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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> top end rebuild /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1405865328 Message started by Jsud04 on 07/20/14 at 07:08:48 |
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Title: top end rebuild Post by Jsud04 on 07/20/14 at 07:08:48 1986 20,000 miles Stock except for tensioner and carb plug Reason for rebuild, po stripped oil galley bolt leaking badly now. Questions... Valves, I am going to either face them and re-use or replace the valves...suggestions, part recommendations...ie springs or just valves and seals... Cylinder, I am replacing rings, when honing the cylinder will I need to up size the piston or can I hone lightly and stay stock... Are there any parts out side of gaskets, seals, rings that you all would recomend replacing? |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Dave on 07/20/14 at 07:47:15 60595F4E4F58591A1E2A0 wrote:
One member has over 120,000 miles on his bike and the cylinder head has never been off.....others have been worn out with far less miles. When the head is off you need to clean your valves and head ports and inspect them....they may not need anything if they are in good shape. If your cylinder and piston are in good shape, you just need a light hone to create a cross hatch pattern that will help the new rings seat. |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by verslagen1 on 07/20/14 at 08:55:08 just fix what you need to fix and slap it back together, 20k is nothing. |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Oldfeller on 07/20/14 at 08:59:43 You are indulging in a bit of overkill .... did you even have high oil consumption or low compression that triggered you go go into the engine to this degree? 20,000 miles and typically you have just now started to use "some" oil on a high speed trip and typically have just started to slightly decline in compression. 50,000+ miles is a more typical mileage for this sort of work. =============== Are you letting some form of "mechanic" sell you all this unnecessary rebuild stuff? Drill and tap a new bolt into the gallery, coat the hole and the threads with silicone sealant and just very lightly tighten it into place. It needs no torque to speak of since it is only sealing off < 30 psi of oil pressure (and the set up sealant around all that length of thread will do that just dandy). |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/20/14 at 09:08:35 Allen drive set screw,grind short,,insert deep,fix outside threads. That will keep shavings out of the oil passage.Then do as above. |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Jsud04 on 07/20/14 at 17:14:34 The oil Gally bolt was stripped but for a while it had just enough bite to hold...now she just spins. My oil usage is what most would see at 70 mph...except at 60 mph fo me. So I figures why not get time inserts in the two long bolts on that side of the engine where the one is stripped and then while I have the head off new valves and seals...or just seals...and my versy tensioner is on hole two so a new chain as well... Then I thought while if I am going that far...why not some rings...pull the jug and have at it....my last compression test was on the lower end, but within spec... Can I replace the rings and hone without removing the jug? I tried making a tap scene that would fit and fix the threads but it failed... |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Jsud04 on 07/20/14 at 17:21:21 I should add that I use oil at 60 mph like most would a 70...but now with this oil leak...it just squirts all over...yea yea have at it... :-? |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Dave on 07/20/14 at 18:31:23 50696F7E7F68692A2E1A0 wrote:
Well.....no. How are you going to get to the piston to replace the rings if you don't take the jug off? :-? |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Jsud04 on 07/21/14 at 05:31:08 Yup yup...stupid question... But that being said since I don't need to take it off to fix my current issue, should I do it anyway since I'm close or, should I just do valve seals, cam chain and inserts... We can't answer that for you....you need to decide that one for yourself and the engine will give you some clues when you take it apart. If the cylinder walls are in good shape without any visible wear - then most likely the rings and piston are good as well. It also depends on how long you intend to keep this bike. If you plan on selling it in the next year of two....taking the cylinder apart probably isn't necessary. If you want to ride it to 100,000 miles plus and you have no idea how the bike was treated in the past.....maybe you should pull the cylinder do some rings since you are so close to having it apart. Dave |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/21/14 at 06:53:49 And you're doing all this WHY,exactly? If it ain't broke,don't fix it. I'll be darned if I'd do all that because of an oil leak at a bolt. |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Jsud04 on 07/21/14 at 06:57:32 That bolt is running through the oil supply line for the cam. So all the oil spurts out...its really an issue that needs an insert to fix. Also that corner of the valve cover will not seal, so its leaking a far amount as well... |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Jsud04 on 07/21/14 at 07:03:01 Dave...the post within a post was trippy.. :o thanks for that. I'll post when I get in there. |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Dave on 07/21/14 at 07:39:04 10292F3E3F28296A6E5A0 wrote:
