|
SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1406499551 Message started by 94camroz28 on 07/27/14 at 15:19:10 |
|
Title: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by 94camroz28 on 07/27/14 at 15:19:10 I've been chasing a flooding, stumbling, non running issue since I purchased this bike. Its an '07 Boulevard S40 with 1600 miles on it. I was told the carb needed to be rebuilt. Taking it apart, I found the main jet slightly gummed up, and the pilot jet clogged. After putting everything back together, it didn't seem to help, and I posted this: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1405709175 Well its been a while and I finally had a chance to pull everything back apart. I went through everything on the carb, cleaning it all again. I put carb cleaner into the fuel line and held the float up thinking the needle valve maybe was leaking. Nothing came out until lowering the floats enough that valve lowered. I put the floats in a bowl of warm water looking for bubbles thinking maybe I had a bad float, but they seam ok. Some suggested previously that the petcock could be an issue. I've tried removing the vacuum line last time and there wasn't any fuel in it. Also, I removed it from the carb itself and capped the line/carb inlet. Running it on PRI the bike still acted the same. I found the air cleaner box full of fuel/oil today when I went to install the freshly cleaned carb. I pulled the little plug/cap at the bottom of the box and let it all drain out. Long story short, after putting everything back together today, the bike fired right up, and ran great for about a 1/4 mile. Then it shut off and wouldn't restart. The long black drain tube that runs to the bottom of the bike, about 4 inches off the ground was full of oily fuel. I haven't pulled the air filter box apart yet but Im sure its full again, as its acting just like it did before. Anyone have any ideas before I decide to just burn this darn thing! :-[ |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by Serowbot on 07/27/14 at 15:54:45 You're in exactly the right place,... you just aren't getting it fixed... I would go ahead and buy a new float needle and seat... Fuel can only come in through that needle... or the vac line that you have bypassed... Only possible things are... - vac line from pet - float needle and seat - float leaking - floats sticking - floats not adjusted correctly... |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by verslagen1 on 07/27/14 at 16:01:47 I agree with bot and I'll add a few more... What size jets? Do you have stock exhaust and intake? White spacer should be .100 to .110 tall and sits on top of the needle. http://suzukisavage.com/images/uploaded/JetsEtc01web.jpg |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by 94camroz28 on 07/27/14 at 16:19:53 As far as I know the jets, exhaust, intake, etc are all stock and untouched. This bike was donated to a non profit organization. Was lady owned/driven previously per the title. It looks as if nothing has been touched. If I do not have any fuel in the vac line, is it safe to say that the petcock is not the issue? Also, is there any suggested places to buy the new parts? |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by Oldfeller on 07/27/14 at 16:36:28 No, you cannot say you don't have a bad stock vac petcock. From what you describe, you likely HAVE a bad stock vac petcock. Before you waste your time and money chasing everything else under the sun, pay the $26 and get a Raptor petcock and put it on the bike. After you have been running the Raptor for a week, the remaining few symptoms can be chased with some assurance -- BUT UNTIL YOU GET A RAPTOR you may be chasing butterflies and neither you nor we will be able to separate reality from butterflies when you go doing it. Key point -- gas in the air box. Comes from a bad vac petcock or a stuck float valve (but you took your bowl apart, right? Float and valve were operating correctly) What remains is a bad stock vac petcock ..... |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by 94camroz28 on 07/27/14 at 16:39:00 I thought the test of pulling the vac line off and capping both the carb and line itself tested the petcock? I have no trace of fuel in the vac line and was under the impression that a back petcock would have had fuel in the vacuum line? |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by Drestakil on 07/27/14 at 17:16:10 75782F2D213E23367E744C0 wrote:
I think you're right. The float/needle valve doesn't seem to be shutting off the fuel supply when the bowl is full. But then, changing to a Raptor 660 petcock still might be a good idea. I'm thinking since it ran OK for a little while after you cleaned the carburetor, it may be dirty again. Might be small bits of rust & trash in the tank. Drain some gas into a clean jar and see if it looks clean. Might be time to add an inline gas filter. |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by 94camroz28 on 07/27/14 at 17:18:27 Actually it runs ok until it starts flooding itself out. If I drain fuel from the tank it looks and smells like fresh fuel with no signs of debris. I think I am just going to order a new needle valve/seat. Im finding OEM parts for $55 :o Might have to try to track down a cheaper option, really don't wanna drop that much cash for such a little piece. |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by Drestakil on 07/27/14 at 17:41:11 I hope that does it for you. I can't even imagine a way for oil to get into the air box. But then, I've never had mine apart. |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by Steve H on 07/28/14 at 03:47:55 Oil in the airbox comes from the huff tube. The big hose from the head that connects to the airbox. |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by Seaweednh on 07/28/14 at 06:15:50 Have you changed the fuel line from the carb to the petcock? The new fuels eat away at rubber hoses and "could" be sending little pieces to get into the needle and seat. If you haven't swapped over to a raptor petcock, the major advantage I found, second to a trouble free bike, is that the tank comes off so much easier. With the old petcock, not sure if it was stock or not, I had to drain the tank and remove the petcock. With the raptor. As long as it's turned off, the tank comes off as if it wasn't there. |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by 94camroz28 on 07/28/14 at 06:23:16 Well I wont have a chance to work on the bike again for a while yet. I went ahead and ordered a Raptor petcock. Even if that isn't the problem, I figure it prevents a future problem. I also ordered a new needle valve and seat. I'll update this thread hopefully at the end of the week with good news. Aaron |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by Seaweednh on 07/28/14 at 06:48:19 Wishing you the best. I'm always curious, what state are you in? |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by 94camroz28 on 07/28/14 at 07:25:13 I live near Green Bay, WI |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by swedishbiker on 07/28/14 at 11:42:29 Yeah those petcocks are problems :) I was riding few days ago and suddenly the bike start to act strange. I did drive home on prime. Next day I removed the fuel line so I could remove the petcock. Did only drain 10cc gas :( I had drive with empty tank :) So the factory petcock from 1993 is still working just fine. |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by bobert_FSO on 07/28/14 at 12:13:04 The stock petcocks fail one of two ways-- open or closed. If they fail open, they leak gas down the fuel line or the vacuum line. The result is flooding. If they fail closed, either there is a vacuum leak or the diaphragm gets too stiff and doesn't open under vacuum. You get fuel starvation. That is what happened to mine. In cold weather, I would stall, coming to a stop. Under low vacuum conditions like 65 MPH into a stiff headwind, the engine would just quit, like running out of gas. Flipping to PRI would get the engine to fire up again while still rolling. |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by verslagen1 on 07/28/14 at 13:20:59 6E636E697E780C0 wrote:
I think you've left something out... If the petcock fails open, the shutoff seal has failed or there is something holding the valve open allowing gas to flow. You're now dependent on the float valve to stem the tide. Or the diaphragm has failed allowing gas to leak into the vac line and directly into the intake bypassing the float valve. This will also leak while running and cause an over rich condition. |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by busterboy on 07/28/14 at 13:55:19 Might be a wild goose chase, but have you tried running with the petcock in prime position? mine woudnt run unless I had it on prime, I replced it and it runs perfect now. |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by 94camroz28 on 07/28/14 at 15:43:45 3D2A2C2B3A2D3D30265F0 wrote:
Yup, I've tried removing the vacuum line, capping it off, and running on prime. The results were the same. |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by Serowbot on 07/28/14 at 16:19:18 Then it ain't the petcock... I'd change it anyway, just 'cause they are a PIA,.. but that ain't the problem... You have a problem in the floatbowl.. needle seat or floats... ;)... |
|
