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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> Gun control again /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1400185688 Message started by verslagen1 on 05/15/14 at 13:28:08 |
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Title: Gun control again Post by verslagen1 on 05/15/14 at 13:28:08 in the news... https://news.yahoo.com/gun-owner-case-gun-control-094500740--politics.html Looks like Holder wants smart guns to compensate for stupid owners. http://www.thedailyjournal.com/article/20140515/OPINION01/305150003/NJ-s-smart-gun-law-wrong-path-safety?nclick_check=1 |
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Title: Re: Gun control again Post by shorty on 05/15/14 at 17:51:46 the NRA has the most intelligent answer for curbing gun violence: enforce the gun laws already on the books, stop letting predators out of jail |
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Title: Re: Gun control again Post by Serowbot on 05/15/14 at 17:59:55 I agree,.. both sides should be more reasonable and work towards sensible gun laws... I don't think misdemeanour crimes should warrant gun confiscation or restrictions... I would think - limits on mag capacity is reasonable... (we already have that with shotguns)... 10 shot max... - Better, faster, backgrounds checks,... - ...no more straw man purchases... - Requiring all open and concealed carry weapons to be registered... - A ban on home storage of full-auto... (you can still own, and use at a range, but they would be kept under lock and key at a police depot or licensed range)... I'd also be for age limits and perhaps graduated licensing for 110hp crotch rockets... Maybe a 140mph limiters... (even 120mph)... (there is no public road where those speeds are at all safe).. ...and no more pants hanging below yer' butts... (that's just fugly, and maybe unsanitary)... :-[... Okay,... I'm prepared to be clobbered... ;D ;D ;D... |
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Title: Re: Gun control again Post by raydawg on 05/15/14 at 18:40:14 Buddy I don't have any real issues with what you say, but that would only work in a perfect world, sorry :( We have laws, they were implemented to punish and curb offenders, what has changed that these laws don't work? My guess is they are not enforced because of ?????? all sorts of reasons, why? My biggest fear is I don't ANY government and tyranny ([ch712]t[ch618]r[ch601]n[ch618]) — n , pl -nies 1. a. government by a tyrant or tyrants; despotism b. similarly oppressive and unjust government by more than one person 2. arbitrary, unreasonable, or despotic behaviour or use of authority: the teacher's tyranny 3. any harsh discipline or oppression: the tyranny of the clock 4. a political unit ruled by a tyrant 5. (esp in ancient Greece) government by a usurper 6. a tyrannical act |
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Title: Re: Gun control again Post by verslagen1 on 05/15/14 at 20:25:54 laws only work when you have law abiding citizens. what can we do to prevent guns getting into the hands of criminals or those about to be? name something and cite an example gun lock/safe... sandy hook, no access to unsecured weapons. gun lock/safe would be issued with each gun. recorder will record time out of lock/safe and will be reviewed on timely basis with LEO/ATF agent. |
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Title: Re: Gun control again Post by Serowbot on 05/15/14 at 22:05:52 My buddie's dad,... had a collection of around 600 guns and rifles... they were stolen... The police recovered a couple... just a couple... I would bet, many of them went into hands you wouldn't want them in... I don't know the solution,... but in a land with so many guns... they are bound to get into hands that shouldn't have them... The first step to a solution, is to admit that there is a problem... We do have a lot of gun related crimes, deaths, and accidents... We should all admit that... Nothing will ever prevent them all... ... but, some reasonable steps could make them less... I did give a few suggestions,... but, better than me, arguing for my view... I think it would be better to hear a few ideas from more ardent gun supporters... Unless,.. we are going to do the "slippery slope" argument... to give an inch, is to give a mile... This is absurd... As you all must admit... there are already many laws and regulations on guns and many other things... it's just that the ones for guns, don't seem to be the right ones... Some laws... are bad laws... some are good, but unenforceable... some exist, but don't have the funding to enforce... some, may not have adequate punishment... Is anyone on the Right, willing to put forth any change that might aid in reducing gun deaths?... PS... I am a gun owner... multiple in fact... and have shot many 10's of thousand rounds over several decades... So I'm not an a'fearedypants of guns , Liberal... I'm a Liberal gun owner... I don't measure my manhood, by the number or size of my bullets... ...but, I do have several defensive weapons, and few for plinking fun... I believe I am a reasonable gun owner, comparable to many Conservative gun owners... |
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Title: Re: Gun control again Post by oldNslow on 05/16/14 at 05:38:32 Quote:
For starters try this: Profiling. Yeah , I know. Dirty word in our PC world. But we already know who the perpetrators, and the victims, of most of the gun violence in this country are. And before someone jumps on me about Lanza, Holmes etc. go look at the numbers - all the numbers - the high profile mass murders that the media loves so much are actually abarrations and represent a tiny percentage of gun deaths nationwide. Every 15 - 20 year old ghetto rat in the city where I live, and where I worked for 30 years, has a handgun stuffed in his pocket or in his waistband, and an awful lot of those guys have no hesitation about pulling it out and blasting away. Mostly they wind up killing each other, and the media dosen't much care. But they are still dead - killed by guns, and often enough, they take out an innocent bystander or two. Figure out a way to get those guns out of every inner city and you will cut the gun deaths in this country by more than half. When Bloomberg was mayor of NYC he agressivly pursued a program called "Stop and Frisk" where the cops were encouraged to stop anyone who the thought looked suspicious, and check them for guns or dope. Confiscate the gun and , and this is the most important part, prosecute the guy for unlawful posession, which in NYC ( actually in all of NY, is a felony with a mandatory prison sentence). Racist? Probably. Unconstitutional. Yeah, probably. But it's been a long time since law enforcement in this country worried much about the constitution. "Stop and frisk" worked. Gun violence in NYC went down dramatically. So start with that. Then come talk to me about enforcing/creating laws that only apply to gun owners like me who have never, ever, been part of the problem. Google the so- called NY SAFE act if you want an example of the stupid usless legislation I'm talking about. And just for the record. I'm no fan of ex -Mayor Bloomberg. In fact I think he's a total Di*khead. But even a Di*khead can get something right once in a while. |