Ooops.....I musta done something wrong this morning. I guess someone fixed it, as I don't see the post I made this morning. Dave |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Jsud04 on 07/21/14 at 08:47:52 You posted a response within my question above. |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/21/14 at 08:50:16 51686E7F7E69682B2F1B0 wrote:
Aahaa,well,that is a horse of a different color.. Yeah,you're gonna n to deal with that. |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Jsud04 on 07/21/14 at 09:16:31 4A555354494E7F4F7F47555912200 wrote:
Aahaa,well,that is a horse of a different color.. Yeah,you're gonna n to deal with that.[/quote] But would you hit the rings too, or stop with the head? |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/21/14 at 13:25:05 I'd go no further than absolutely necessary. If it will fix with the head on and you have no real,diagnosed problem below,I'd leave it on. IF it Has to come off,turn it upside down,dump gas in and see if it leaks. |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Dave on 07/21/14 at 13:36:42 Or if you want to take the 'Tim the Tool Man" approach....this is the perfect opportunity to bore and apply a silicone carbide treatment to the cylinder so you can install a 95mm Wiseco piston...and.....install a stronger cam grind. You can turn the cylinder thread repair into a $ 800 project....what an opportunity! ;D |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by LANCER on 07/21/14 at 14:37:52 6B505D4A5B574C4A5159544B380 wrote:
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D psst ... let's don't leave out the new performance carburetor ... carb-cam-jug ... a 3 strand cord kind of thing you know ;) |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Jsud04 on 07/21/14 at 16:43:13 Ehhhhhh...I don't control the money and wifey ain't looking cool with all that... I got the motor out. Am I in any danger if I let it sit for a few weeks like that without the mounting bolts clamping it tight...I know they tend to weep a little oil in that state, though I emptied that out. It was a bugger to get out by the by... |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Seaweednh on 07/21/14 at 18:03:10 5A6365747562632024100 wrote:
Set it on one of wife's cookie sheets so you don't make a mess of your work bench :) |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Dave on 07/21/14 at 19:00:39 Just for peace of mind.....put a bolt or threaded rod through the bottom front mount, and snug it up. For some reason that spots likes to leak - but seems to stop once the engine mount bolts are back in place and tightened. |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Drestakil on 07/21/14 at 19:11:29 Have you given any thought to running it through the dishwasher while you have it out? Probably be easier to work on if it's clean ::) |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Jsud04 on 07/23/14 at 16:17:41 Engine pulled from frame Head cover removed Cam shaft removed Stator cover removed. Clutch cover removed Clutch basket removed Driven and drive gears removed Cam chain removed... Question. When removing the cam shaft I slipped and very very small and lightly scratched the outside end of the cam shaft infront of the cam gear...can't really feel it and it is on the very ouside edge maybe 1mm...will this be an issue? |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by LANCER on 07/23/14 at 22:31:12 1B2224353423226165510 wrote:
That will not be an issue if it is as you describe. |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Jsud04 on 07/24/14 at 04:56:27 I'll post a photo of that later. Thanks lancer. Also what of any worry should I have about the jug and gasket being disturbed when I take the whole lot to the shop for inserts in the stripped bolt holes? I am not planning of doing rings unless its a must. |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/24/14 at 05:57:40 Snug the jug to the case for transportation. |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Jsud04 on 07/24/14 at 08:09:26 Cool! And any tricks to getting my timing lined back up? |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by LANCER on 07/24/14 at 08:41:19 734A4C5D5C4B4A090D390 wrote:
Do the smart thing and get new rings and hone the cylinder. It is only about $20-25 for the rings and a little for the hone work. It is worth it. One time I did not do it and when it fired back up the first time it smoked out an area big enough for a Battalion of Marines to sneak by without notice. I got to tear it apart again and redo it the right way as my reward for that short-cut. You can ask Verslagen, he was there with me for the smoke-fest. |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Jsud04 on 07/24/14 at 08:43:33 OK I'm sold. But...I Donno how to hone. Can I drop the jug at a shop? And should I replace the valves at 20000 miles or just do the seals |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by LANCER on 07/24/14 at 08:47:05 665F5948495E5F1C182C0 wrote:
