fender, lights, and pegs. THANKS SO MUCH! Trey |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 09/13/14 at 13:00:15 Video link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-KcxdAFbyg&list=UUe7_jfwJKcnF56Qdm3zeMMQ |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 09/13/14 at 13:44:42 Not sure if it helps but I am located in Charleston, SC, the bike is a stock 2003 Suzuki Savage with 4248 miles. I would LOVE to get together with other riders in this area. I have another engine being delivered that I plan on completely rebuilding and maybe modifying for a little more power. I would be more than willing to help others with repairs,(I enjoying learning and helping others) you can pay me in beer. I have just about every tool you can think of and a garage to work in. Hopefully some locals will see this and respond. Thanks for reading. Regards, Trey |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by Yoshi on 09/13/14 at 14:42:38 It doesn't sound right.. Sounds like the noise it coming from up top |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by verslagen1 on 09/13/14 at 14:49:12 check the adjustment of your decomp.... looks to me like it's adjusted way to tight. And that probably where the noise is coming from. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 09/13/14 at 15:35:54 Thanks for the quick responses!! I just adjusted the decomp to 4mm. I got super excited since it was adjusted way to tight. Hit start and it fires right up, still tick tick ticking loud. Can't believe it! Any other suggestions? Verslagen thanks for the help! It did need adjusting and you are a legend. I appreciate it, one step closer to figuring this out. The bike seems to crank right up and run great other than this knocking. Its definitely coming from the top. Cheers! :) |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by NickGann on 09/13/14 at 15:48:45 Valves tapping head? How fast does it heat? (are we sure the oil situation is as it should be) To me it sounds like its running dry. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 09/13/14 at 15:51:44 I just replaced the oil. Used 2.1qts of Quicksilver Powersports Lubricants, Motorcycle 4-Stroke Oil, 20W-50 Full Synthetic, it was the only motorcycle oil at wally world. This is driving me crazy. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 09/13/14 at 16:39:50 I just did a compression test on a warm engine. I unscrewed the spark plug screwed in the tester, held the throttle wide open and hit start. The reading was 105psi. I know this is low... Did I do the test correctly? I couldn't find a good write up on it using the search. I haven't tried to pour in a tablespoon of oil and try it again. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by verslagen1 on 09/13/14 at 17:25:21 while rotella T and T6 are not marketed as m/c oil, they both have the JASO MA rating which is what our bike requires. I adjust the decomp by how it starts... 2 or 3 rev's and it may be too tight. 1st rev may be too loose. too loose and the starter may stall. looser is better to me. there's a little bathtub under the cam, if it's oiling properly, it's full of oil. set your bike upright or nearly upright with a block under the kickstand. run it for a minute, you don't want it hot for this test, then shut it down. take off the front valve inspection cover and stick your finger in there, you should be able to reach the tub and oil should be in it. while you're here, check the decomp cam. there's a little stub sticking out over the right side of the rocker. they shouldn't hit during normal operation. I would open the timing port and rotate the crank thru the exhaust stroke to check. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/13/14 at 17:58:10 Everything you've said makes me believe you're pretty sharp,but,you're new here,so,I HAFTA ask this.. Are you Certain that the motor was at TDC compression? You were careful to not turn it backwards to get it there? |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 09/13/14 at 18:20:36 Justin, I checked it twice to make absolute certain, I rotated the crank shaft the same direction the wheels spin, counter clock wise, went through the cycle a few times to make sure I had a good understanding of everything. I rested my hand on the intake rocker and when I felt it go down I then lined up the timing marks. I also popped out the sparkplug and carefully inserted a screwdriver in the hole touching the top of the piston. This would be TDC on the compression stroke correct? As far as Verslagen's advice, it starts on first rev so I think the decomp is slightly loose but it fires right up and runs great. (other than the loud knocking :D) I then stabilized the bike upright, ran it for a minute, and removed the top inspection cover. The rockers look like theyre oily but I couldn't find the oil tub, I didn't know exactly where to stick my fingers and could barely get one in anyway. I tried to take some pictures, maybe you can see it? I've still got the inspection cover off, could you be more specific on where I am looking? I also took a picture of the compression tester. Highest I got it was a hair over 110 with a warm engine. Thanks again everyone! |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 09/13/14 at 18:25:30 I know this is really stupid but I can't figure out how to post multiple pictures. I thought I came across a "How to Post Pictures" article before but now I can't find it. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 09/13/14 at 18:27:37 Also the decomp lever, if it isn't touching it is EXTREMELY close to touching. I tried to go through the cycle a few times and it does seem to be super super close to the top of the rocker. Is this normal? |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 09/13/14 at 18:29:05 another shot of the exhaust valves |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 09/13/14 at 18:30:27 one last pic |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by verslagen1 on 09/13/14 at 19:57:51 626D6E6C7F607734050 wrote:
I think that's your noise, you're gonna need to check cam wear. http://suzukisavage.com/yabb2.2/Attachments/photo_2_1.JPG |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 09/13/14 at 20:12:30 Unfortunately the decomp arm isn't the ticking noise. I added some more oil and cranked the bike, while it was idling I rotated the decomp arm by hand, I could feel and hear when the rocker arm began to contact the decomp arm. The ticking noise was still there before and after... I have another engine being delivered in a week. Maybe I will be able to analyze the new engine and reverse engineer it to figure out the problem. Either that or this engine has been ridden hard and put up wet leaving major internal damage. I really hope that isn't the case. Verslagen, THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR HELP AND PERSISTENCE!!! Is there anyway to tell if oil is properly circulating, I'm nervous that the top end isn't getting enough oil. Thanks again! |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by verslagen1 on 09/13/14 at 21:04:42 unfortunately, there's no oil pressure port in the head. about all you can do is loosen a bolt and watch oil spurt all over the place. http://images1.snapfish.com/347447863%7Ffp342%3Enu%3D323%3A%3E639%3E697%3EWSNRCG%3D32338747%3C74%3A4nu0mrj however, while you had the clutch cover off, did you notice an oil channel running along the top of the case? At the end of it, it transfers over to the tranny and there's a brass restrictor. if that was missing the oil pressure to the head would tank. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 09/13/14 at 21:08:40 Would the right bolt to lossen be the one at the top to the left of the cam chain? Just saw the second part of your post, don't remember seeing that piece but I also wasn't specifically looking. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by verslagen1 on 09/13/14 at 21:18:58 yep, that be the one. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 09/13/14 at 21:51:57 Well I was hoping to report back covered in oil but I removed that screw, which was really loose btw, the screw itself is covered in oil but when I cranked the bike it didn't spew out from that hole or even drip out. I attached a picture to make sure I removed the correct screw. I can take the clutch cover off and check for the brass piece tomorrow if there is no other way. Thanks again!! |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by 1st2know on 09/13/14 at 22:12:02 212E2D2F3C233477460 wrote:
By the looks of the sealant smeared around the cam cover plug, someone has had the head cover off. If it were me, I'd take the head cover off for a look-see. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by verslagen1 on 09/13/14 at 22:30:18 yep that's the one. at idle the pressure off the pump is 5psi or less if your idle speed is low. so pressure at idle at the head could be near nothing. give it a twist and see if you got a gusher. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by polarpilot on 09/14/14 at 04:33:21 Mine ticks too. But after a run at normal speeds the ticking noise disappears. So take your bike out for a ten mile run and listen to see if the noise is gone at the end of the ride. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 09/14/14 at 07:32:44 Thanks again for all the help! I cranked the bike up this morning with that one head bolt out, let it idle for a min or so then gave it some throttle watching that bolt hole. Nothing, wasn't gushing, dripping, spraying, nothing... I'm going to take the head off and have a look-see. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 09/14/14 at 09:32:59 Well I took the head cover off. I think I found my problem. First and foremost I am starting to realize more and more this engine has been abused and worked on a lot before. The top bolts under the valve inspection covers in the middle between the rockers on the outside are both broken off, there is at least one other head bolt broken and the stud close to the decomp is some shady nut, not the stock one. When I removed the cover I could see where the cam shaft is banging against the top of the cover. There are active metal shards on the top cover that haven't completely separated which you can see in the following pictures. Is it possible this is an aftermarket cam shaft? Have you guys ever seen a stock cam shaft begin banging on the cover? I am trying to make the best of this new found knowledge. I am thinking of pulling the entire head and have the parts cleaned and head bolts tapped out so it will be a good strong hold. I guess while I'm in there I could go ahead and get a new piston and rings and do a complete rebuild. I have never done anything like this before but am eager to learn. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 09/14/14 at 09:33:30 you can see the scratches on the top of the cover |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 09/14/14 at 09:33:54 a close up |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 09/14/14 at 09:35:09 cam shaft with damage |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 09/14/14 at 09:36:37 are the underside of the rocker arms suppose to be worn light this? |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 09/14/14 at 09:37:59 do you guys have this clump of metal screen in the engine vacuum port? |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by verslagen1 on 09/14/14 at 09:43:41 353A393B28372063520 wrote:
Yes, and that's the breather port. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by verslagen1 on 09/14/14 at 09:43:58 79767577647B6C2F1E0 wrote:
no |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by verslagen1 on 09/14/14 at 09:46:05 79767577647B6C2F1E0 wrote:
We call'm journals and them's bad. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 09/14/14 at 09:46:43 Dang, Verslagen, whats my best course of action here? What if I upgraded and modded this engine with new parts. Do they make a kit for that sort of thing? I'd like to save the engine if possible. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by Ed L. on 09/14/14 at 10:12:46 Do a search in the Tech section for Oldfeller's "Simplified Refit of the Cam Journals". It shows how to repair a wiped cam journal in the head. As far as I know there isn't a retrofit kit for this, you will need to replace the head, cover, cam and rockers unless you can find a used assembly. Luck with it. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by NickGann on 09/14/14 at 16:53:56 That is some rough action there man. What would cause all this wearing? |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 09/14/14 at 17:02:08 I have no idea? Never opened up an engine before, I try to take care of mine so this doesnt happen. I got this bike for free and dont know the history of it. If I venture an inexperienced guess I would say someone ran this bike dry. The top end either over heated or didnt get enough oil. Im on a mission to get this beast running. Do you think i could get the head cleaned up at a machine shop, put in a new cam shaft and rockers and try this again? Or do I need a completely new top end? Cheers! |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by Serowbot on 09/14/14 at 17:46:28 73747E767A7C73731D0 wrote:
Low idle speed...http://suzukisavage.com/yabb2.2/Templates/Forum/default/cry.gif |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by Ed L. on 09/14/14 at 17:52:09 Don't know if a machine shop would do the repair. The journals would need to be recut and the only way to get the meat for that cut would be to remove metal from the cover and head. Once you add up the machine work and new parts like a cam, rockers and gaskets you might be better off with getting a used motor. There is a good chance some metal from the rockers got into the rest of the engine so it would need a good cleaning. The engine was probably run with a low oil level or too low an idle. An idle of 500 rpms sounds good but it needs to be around 1000 rpm to get the oil to the top end. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 08/31/16 at 14:59:51 OK so I hate to revive a very old thread but maybe others are dealing with a similar problem. It has been almost 2 years since I got this bike and I'm just now getting around to working on it again so here I am. It was very discouraging to open up the engine and find the rockers badly worn, journals destroyed and camshaft damage. Someone must have run it with no oil... Anyway, I have now bought a parts bike, took the head off and found a camshaft in good condition along with the rockers and head cover. Question is, what would you guys do in this case? Would you try to swap the camshaft, rockers, and head cover out and run it like that or go further and replace the entire top end of the engine, or would you swap in a completely different engine? Also, I couldn't find a good walk through on removing the camshaft, do you have to get a special tool and remove the clutch or? Any advise is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!! :) |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 08/31/16 at 15:00:31 Here's a picture of how badly the old rockers were worn. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 08/31/16 at 15:20:41 this is what I'm trying to turn into something. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 08/31/16 at 15:23:07 camshaft looks worn at least on one lobe but maybe I could just file down the rouge edges and slap on the new rockers/head cover? replacing the camshaft is going to be a major job I'm guessing. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 08/31/16 at 15:23:32 here is the new rockers/head cover |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by batman on 08/31/16 at 16:29:17 The head and the bearing cap are line bored (there a matched set) you need to replace both and you have damage to the bearing journals in the head anyway. Seeing you have low compression I'd replace the entire top end ,just to be safe,if you don't you'll just be ruining your new parts .You should get a Clymers book to help guide you through the process .your old cam and rocker arms are junk.the cylinder can be saved for a rebore. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/31/16 at 16:40:57 I'm a mechanic and I know Real, professional mechanics. Unless you Know the job, have done it until you don't need a manual, you need a manual. And no, filing the cam won't be okay. It's hard at the surface. Get under the hard stuff, it's gonna wear. They are polished, and file marks will eat your rockers. The used engine idea was likely the answer. Did someone here suggest you buy parts? |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by batman on 08/31/16 at 16:52:01 JOG he's got a parts bike,he could swap the motor ,but he's already taking it apart! Another case of jump then ask? |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 08/31/16 at 17:01:14 Thanks for the quick replies! It is not quite a case of jump then ask as the parts bike I got has sat outside for years and was given to me for free. I wouldn't go through the hassle of swapping the entire engine out without taking a look inside first. The parts bike top end looks good as far as I can tell. I haven't removed it from the frame yet to take off the cylinder. I will be ordering the Clymers manual today on ebay unless someone can direct me to a better place to grab one. Is it correct that I will have to remove the clutch to remove the camshaft? If so I know I need a special tool for the rotor. While I have both engines out I want to grab a verslagen tensioner, do the head plug mod, raptor petcock mod and replace all gaskets. I have been trying to educate myself as best as possible before I start ordering parts. Thanks again for the replies, I really appreciate it. If there are any forum members around the tri-country area in Charleston, SC I would love to get together. Have a garage we can wrench in and many tools that I don't mind sharing. Cheers |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/31/16 at 17:02:17 Well, to swap the tops he hazta take stuff apart, but deciding How to repair a zorched engine when providing details to experienced people will deliver the best options instead of risking stumbling around, wasting time and money.. ? Why? What is the benefit in being on a forum? Post pics of what you did? That you can do over? If it's got low compression and I can see what shape the journals are in, and Yes, the head and cover Are line bored. Supposed to replace them as a pair. Recommend you slow down, What are the relevant parts of the post? I don't wanna be digging through a bunch of meaningless stuff. What's wrong with swapping out the whole motor? |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 08/31/16 at 17:36:42 I'm not sure if it has low compression, it tested at 105 cold and 110 warm a few years ago when I first got the bike. You can hear it run in a youtube video I posted in the first message. The parts bike I found has sat outside for years, I was told the engine ran when parked but have no other information on it. I don't trust it. When I pulled the head cover everything looked great, when I pulled the clutch side cover the clutch is corroded bad so that will certainly need to be replaced regardless. Thanks for the advise, I'm new to working on bikes. I understand I need to replace the head and cover in a set now, so I'm thinking of pulling both the engines, taking the entire top end off the parts bike and installing it on the bottom end of the original engine. I know this will be a lot of work but this is more of a hobby and I want to learn a lot about these engines. I guess I could also just buy a used engine, do a swap and sell the other parts but I figured I would at least try to piece together one good engine from what I have first. What would you do? |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/31/16 at 17:42:03 I'd start with evaluating the engines. You have Two clutches Starter Get a compression test on both. You may or may not have an engine. Don't just start swapping parts. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by Dave on 08/31/16 at 17:58:57 I would expect the cam bearing surface of the head to be just as chewed up as the head cover, and I would not use good rockers on a camshaft that is showing wear. I wouldn't assemble the engine without taking the cam out and looking at the head to see if it is worn. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 08/31/16 at 18:00:36 Ok I will try to do another compression test. When I did it a few years ago when the bike was running the original engine was between 105-110. I'll have to do some research on doing them. The engines are already partially disconnected as I was preparing to pull them. Can you do a compression test without reconnecting everything? Researching now. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 08/31/16 at 18:05:20 Thank you Dave. I think I am going to pull both engines, pull the top end off the original engine an take a look at the head. Then probably swap the entire top end. I know I'm going to need a 32mm socket for the front pulley and that special clutch pulling tool. Will I need any other special tools? Ordering a new gasket set, clymers manual, and clutch puller tomorrow. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 08/31/16 at 18:08:52 I still can't find anything about pulling the camshaft, do you have to remove the clutch to remove it or can you just take off the covers and tensioner? I'm sure this is explained in detail in Clymers I just want to get an idea of what I'm up against. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by verslagen1 on 08/31/16 at 18:10:30 59565557445B4C0F3E0 wrote:
you don't need a clutch puller, comes off quite easily. I forget witch socket you need with the clutch, but you need a 30 and a 32. If you plan on pulling the rotor, there is a special tool for that. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by batman on 08/31/16 at 18:12:56 Which is why I made the crack about you taking it apart, you could have put a little oil in the spark plug hole ,turned it over buy hand a few times and done a compression test....you don't have to do anything to the clutch except take off the side cover and jam a piece of soft alum. plate between the toothed gears just below where you removed the tensioner , to keep them from turning when you take out the two bolts that hold the 'c' clip on the side of the timing gear on the cam.(take care not to drop them down inside the motor).You have a need to read! |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by verslagen1 on 08/31/16 at 18:15:33 so keep the cover and head together, they are machined to fit. I would use the other engine as is, it maybe seized, pour a little atf in the sparkplug hole in case the rings are stuck. All these these things you are about to get into are why people fail and ruin an engine. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by batman on 08/31/16 at 18:22:17 You also should be aware that the rotors and TDI boxes can be different depending on model year ,what are these bikes?Years? 4or 5 speed? |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 08/31/16 at 18:29:52 Thanks Verslagen and Batman, I was just about to bring that up. The original bike was manufactured in 8/2003, the parts engine 3/1995. According to my research I should be good as far as the cdi goes? batman, I did do a compression test on the original engine before I started into it, it came back low at 105-110. The top end is certainly worn badly. The parts bike I don't trust regardless. Thanks again guys, I really appreciate you taking the time to help me out. I really like the simplistic way the ls650 bobbers look. I think I may buy another running bike so I have something to ride while I'm tinkering with these. Anyone selling one? :) |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by batman on 08/31/16 at 18:37:26 You should be aware that the 95 doesn't have the anti kickback gear for the starter,you should use the starter gears and sidecover from your 03 if you swap motors and it willbolt right up |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by verslagen1 on 08/31/16 at 18:45:14 Take a look at the TDI black boxes, if they have the same connector, they you should be able to swap w/out further mod's. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 08/31/16 at 18:56:30 Ok, thanks. I will check the TDI box. This was the clutch corrosion I was speaking of within the parts engine. I might be able to swap out the clutch from the original engine? |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by verslagen1 on 08/31/16 at 19:51:37 clutches should be identical. I think only the 86 was different. |
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Title: Re: 2003 Savage ticking? Please advise Post by ghkizer1 on 08/31/16 at 20:02:55 Ok, cool. I PM'd you about getting a modded tensioner and head plug. |
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