Title: Update to my non running, flooding, carb/petcock Post by 94camroz28 on 07/31/14 at 14:15:31 Today in the mail I received my new needle and seat. I took the carb apart yet again and checked, everything was clean internally with no debris found. I changed out the needle/seat and started the bike on the PRI position. Im waiting yet for my Raptor petcock to arrive, so I have the vacuum tube pulled off/bypassed. The bike started a little hard but did fire, and then ran great! I made it much farther than previous runs up and down my sub division. I actually thought it was totally fixed until I tried a full throttle blast in 1st gear. I popped and then started to stumble as if it was either starving of fuel or flooding. I pulled in the garage and felt I could have forced it to stay running if I kept half throttle, but releasing the throttle to the idle position and it quit. I wasn't able to get it to re start. One major difference now is that I tried pulling the little rubber cap/plug that's at the bottom of the air box, and to my surprise, there was not a drip of fluid that came out. Previously, the airbox was filling with a oil/gas mixture. The black drain tube that sticks out about 3-4 inches under the bike was however full of a fuel/oil mixture again though. >:( What exactly is this tube and what purpose does it have? Do I still have a flooding issue even though the air box was dry? Or is it possible the petcock is jacked up that even in the PRI position the bike wasn't getting fuel? Not sure where to go from here. Also, I tried testing my floats by filling a small plastic container with fuel. I dipped the bottom of the carb into the fuel until the floats closed the float needle. I would say the fuel had to get about 1/4in to maybe 1/2in from the base of the carb where the bowl mounts in order to close the needle. Aaron |
|
Title: Re: Update to my non running, flooding, carb/petco Post by Seaweednh on 07/31/14 at 15:13:41 Aaron, You may want to consult the manual and set the float height to specs. The wrong height will give you flooding or starvation and anything in between. In my youth people I know would come to me to re-rebuild the carbs they had done. Most of there problems were flooding, and 90% of the time it was the float height was set wrong. You have eliminated the valve by capping off the vacuum line at both ends and obviously you have fuel flow. So now it's to see why the flow doesn't stop (needle, seat, and float) |
|
Title: Re: Update to my non running, flooding, carb/petco Post by Drestakil on 07/31/14 at 16:01:41 Did happen to check the filters on the petcock inside the tank? It wouldn't have anything to do with the gas in the air box but it might explain the fuel starvation. Just a thought. |
|
Title: Re: Update to my non running, flooding, carb/petco Post by engineer on 08/01/14 at 18:02:48 It almost sounds as if you are dealing with two problems at one time, always hard to troubleshoot. From what you have said in this post and the earlier one it sounds like you did have a float needle/seat that was leaking and now you have that fixed. You might now have some fuel starvation. Quote:
I don't know the spec but I think the fuel level in the float bowl should be up near the point where the bowl gasket is. I think you can attach a clear plastic tube on the drain at the bottom of the bowl and hold the end up and see how high the fuel level is (sort of like a gauge glass). I always set them just a tiny bit below the gasket unless I have the actual spec. |
|
Title: Purpose of the Huff Tube? Post by 94camroz28 on 08/01/14 at 17:10:52 I believe the black tube that sits about 3in under the bike with a plug in it is referred to as a huff tube. What is the reason for this and what does it do? I've been chasing what I thought was a flooding issue for a bit. The airbox and this tube kept filling up with a oil/fuel mixture. I've changed out needle/seat on the carb and the bike ran much longer/better. After a full throttle run in 1st gear it started to stutter, pop, and shut off again. This time however the airbox was not flooded with this mixture, but the huff tube still was full again. So what exactly is the purpose of this tube and what would cause it to continue to fill up with a oil/fuel mixture? Thanks Aaron |
|
Title: Re: Purpose of the Huff Tube? Post by Serowbot on 08/01/14 at 17:56:39 The "huff" tube,... is the crankcase vent tube... it should go from the right-side top of the head, to the air filter... if yours is hanging down... it's disconnected. and should be reconnected.... When the piston goes down,.. this is where the displaced air goes, so that you don't blow an engine seal... that, is the "huff"... (it gets pulled right back when the piston goes up)... There is tube that comes from the airbox and hangs down.. it should have a little drip cap on it... it drains collected moisture and oil residue from the airbox... and should be drained at each oil change interval... Quote:
|