YEP, they might even do it while you wait 5 minutes...just depends on who it is and their attitude & work load. You never can tell. It is really a quick and easy job to do. |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Jsud04 on 07/24/14 at 08:49:45 Everything here is 28 years old |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by LANCER on 07/24/14 at 08:50:52 Where is here ? |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Jsud04 on 07/24/14 at 08:51:12 4C414E4345521217200 wrote:
YEP, they might even do it while you wait 5 minutes...just depends on who it is and their attitude & work load. You never can tell. It is really a quick and easy job to do. [/quote] Will they need the new rings an piston as well? |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Jsud04 on 07/24/14 at 08:54:38 6D606F6264733336010 wrote:
I was intending to say all the seals are 28yrs old so I can see relacin the valve seals but the valves them self's on have 20000 miles on em |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by LANCER on 07/24/14 at 08:55:31 093036272631307377430 wrote:
YEP, they might even do it while you wait 5 minutes...just depends on who it is and their attitude & work load. You never can tell. It is really a quick and easy job to do. [/quote] Will they need the new rings an piston as well? [/quote] As long as the piston is in good shape it does not need to be replaced. Just a good cleaning, new rings and the hone. |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Jsud04 on 07/24/14 at 08:57:16 0C010E0305125257600 wrote:
YEP, they might even do it while you wait 5 minutes...just depends on who it is and their attitude & work load. You never can tell. It is really a quick and easy job to do. [/quote] Will they need the new rings an piston as well? [/quote] As long as the piston is in good shape it does not need to be replaced. Just a good cleaning, new rings and the hone.[/quote] Right but will the shop need them to do the work? |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by LANCER on 07/24/14 at 08:58:31 For doing the hone work on the cylinder, the shop will only need the cylinder. |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Jsud04 on 07/25/14 at 05:10:01 Here are some photos of what I have found. I will get the cam on here later...also I nicked the outside ends of the wheel on the stator side. It was small and I filed the burr down. It doesn't mesh with any other parts so I figure its all good. http://s1278.photobucket.com/user/jsuders04/library/savage It appears my regular oil usage was from oil passing through the head gasket and into the chamber from the HP oil line. |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by LANCER on 07/25/14 at 05:12:45 The photobucket page is not coming up |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Jsud04 on 07/25/14 at 05:14:18 4B46494442551510270 wrote:
How about now? |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by LANCER on 07/25/14 at 05:15:20 That works |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by LANCER on 07/25/14 at 05:22:56 I'm not seeing seeing any damage on the piston or cylinder in these photos, but you need to get them cleaned up and some more direct photo shots of all sides of the piston (top, sides, bottom) and insides of the cylinder. But so far so it's not bad, unless I just missed something. |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Jsud04 on 07/25/14 at 05:33:09 I lack photo skills but the cylinder is very smooth, with and gold tone color and you can still see some original honeing marks. However there are some slight vertical scores on the front and rear sides of the cylinder at the bottom 4th...can't feel them with the finger tips though. Might be from the natural push and pull of the rod and piston. |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by LANCER on 07/25/14 at 05:36:01 5A6365747562632024100 wrote:
Those are typical findings on what I consider to be a good used cylinder. |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/25/14 at 10:22:42 Drag a fingernail from low to the top edge,feel for a ridge where the compression ring changes direction. |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Jsud04 on 07/25/14 at 10:54:36 very very very very slight |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Jsud04 on 07/25/14 at 14:05:50 So, on the photo that shows the top of the jug, I believe its the first one...the oil Gally bolt is the one that's stripped. Any thoughts...thin wall insert? |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by verslagen1 on 07/25/14 at 14:36:39 7E4741505146470400340 wrote:
I think most people put in a helicoil. |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by Jsud04 on 08/29/14 at 19:22:00 So I ended up going a bore up to 96mm... When I put the gasket for the jug to case, should I give the jug and case a thin layer of rtv and a gasket, to ensure its not gonna leak. I cleaned the old paper gasket off with a scrapper, lightly razored it, lightly touched it up with 800 and then 2000 grit. Its as clean as I can get it and my .0025 feeler can't get between the two without a gasket in. |
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Title: Re: top end rebuild Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/29/14 at 21:12:28 It only sees crank case pressure. If I didn't put it in dry I'd oil it,But,dry is my first thought.. |
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