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Message started by BalingWire on 07/04/14 at 06:19:01

Title: Keeping old crippled people out of sight
Post by BalingWire on 07/04/14 at 06:19:01

Want to keep old crippled people out of public sight? Here's how.

A medically prescribed mobility device: Can't drive it on the road, can't drive it on the sidewalk.

Archbold police ticket disabled man for driving scooter on sidewalk
13 ABC Toledo | June 30, 2014
www.13abc.com/story/25908412/archbold-police-ticket-disabled-man-for-driving-scooter-on-sidewalk

Controversy over Archbold man's use of motorized scooter
24 NBC Toledo | July 3, 2014
www.nbc24.com/news/story.aspx?id=1065998

Good grief, that's enough to make the good humor man scowl. >:(

Title: Re: Keeping old crippled people out of sight
Post by oldNslow on 07/04/14 at 06:35:48

Betcha there is more to this story than what is in the news reports. How the hell did the cops know what the possible max speed of that scooter was when they decided to stop the guy ?
They get training on recognizing the different brands of mobility scooters, and memorize the specs? Come on !. There's another reason they decided to f**k with this guy that isn't in the story.

Title: Re: Keeping old crippled people out of sight
Post by MnSpring on 07/04/14 at 13:16:11

Welcome to another facet of the, ’NANNY” State, (Country)

I’ll bet their are lawyers Lining Up,
To Tear apart the City, FOR FREE, on this one !

Let’s see: I ‘CAN” go 70 MPH with a S-40, down Main street,
where the speed limit is 30 MPH.
And If I AM going 30 MPH, do I get a ticket, because I ‘CAN” go 70???

(If it keeps raining out in Mn, I may post a joke on that)

A ‘few’ years ago, a ‘Local Cop’, would see, some 14-15 year olds,
running pure dirt bikes down a street, out on a Co road, to the gravel pit.
Let’s see, No DL, No, Blinkers/Headlights, Driving wrong side of the road.
Yea, LOTS of tickets, ‘Could’ be given.

Local Town fair. Some kids, in the shadows of a building,
Drinking 3.2 beer, smoking Cigs.
“Local” cop, would come, Dump out the beer, Step on the packs of cigarets,
Take the pitcher, and give it back to the local Fireman booth,
(Thus the kids, LOOSING, the .50 Deposit on the glass pitcher)

In a State, (then), where ‘fireworks’, were not allowed.
The ‘Local” cop, walked out on the trestle , taking the packs of ‘Black Cats’,
And throwing them in the river.

A Warm summer night, 10:30 PM, (After Curfew),
a, ‘Local” cop, pulling, (silently) up to a group of boys,
And saying: “Time to go home now, Or do I need to tell, your fathers what you are doing”.

In a December, in Minn, a group of boys, driving down the street,
(in a older brothers Convertible), top down, In Parkas,
With one, ’skiing’ behind the car, on the snow covered streets.
And the, ‘local’, Cop, cruised by, stopped, shook his head, then drove on!

Etc, Etc, Etc !!!!!!!!

The, LAW, hasn’t changed. It is the Police, that have changed. !!!!!!!

Cops, who, ""think"", they have, BIG, Penises,
JUST, because they can write a ’ticket’.

Title: Re: Keeping old crippled people out of sight
Post by BalingWire on 07/04/14 at 15:51:14

Interestingly, I think the cop got this fellow on Ohio law, not local ordinance.

While it says this:

4511.491 Motorized wheelchair operator has rights and duties of pedestrian.
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/4511.491
Every person operating a motorized wheelchair shall have all of the rights and duties applicable to a pedestrian that are contained in this chapter, except those provisions which by their nature can have no application.

It also says this:

4511.01 Traffic laws - operation of motor vehicles definitions. (EEE)
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/4511
"Motorized wheelchair" means any self-propelled vehicle designed for, and used by, a handicapped person and that is incapable of a speed in excess of eight miles per hour.

However, it seems that many motorized wheelchairs are capable of going faster than 8 mph.
http://www.wheelchairs.com/fast.htm

Like MnSpring notes, what does it matter if a vehicle is capable of breaking a speed limit?

I think oldNslow has it nailed....there's something deeper here going on. Small town politics.

Just like Hazard, Kentucky. ;D

The Dukes of Hazzard
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtG0BN4FKZQ
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtG0BN4FKZQ[/media]

Title: Re: Keeping old crippled people out of sight
Post by arteacher on 07/05/14 at 07:01:03

As the husband of someone with MS, I am going to chip in here. When a scooter became necessary for her to get around outside, she was stopped and ticketed by an officer who admitted he was not conversant with the laws regarding operation of a scooter on sidewalks. He came back the next day and tore up the ticket.
That said, I agree with the speed limit of 8 mph for scooters and motorized wheelchairs, and a scooter that goes faster than that has no place on public sidewalks. If you hit someone at 20 mph you could kill them. Handicapped people have the right to the same mobility as non-handicapped people, not the right to roar around at 20 mph on the sidewalk on something as big and heavy as a scooter or motorized chair.

