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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1402528876 Message started by shovelbum87 on 06/11/14 at 16:21:16 |
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Title: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by shovelbum87 on 06/11/14 at 16:21:16 Hi all, Im having trouble, again... here is what I am looking at; Last summer took the bike for a ride stopped for coffee shut it off and sat had a coffee chilled out, hopped on and went to start it and there is nothing, no crank no nothing, we attempt to push start her and after having the rear wheel locked up on us and we looked foolish for a half of an hour this very kind man comes over and offers to lend us a set of jumper cables so we try it and she fires up and dies out if the throttle isn't at about half... long story short we get it home and call it a day. So we charge the battery (I assume that I left the switch on park) put it back in and she cranks a couple times then nothing, put a jump pack on it it fires and runs. shut it down try again, cranks acouple times and then the starter solenoid clicks. I start chasing the wires off the regulator/rectifier and find that the wires out of the stator are shot, insulation is gone and they are shorting out, so I pull the cover off solder on new wires and splice them in to the harness. try to start it fires right up! but after about 5 min of running the pipe is bright red due to too much fuel from a carb that has a slight needle problem, I purchase a carb from Uriah, put it on it runs great!!! but same deal if you put a jump pack on it it will start but the battery isn't holding a charge I think, grab a battery put it in and now all she does is crank and crank and crank, will not fire. Has spark, has fuel and I am at a loss of what the heck ails her. Any input would be greatly appreciated! 1987 savage raptor pet, no other mods |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by Steddy58 on 06/11/14 at 16:44:03 Is it getting petrol to the cylinder ? Does the spark plug smell of gas after you've tried starting it - how big is the spark ? If its not a nice big kick up the ass spark you may have problems getting it started. Is the valve stuck open so theres no compression? many things to ponder |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by shovelbum87 on 06/11/14 at 16:45:14 Had a week spark, put a coil on it, now has a nice big blue spark, carb was recently rebuilt and is putting fuel in the cyl |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by Steddy58 on 06/11/14 at 16:47:34 Compression? |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by shovelbum87 on 06/11/14 at 16:51:50 Has compression, oil does not smell like gas so I don't think it's gas washed |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by humblegeo on 06/11/14 at 16:51:55 I may run into the same sort of problem with my project bike, don't know yet but for future reference what should the compression be on the 650? I have a good gauge set up. I've heard just a good general rule of thumb is anything less than 100 and your wasting your time trying to start it. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by shovelbum87 on 06/11/14 at 16:54:50 I think it should be 140-200 but don't quote me |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by S-P on 06/11/14 at 16:59:16 Try starter fluid. A nice 1-2 second blast into the air filter, wait a few seconds for the fluid to turn to vapor then hit the starter. I had starting issues with mine after I did some work on the carb. I had to use starter fluid on it for a couple weeks then the issue miraculously just cleared up. No clue why... |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by Steddy58 on 06/11/14 at 16:59:23 Not too sure what best comp is humblegeo - I had a valve stick open and when I pushed the decomp arm down with a screwdriver started right away. Is the big blue spark at plug or from bare ht lead shovelbum87 - I had it once where the spark from coil was great but after I put the suppressor cap and plug on the spark wouldn't have worried a mouse - my mate doesn't use suppressor caps at all just connects plug to ht lead with a piece of brass. +1 for above suggestion from S-P |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by oldNslow on 06/11/14 at 17:01:04 Quote:
If the gas is what was in the tank last summer I'd try filling it up with fresh gas before I started worrying about compression. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by shovelbum87 on 06/11/14 at 17:02:19 The resistor in the cap was probably junk, I put a new one in just I case. Big blue spark at the plug. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by shovelbum87 on 06/11/14 at 17:02:59 Fresh gas, new filter too |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by shovelbum87 on 06/11/14 at 17:03:56 Also does not run w starter fluid |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by S-P on 06/11/14 at 17:04:15 7962657C6F66687F67323D0A0 wrote:
OOPS... if you have a Raptor, remove the inline filter. Some of us have had problems with an inline filter blocking gas flow. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by shovelbum87 on 06/11/14 at 17:07:18 It should have fired on starting fluid though, I still will pull the filter and see if that changes anything |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by S-P on 06/11/14 at 17:09:15 2A31362F3C353B2C34616E590 wrote:
Possibly... I'd try pulling the filter and starter fluid again. Eliminate both gas starvation and flooding. Are you using the choke? |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by Steddy58 on 06/11/14 at 17:17:34 I will have to consult my oracle on this one shovelbum87 more thinking power needed :) |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by shovelbum87 on 06/11/14 at 17:19:30 I have tried with and without choke |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by Serowbot on 06/11/14 at 17:38:31 Not that it's the problem, but... bypass both the clutch and sidestand cut-outs... just to be sure... You can reconnect once you get it figured out if you want... |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by humblegeo on 06/11/14 at 17:47:36 Just throwing this out there. If your battery is not spinning it over real good then you may not be making the compression you need to be able to fire. Spraying that starter fluid right into the carburetor throat sure seems like it should have sputtered popped backfired something. I had a vs1400 that was similar to your issue. I had to choke it all the way till it fired then it would die, then choke off and it would fire but just barely and after a couple minutes at idle it would then run perfect but very very difficult to initially start. I also replaced the starter relay. Even though I was getting a good solid 12 volts to the relay coil, the heavy duty relay contacts were so worn and pitted I guess that they wouldn't energize the starter. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by shovelbum87 on 06/11/14 at 18:06:45 3E283F223A2F22394D0 wrote:
Both are bypassed, anyone thinking igniter box? Could it have been shorted out when the stator wires crossed? Also slightly unusual but when it was running I took a reading of juice going back to the batt at 15.7 should I be concerned at that I suck at electrical work |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by Serowbot on 06/11/14 at 18:13:53 I think that's too high... 14.4v is where it should be... Over 14.7 will start causing problems... I think that points to a rectifier problem... |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by shovelbum87 on 06/11/14 at 18:15:17 Tried two different rectifiers bot read the same within .2v :-[ |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by Serowbot on 06/11/14 at 18:26:42 That's odd,.. I was told that reading over 15v means it's dying... Is your battery stone dead?... :-?... Rectifier voltage will be higher going to a dead battery, but I still don't think it should be over 15v... |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by oldNslow on 06/11/14 at 19:02:53 Quote:
If it was a bad igniter I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be getting a spark. Maybe the decompression solenoid is stuck and the cable is pulling on the lever. Or maybe the cable is just dry/frayed and is stuck. If it's holding the exhaust valves open the bike won't start. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1169356966 |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by verslagen1 on 06/11/14 at 19:13:32 Your 1st problem is the battery, get a new 1. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by oldNslow on 06/11/14 at 19:21:33 776473726D6066646F30010 wrote:
Quote:
I think she already did that. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by verslagen1 on 06/11/14 at 19:25:15 OK didn't see that. I think it is flooded. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by Seaweednh on 06/11/14 at 19:33:38 If you have good fuel, compression and a good spark, I would check the timing, clean out the fuel bowl and also blow out the jets with an air gun. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by verslagen1 on 06/11/14 at 21:16:52 4A7C786E7C7C7D7771190 wrote:
loaded question... how do check the timing? answer... you can't, either it sparks at the right time or it don't. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by verslagen1 on 06/11/14 at 21:19:53 5B6564687A6667090 wrote:
+1 Quote:
true, but it will clatter. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by verslagen1 on 06/11/14 at 21:21:37 5345524F57424F54200 wrote:
The thing here is that the starter is spinning... so both safeties are ok. if no spin then 1 or both are bad. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by verslagen1 on 06/11/14 at 21:23:39 If you are still stuck, start from square 1 and reconfirm everything. spark, gas, air. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by shovelbum87 on 06/12/14 at 02:05:39 746770716E6365676C33020 wrote:
It's a brand new battery |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by shovelbum87 on 06/12/14 at 02:11:55 Now like I said I suck at electrical but could the ignitor still send a signal to the coil just not at the right time? It seems like a timing issue but I don't know how I could check that it's not like it's adjustable. I'm so lost, any one want to buy a very pretty boat anchor? I will start back at the beginning and triple check everything |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by jcstokes on 06/12/14 at 02:21:21 When the stator wires crossed and shorted, is there any possibility that the polarity was reversed? |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by shovelbum87 on 06/12/14 at 02:30:38 3C352522393D3325560 wrote:
I haven't a clue, any idea what to do to check? They looked like they had been that way for a while |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by Seaweednh on 06/12/14 at 03:35:04 716275746B6660626936070 wrote:
loaded question... how do check the timing? answer... you can't, either it sparks at the right time or it don't.[/quote] Spark at the right time and the valve must open and close at the right time too. One with out the other and the engine will run poorly or not at all. I worked on a non-motorcycle engine that ran well, and then didn't and then ran well again. This went on for some time and the exhaust pipe would get cherry red. Pulled the flywheel to find the drift key was sheared. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by shovelbum87 on 06/12/14 at 04:18:44 The pipe was cherry due to the sticky needle on my old carb, I replaced it with a much nnewer rebuilt one, cured the excessively rich problem |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/12/14 at 08:54:03 Having spark when the plug is out & laying against the block is one thing, having spark when the starter is pulling against compression is another. To KNOW youve got spark, leave the plug in, pull the wire & stick another plug in it & then test. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by Steve H on 06/12/14 at 16:18:51 If you haven't changed the plug, you might have one of those rare ones that fires just fine but does nothing under compression. I've only had a couple of those in my life and they are usually a pain...you take it out and check it...fine...put it back and start hunting something else. Finally, you just put something else in there for the heck of it and it starts right up. Not saying that's your problem, just another something to think about. Hope you get it fixed soon. It's a shame to miss out on good riding weather cause it won't run. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by humblegeo on 06/12/14 at 19:09:13 I would think about investing in a compression test gauge setup which is a nice tool to have when trouble shooting these type starting issues. I got Mine from O'Reilly Auto Supply. Seems like it was $30-35. You may already have one though. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by S-P on 06/12/14 at 20:00:20 At some point maybe it just makes sense to take it to a mechanic and have them troubleshoot the wiring and starting system. I've chased electrical issues on cars for days/weeks and had a shop find the problem in a half hour for 50 bucks. It's like me with construction... people ask me all the time in the drywall aisle at Home Depot "How do you patch a hole?". Well, I have 33 years of experience and there's just some things you can't teach someone in 10 minutes. I used to tell my employees: There's a difference between 30 years of experience and one year of experience 30 times. ;) |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by shovelbum87 on 06/14/14 at 18:29:13 Alright here's the update, borrowed a friends compression tester to verify compression is within 145-200 psi we have 60, crap! Let's hope it's gas washed, pour some mystery oil in the plug hole, cranks over and runs beauty! Awesome! Head to the parts store to grab some oil so I can change the oil and get the diluted crap out of it. Come back and try it again cranks and cranks and cranks, no fire. Well maybe it's really diluted, I change the oil and adjust the valves for the heck of it. It cranks and cranks and cranks. Now I'm thinking rings? It had sat for over ten years before I got it and I suspect that the cyl wall may have rusted and when I got it last year I only put 300 miles on it and that may have worn the rust off and now it's only holding good compression when I put oil on top of the cyl. :'( :-/ |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by Dave on 06/14/14 at 18:43:00 I have never seen any running engine suddenly develop a lack of compression due to worn out rings or a bad cylinder....unless it was run low on oil and scored. When the cylinder or rings are worn it normally develops an oil burning problem long before it develops a compression problem. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by shovelbum87 on 06/14/14 at 18:53:06 What else could it be? It runs really good when I oils the cyl and once it burns the mystery oil off it starts to run worse and if I leave it running for a while longer it starts to "bong" while running. Shut it off and start again and it just cranks and cranks |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by oldNslow on 06/14/14 at 19:03:52 I think you've got a broken ring. It's not springing out against the cylinder wall, hence the low compression. The oil you pour in there makes a temporary seal till it burns off. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by shovelbum87 on 06/14/14 at 19:07:25 That's what I thought, at least someone else comes to the same conclusion. Now that I feel validated I will pull it out and pull the jug. :P |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by humblegeo on 06/15/14 at 06:54:29 Before you do a complete top end job you might want to try something semi easy just in case the piston rings are stuck in the piston grouve. Remove spark plug and pour some marvel mystery oil on top of piston and let it set for a few days. Or maybe bp blaster or transmission fluid. Ive used this stuff in the past to try and free up a stuck piston. Never had any luck doing that but it might be worth a try before tearing it all apart? |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by shovelbum87 on 06/15/14 at 16:25:26 It's not that hard to tear down so I would rather just bite the bullet and go for it. I'm fairly confident that a ring snapped due to the sudden loss of compression, rings and gaskets are cheap any way |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by Dave on 06/16/14 at 04:04:31 Gaskets aren't all that cheap....or rings either. Now this is the perfect opportunity to install a Wiseco piston! ;D |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by shovelbum87 on 06/16/14 at 04:30:21 What do you mean? Rings are only 40 bucks? I would love to do a big bore too but I just had to put an engine in my truck a couple weeks ago so yeah we may just trow a band aide on it cause that kinda took some of my play money away :-[ |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by shovelbum87 on 06/16/14 at 10:54:47 So I have the day off because I had plans on making it to Laconia bike week today so instead I pulled the engine just to realize I can't lift it out on my own >:( have to wait till my bf gets home and make him do it. I will update you all once I know what the sudden loss of compression is |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/16/14 at 17:04:43 Some folks get it all busted loose, lay the bike on its side, pull the last stuff out & stand it up, leavin the lump on the floor.. Prolly wanna dump oil,, pull the tank, Im sure its off anyway,, |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by shovelbum87 on 06/17/14 at 02:13:52 I like to keep my bikes staring up haha, I got creative and pulled it on my own |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/17/14 at 06:14:03 Really? You rigged up some ropes or what? Im old & busted up so I wouldnt be tryin it alone any more, but I appreciate those who do.. Good on yaz! |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by Dave on 06/17/14 at 06:22:33 If it is a broken ring......what would have allowed (or caused) it to break? Is the ring