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by Serowbot on 08/01/14 at 18:19:43 Bump... 3 threads have been combined into one,.. in order to consolidate the pertinent info about this ongoing problem... Sorry for any confusion this has caused... in the long run, it will be easier to troubleshoot this way... Serow |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by 94camroz28 on 08/01/14 at 18:29:12 Thanks for the clarification on the Huff Tube. I was talking about the tube that runs from the filter box to under the bike. Every time the bike floods/acts up, this tube is full of an oily residue that smells like gas. There is also a small clear cap that is directly connected to the air filter box on the bottom. I didn't realize there was a cap on the bottom and also a drain tube. Aaron |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by Serowbot on 08/01/14 at 18:35:09 As long as you have this fuel problem,.. it will collect in the crankcase and filter box... the collecting is a symptom, not the problem... The problem, is in the petcock vacuum line, or.. inside the floatbowl, i.e., needle, seat, floats, float level, mechanics of the float hinge movement... Ride and test as little as possible until this gets fixed... because it is contaminating your oil... Concentrate your efforts in the float and petcock area... Best I can advise you at this point... |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by 94camroz28 on 08/01/14 at 19:26:56 Thanks! My new raptor petcock should be arriving any day now. |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by 94camroz28 on 08/04/14 at 07:50:58 Well I have an update, kinda. I received and installed the new Raptor petcock yesterday. The bike started right up and seamed to run good. But same as before, after a few minutes and maybe a half mile down the road, it started to stutter and miss, and then shut off. The trend after replacing my needle/seat is that the airbox no longer fills with oil/fuel. However the long black drain tube that runs to the bottom of the bike was partially full. So far that's a new needle/seat, raptor petcock, floats checked for sinking, and cleaned the carb inside and out twice. I'm going to check the float height next although I'm not sure how this really could get bent or out of place. I've already held the carb in a bowl of gas without the bowl on and watched the needle close when the fuel is about 1/4" from the carb/bowl mounting flange. Any input as to a better method or where to adjust the floats? My other thought is I haven't changed the spark plug. Is it possible that the plug is bad and/or cracked, causing an issue once warm it fouls? Fuel keeps coming in flooding out? Not sure what else to try or look at, about ready to just buy a different used carb. :-/ Aaron |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by Arnold on 08/04/14 at 09:26:23 Does power cut out when it shuts off? How quickly are you able to restart the bike? |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by Serowbot on 08/04/14 at 09:40:22 1E1344464A55485D151F270 wrote:
Nope... once the engine dies, it can't suck any more gas... the engine will only suck up what it can burn, unless the carb is messed up... What you have is definitely a fuel problem...not an engine problem... Now that you have a Raptor, (and the vacuum line is solidly blocked off)... it is narrowed down to to a carb problem... Buying a new carb is a drastic solution,.. but it should fix the problem... I wouldn't spend the money... I'd fix the problem, but that's your choice... If you do,... I'd recommend staying with the stock model carb... a different model is a whole new can of worms to deal with... May I suggest you keep at it for a while... I'm sure you're missing something simple... We can find it, with some persistence... Try this... remove the bowl, disconnect the fuel line from the Raptor,... now, with the floats just hanging down in space, blow into the fuel line, while you slowly raise the floats with your finger... As they reach horizontal, you should feel your air cut off... it should be impossible to blow past the float needle... if air still passes,.. there is something wrong with your seat installation... Good luck... ;)... |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by 94camroz28 on 08/04/14 at 11:22:00 4F5A4142424B5A4B5C2E0 wrote:
The best I can explain it is its as off you turned the choke on a small engine that's hot. It suddenly starts chugging and coughing. I can keep it running for about 10-20 seconds by keeping full throttle, but then its done. Also, it will not restart until the bike cools down. Usually it'll be at least 20-30 min before it'll start, but if it completely cools its a sure bet it'll fire right up. |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by 94camroz28 on 08/04/14 at 11:24:09 Serowbot, I'll try that, thanks! |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by Seaweednh on 08/04/14 at 11:51:13 Pull the plug, what color is it at the ignition end? Better still, post a photo. |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by Seaweednh on 08/04/14 at 11:54:28 When it's about ready to die, loosen the gas cap and see what happens. |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by 94camroz28 on 08/04/14 at 11:57:28 Alright guys, I finally was able to