Title: Re: Keeping old crippled people out of sight
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/05/14 at 07:17:22

A scooter CAPABLE of 50MPH is no problem.

Title: Re: Keeping old crippled people out of sight
Post by oldNslow on 07/05/14 at 07:33:36

505B5B525E51504A4B3F0 wrote:

Sorry, but I think that argument is utter nonsense. I doesn't make any difference how fast that scooter is capable of going, only how fast the person operating it is actually driving it. I can buy a motorcycle capable of 150mph +. That doesn't automatically entitle me to a ticket unless I'm riding it that fast when the speed limit is, say, 65. The guy in the news report didn't get ticketed for speeding, he got a ticket because his scooter was theoretically capable of breaking the law. That's bullcrap.

And I don't care what the stupid town ordinance says. It's just another law that creates a crime where no crime actually exists. Most laws in fact fall into that category.

Title: Re: Keeping old crippled people out of sight
Post by arteacher on 07/05/14 at 09:27:39

1B2524283A2627490 wrote:

[quote author=505B5B525E51504A4B3F0 link=1404479941/0#4 date=1404568863]As the husband of someone with MS, I am going to chip in here. When a scooter became necessary for her to get around outside, she was stopped and ticketed by an officer who admitted he was not conversant with the laws regarding operation of a scooter on sidewalks. He came back the next day and tore up the ticket.
That said, I agree with the speed limit of 8 mph for scooters and motorized wheelchairs, and a scooter that goes faster than that has no place on public sidewalks. If you hit someone at 20 mph you could kill them. Handicapped people have the right to the same mobility as non-handicapped people, not the right to roar around at 20 mph on the sidewalk on something as big and heavy as a scooter or motorized chair.

Title: Re: Keeping old crippled people out of sight
Post by oldNslow on 07/05/14 at 10:01:38

Quote:

So what you are saying is that it is OK to drive any vehicle on the sidewalk as long as you don't go over 8 mph? And that 8 mph ordinance is wrong anyway?

I said nothing of the sort. I think what I did say is pretty clear. I have no problem with speed limits, or restricting what kind of vehicles can be driven where. I DO have a problem with giving someone a ticket because what they happen to be driving/riding is CAPABLE of exceeding the speed limit, if they are not actually doing that. Please don't twist what I said in order to bolster an indefensible argument.

If you want to disagree with me ,fine. Just do it on the merits of the discussion, not by deliberately misrepresenting what I said.

Title: Re: Keeping old crippled people out of sight
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/05/14 at 10:02:02

WHAT vehicle matters. A car or motorcycle don't belong on a sidewalk. Be reasonable. Someone who can't walk needs to be able to get around. A wheelchair can do more than 8 MPH. What happens when you need to get across the road? What happens when a guy NEEDS to go faster? Why not have it Able to go faster? Why do people who are losing an argument so often go for STUPID and somehow think they're somehow suddenly gonna win? Adjust Your thinking,get reasonable.

Title: Re: Keeping old crippled people out of sight
Post by thumperclone on 07/05/14 at 10:12:19

how bout bikes on the sidewalk
legal here many do more than 8mph
btw see motor chairs also

Title: Re: Keeping old crippled people out of sight
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/05/14 at 10:27:19

Are we so stupid and disrespectful a people that we must legislate to ensure that nobody is made unhappy with their trip down the sidewalk? Let's paint centerlines and make sure everyone stays on Their side.. If someone is going Fast on a bike, they need to be in the street,if they're just cruising they can use the sidewalk and not have to worry about getting run over. It's really not that hard..

Title: Re: Keeping old crippled people out of sight
Post by arteacher on 07/05/14 at 12:46:14

Some are- I have seen a guy in an electric wheelchair going well over 8 mph on the sidewalk and yelling at people to "get the f**k out of my way", and causing pedestrians to jump out of his way.
Laws protect responsible people from irresponsible people.
BTW, in or city it is illegal to ride a bicycle with a wheel diameter of 20" or more on the sidewalk. The 20" stipulation is so that little kids can still ride their bikes on the sidewalk.

" I have no problem with speed limits, or restricting what kind of vehicles can be driven where."
He was ticketed for driving the wrong type of vehicle on the sidewalk ie one that would go over 8 mph.

Title: Re: Keeping old crippled people out of sight
Post by oldNslow on 07/05/14 at 15:31:25

Quote:

He was ticketed for driving the wrong type of vehicle on the sidewalk ie one that would go over 8 mph.

Exactly. He got a ticket not because he was doing anything wrong, but because he was on a machine that could potentially be driven unsafely even though he was not doing that.

That's the problem. There are two kinds of laws. There are laws that prohibit and prescribe punishment for actions that are actually wrong and cause real harm - murder, rape, arson, robbery etc. - and there are laws that prohibit either actions or inanimate objects because they can potentially be irresponsible, or be used irresponsibly and might casue harm. The ordinance in this discussion is in the second category.