groove worn, has the engine been lugged around too much, pinging/detonation? I have never had a piston ring break in anything I own, or in any lawn mower, chain saw, motorcycle or car I have worked on....so I have no experience in this area. If the ring does break..... I suppose it can damage the ring groove in the piston...or scratch the cylinder? |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by WD on 06/17/14 at 07:19:32 The 218 flathead in my 49 Dodge has broken rings in 3 of 6 cylinders. Age, engine has been in place since either 1958 or 1963 after the factory engine snapped its crankshaft. A few years of hard use as a truck, followed by sitting in the barn from 1974 to 1994, then being driven for a couple months, then sitting outdoors from 1994 to current... rings stick in the bore and even with a good ATF soaking can snap. Cast iron block, aluminum pistons, steel rings... galvanic corrosion. Broken rings can cause piston damage or bore damage. Usually they just flop around and won't hold compression. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/17/14 at 14:53:38 Ive never seen it but have been told that if someone just babies an engine around & it gets old & builds a ring on the inside of the cylinder wall where the compression ring stops & changes direction & someone else comes along & winds it up tight, that the compression ring can slap the built up ring at the top of the cylinder & get busted. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by shovelbum87 on 06/17/14 at 16:18:01 I'm hopeful for a nice easy fix but I fully expect to see a scored cylinder wall and the sad realization that the fix will cost more than the bike cost me, it did sit from 1991 till last summer outside so who knows how bad it could be :-[ but here's to hope :P |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by Seaweednh on 06/17/14 at 19:29:45 081711160B0C3D0D3D05171B50620 wrote:
It doesn't matter whether you baby the engine or not. Normal where will leave a ridge at the top of the cylinder. If you get to much play in the wrist pin or crank bearing the piston comes up and the ring hits the ridge and snaps. In a car engine where the piston is removed or installed from the top, you need to use a cylinder "ridge reamer" so you don't break the rings. Not sure what part of NH you are from but ask around about a good automotive machine shop. Apparently the one I use to use a lot in Manchester is no longer there. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by shovelbum87 on 06/26/14 at 16:06:48 She's all apart, parts came in yesterday ;D |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by Dave on 06/27/14 at 04:33:28 OK....so the suspense is killing us. Broken ring, scored cylinder, valves.....what is it? Dave |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by shovelbum87 on 06/27/14 at 09:43:13 Rings seem to have lost there spring? Not confident but there is no other answer :o :-? |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by Serowbot on 06/27/14 at 10:17:40 Okay,.. how many people here have their head tilted to the left right now?... ;D ;D ;D... |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by Dave on 06/27/14 at 10:33:44 Ouch......My neck! Here.....this is better! |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by shovelbum87 on 06/27/14 at 15:42:14 7462756870656873070 wrote:
What did I do? :-/ |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by shovelbum87 on 06/28/14 at 18:13:02 Well I put rings in her this morning, and she ran like she has never run before! :D |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by Dave on 06/29/14 at 03:03:02 NEVER argue with a woman holding a torque wrench or a spray gun! Or that can lift a 100+ pound engine into the frame! You go girl! ;) |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by shovelbum87 on 06/29/14 at 04:59:27 The pic is actually hiding the fact that there is a ramp under the motor so I just had to transfer it from there to the frame. I'm not that strong, work smarter not harder! |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by LANCER on 07/09/15 at 10:01:56 Hey, did you get it all back together ? Is it running ? I hope you were not abducted by the aliens ! |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/09/15 at 10:11:01 2833342D3E37392E36636C5B0 wrote:
The pic kept you from seeing the words.. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by LANCER on 07/09/15 at 11:45:23 716E686F72754474447C6E62291B0 wrote:
The pic kept you from seeing the words..[/quote] Nope, saw the words along with the pic. I was just wondering what happened to her ? Did she drop off the planet ? It did not seem like her to just abruptly stop. She had been frequent up until that last post and then ... ? ? |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/09/15 at 13:47:53 I gotcha, I hope the cylinder was prepped right and she's busy breaking it in. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by shovelbum87 on 07/11/15 at 16:42:57 Hello gents! Alas my girl is still driving me crazy! After the rebuild she ran well however it does not charge properly. It caused great anger and frustration to me so I have not touched the bike in a year. After 15 rides on her after all of the work start to finish it only made 3 successful rides. I just don't know if I will fix her or just throw in The towel on it. Terribly sorry for disappearing like that! I am still alive! Haha hopefully you are all well and on two wheels unlike myself. |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by Art Webb on 07/12/15 at 07:52:20 I did pretty much the same thing after the 2nd flat in a couple months (stoopid inner tubes) but eventually returned to the S40 Still think inner tubes are stoopid on a 'modern' bike |
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Title: Re: HELP!! Will not run, does crank, has spark Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/12/15 at 19:33:47 Not charging can be a lot of things. And, there are people here who can walk you through it. I don't wanna see you give up. |
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