get home from a camping trip and try a few things. First, I held a clear tube on the bottom of the carb bowl and let the fuel drain into it. Holding it upright, I was trying to see how far up in the bowl the fuel was coming. I wasn't able to get a real good look but I felt that as before, when I held the floats/carb into a bowl of fuel, the fuel is getting to about 1/4" shy of the mounting flange of the bowl. After this, I then tried removing the fuel line from the raptor petcock, and then blew into the fuel line. As the floats reached the mid point of total travel, air flow started to become restricted. Slightly past the mid point, I was not able to blow any air at all into the fuel line. I feel quite confident the new needle/seat that I installed is working properly, also it wasn't a cheap aftermarket, I installed an OEM part. I then also had stopped at the power sports dealer near by and picked up a new NGK spark plug. I figured for $3, why not. I took the new plug and found the correct sized deep well socket. Then with an extension I reached down in to loosen the old plug and holy crap, it was VERY loose already! :o In fact it was so loose that I couldn't even use the ratchet, and had to use my fingers on the extension. The old plug looks rather black/fouled as to be expected, with the remainder of the plug looking normal. Although everyone says its a fuel issue, and I believe it still may be, I am hoping this is the actual cause. Is it possible it started to miss fire from the super loose plug, but since the engine was still turning/pumping air, fuel was being sucked in and not burnt until it finally flooded itself out? With so much screwing around with this bike the already old/used up battery finally has taken a dump. Unfortunately I wasn't even able to start it to try the bike. I'll report back tomorrow after I get a chance to get a new battery and install it. Aaron |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by 94camroz28 on 08/08/14 at 08:37:01 New battery in today and the bike fired right up, after idling a bit and warming up, I was able to shut if off and restart it without a problem. Before I wasn't able to do this, it wouldn't restart till cooled off. I took it for a short ride up and down my road. It seemed to be completely normal for at least 5-10 minutes, which is a huge improvement over before. After a few full throttle blasts it again started to act up. I seems to almost stutter a little and then starts to miss, however now not nearly as bad as before. With some throttle control I could still keep it running now, where before there was no way. When I checked the float height the other day I did bend the floats slightly so that they would close the float needle sooner. I am going to drop the bowl again once it cools down and adjust the floats again to see if that makes a difference. Aaron |
|
Title: Re: I'm stumped! Carb or Petcock, or both?! Post by 94camroz28 on 08/08/14 at 12:29:49 FIXED!!! :) Well it turns out it may have been one little thing, or a combination of issues all working against me! I guess that's what you get buying a used bike with unknown history. Today after I readjusted the floats again, the bike seemed better, but I still was getting some oil/fuel in the black drain tube at the bottom of the bike. I decided since I've done a number of test runs that I should change the contaminated oil. I planned on doing this right away, however I didn't want to change it and then recontaminate it with flooded fuel. Looking into the sight glass the oil level was full. As I removed the drain bolt, I couldn't believe my eyes. I would guess AT LEAST 2.5-3 quarts came out. Either someone didn't know what they were doing and decided to fill the bike full of oil, or that much fuel had gotten into the crankcase initially with the flooding issues. Either way after filling the bike to the mid point between the two lines on the sight glass, I took it out again. This time not only did the bike fire right up, it sounded crisper, idled smoother, and even after being warm, the idle would stay at the same point, previously it would slowly get lower until it started to foul/act up. I put about 10 miles on it so far at city speeds to highway speeds. It starts right up when warm, (before it wouldn't), and now the only issue I have is a small occasional backfire when I have a hard downshift/slow down. In conclusion, maybe it was to much oil in the first place causing all the issues? Maybe the needle/seat were leaking also as the new one did seem to help, maybe it was the ultra loose spark plug I found that lowered compression slightly making hard starts? Who knows, all I know is I now have a good running and good looking S40 with only 1600 miles on the clock! 8-) Thanks for all the help and input everyone! Aaron |
|
SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2! YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved. |