Laws in the second category( like the one we are discussing here) are very often nothing more than nanny state meddling.

Punish the crime, or the person who commits the crime, not the theoretical possibility of a crime that has not actually happened.

If you can't appreciate the difference between the two then I have to respectfully conclude that our views of what is just and reasonable are so fundamentally different as to be irreconcilable.

Quote:

- I have seen a guy in an electric wheelchair going well over 8 mph on the sidewalk and yelling at people to "get the f**k out of my way", and causing pedestrians to jump out of his way.

Some people are a**holes. Even some people with disabilities. That doesn't mean that those of us who are not should be subjected to stupid laws and arbitrary enforcement of those laws in order to deal with the occasional idiot. Or are you of the opinion that anything that you don't personally approve of, find inconvenient, or annoying, or scary, should be illegal ?

Title: Re: Keeping old crippled people out of sight
Post by MnSpring on 07/05/14 at 17:41:16

I am guessing that, EVERY, 49cc moped.
EVERY, Motorcycle. EVERY, Car or truck,
Is, Capable, of going OVER 30 MPH.

So you are driving down, ‘Main Street’,
at 29 MPH, (Where the posted Speed Limit is 30 MPH)

Then A policeman can give you a ticket?
(Because, you, ‘could’, go faster)

I would like to get one of those tickets !!!!!!
Cause then, I would be driving a NEW Cadillac, Esc a lade,
courtesy of the tax payers in that County or City.

Title: Re: Keeping old crippled people out of sight
Post by WebsterMark on 07/05/14 at 18:23:09

Oldnslow; if a person had an extremely high blood alcohol content behind the wheel, but had not had or caused an accident, would you, as the law, leave him alone?

Title: Re: Keeping old crippled people out of sight
Post by MnSpring on 07/05/14 at 18:46:39

Well, In most places, the ‘Law” is, “”Driving””, Under The Influence”.
(The inference it is, ‘driving’, on a public road/place)
So in 99% of the cases, probably, yes.

But here is the difference.
I am at home, I have had a few beers,
the KEYS to the Car, are, IN My Pocket!

I, ‘Could’, drive drunk. (On a Public road),
So can I get a DUI,
In My House, for, ‘Being, Able to’ ?

So the same, I am, 'driving' on a sidewalk,
(With something that is allowed)
at 8 MPH, but what I am 'driving', can go more than 8MPH.
That means I get a, 'Ticket' ?

Title: Re: Keeping old crippled people out of sight
Post by oldNslow on 07/05/14 at 18:48:31

457770616677605F736079120 wrote:

Oldnslow; if a person had an extremely high blood alcohol content behind the wheel, but had not had or caused an accident, would you, as the law, leave him alone?

Totally irrelevant to the situation we're discussing here. Unless your hypothetical drunk gets in a wreck ,or is stopped for some other reason, who would know ? People get away with doing stupid/illegal sh*t all the time. That's unfortunate but that's the way it is. You want a Breathalyzer ignition interlock on every single car , even cars belonging to people that don't drink ?

Title: Re: Keeping old crippled people out of sight
Post by WebsterMark on 07/05/14 at 19:17:57

I thought you were stating your general philosophy of law and not specifically this one sceniro.

Title: Re: Keeping old crippled people out of sight
Post by oldNslow on 07/05/14 at 19:51:31

734146575041566945564F240 wrote:

I thought you were stating your general philosophy of law and not specifically this one sceniro.

Correct. I talked about my opinion about laws in general, and how that opinion applies to this specific situation.

Whether or not someone is able to get away with doing something that is irresponsible/illegal, as in your example of the drunk driver who happens to get away with driving drunk, really has nothing to do with either. Human behavior is what it is. We are awash in stupid laws like the one that this guy on the scooter ran afoul of. The result of that is twofold. Law enforcement resources that could better be used apprehending people that actually do harm to others are squandered on nonsense like this case, and, in the case of police departments or individual officers whose ethical standards are not what they should be, those same laws give them licence to screw with people who ought to be left alone.

Title: Re: Keeping old crippled people out of sight
Post by WebsterMark on 07/05/14 at 20:05:53

I can't argue with that.

Title: Re: Keeping old crippled people out of sight
Post by old_rider on 07/06/14 at 13:28:31

The chair he is using is described as a "mobility chair".... the officer should have "clocked" him, if he was not breaking the sidewalk speed limit he by law...cannot ticket him.
The argument in court will be "who classified the chair as a mobility chair" and not the speed.
And yes, I think they should be able to do about 15mph + or - a few mph.
Here in florida the crosswalks are all about 15 second lights, even across a 4 lane with a WIDE median. A normal healthy person has to do a fast walk up to almost a jog to get across (mainly because folks like to keep turning after the red light goes on) before the light goes green for traffic. And believe you me, traffic starts to flow before most folks are across the street.
Now imagine a person in an electric chair going a mere 8mph.... who can't jog across.
And NO they will not change the duration of the crosswalk light because it would impede traffic flow.