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Title: Re: Gun control again Post by shorty on 05/16/14 at 05:48:15 just a couple of existing gun laws: all gun sales require background check (form 4473) mental health affidavit for all gun sales (form 4473) minimum age requirements (form 4473) no multiple handgun purchases w/o faxing NTC (form 3310) all gun sales (new & used) recorded & kept 20yrs. no shortened rifles or shotguns no full auto no silencers no incendiary ammo no armor piercing ammo no explosive ammo some stats: over 99% of gun crimes committed by repeat offender. over 99% of gun crimes committed w/handgun. legal gun owners commit less than 1% of gun crimes. less than 6 shots fired in over 99% of gun crimes. FL crime fell drastically after allowing CC licensing. most states adopted Conceal Carry licensing standards. licensed Conceal Carry holders commit less than 0.1% of gun crimes. Horrific gun crimes represent less than 0.1% of gun crimes. *The Gun Control Act of 1968 was ground breaking in it's restrictions & caused zero drop in gun crime. Congressional analysts concluded judiciary & penal system need improvement for public safety. *The above info can be found @ ATF.gov & FL dept of Law Enforcement |
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Title: Re: Gun control again Post by Paraquat on 05/16/14 at 06:09:23 2234233E26333E25510 wrote:
I'm curious as to why? There have only ever been 2 crimes where a legally owned fully automatic weapon was used. Since 1934. 42514647585553515A05340 wrote:
Lanza killed his mother with a knife in order to obtain her rifle (which we still do not know if it was properly secured or not). If you had a law against killing people he would not have illegally obtained the rifle in the first place. --Steve |
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Title: Re: Gun control again Post by WebsterMark on 05/16/14 at 06:17:08 OK.... so what's the speed of dark? Posts: 16211 Tucson Az Gender: male Re: Gun control again Reply #2 - Yesterday at 17:59:55 Alert Board Moderator about this Post! Quote I agree,.. both sides should be more reasonable and work towards sensible gun laws... I don't think misdemeanour crimes should warrant gun confiscation or restrictions... I would think - limits on mag capacity is reasonable... (we already have that with shotguns)... 10 shot max... no, I like my 30 clip on .22 I shouldn't have to give that up because of a few shootings a year. - Better, faster, backgrounds checks,... Agreed, but let's decide on what a background check consist of. Taking fingerprints? No, why should the feds have my fingerprints if I did not commit a crime? - ...no more straw man purchases... I think that's already illegal isn't it?- Requiring all open and concealed carry weapons to be registered... what do you mean open and concealed carry weapons? definition. - A ban on home storage of full-auto... (you can still own, and use at a range, but they would be kept under lock and key at a police depot or licensed range)... no way.... no how. It's not yours if it ain't at your house. |
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Title: Re: Gun control again Post by Dane Allen on 05/16/14 at 09:40:24 The gun violence of today is just a symptom of a greater problem that is the intentional decaying of society. People alive before me removed morality from schools, minorities are warehoused in ghettoes and brought out every two to four years to vote Democrat and then go back to their hovels. Abortion is used as a population control rather than family planning and abstinance because they avoid people making their own decisions. This focus on gun violence ignores all the other violence that occurs in the same place - what about all the stabbings, beatings and such that happen alongside gun violence. Giving someone greter power over my day-to-day life in the name of safety where no real safety is created, just the reverse, is not any kind of solution. You wanna stop violence in ghettoes then give those people a proper education, a strong moral foundation and gut the federal government. |
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Title: Re: Gun control again Post by WD on 05/16/14 at 09:46:18 7B69667B67666D6F080 wrote:
Updated and fixed. We have an AOW .410 handgun at the farm, it can't legally leave the premise. You can hunt deer in TN with silencer equipped firearms as long as you have the state and federal licenses for it on you. We use armor piercing rounds on feral hogs, head shots, destroys no edible meat. Order them by the 1000 round case. |
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Title: Re: Gun control again Post by verslagen1 on 05/16/14 at 10:56:20 Let's keep on subject, please. This is not a discussion about the 2nd amendment. Thanks shorty for the stat's laws only work what can we do to prevent guns getting into the hands of criminals? It seems that we can't. The only thing we can currently do is dissuade them from using it by being armed ourselves. |
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Title: Re: Gun control again Post by Pine on 05/16/14 at 14:13:25 42514647585553515A05340 wrote:
^^^^ this!! Being a "free" people requires that each person to be responsible for their own security, ie to be armed. The alternative is ... well is everything else. I would love to see gun crimes go down... go to zero, but not at the expense of being free to protect myself. There are really only two deterrents to gun crime: 1) fear of the victim ( to out gun you) 2) fear of the law enforcement, and criminal courts to find you/lock you up I know from personal experience that #2 has failed, and is in constant failure, and has been for a long time. If what I propose is true.. then an "fixes" should lie with #2 and NOT with #1. Sri and I already had this discussion here.. and I think we came to an understanding if not an outright agreement. (for those that dont know Sri was very anti-gun and rather liberal, but we agreed on many issues) Sri's point was that gun crimes in Detroit or Chicago were completely out of control, and he advocated nearly a ban. Yet I pointed out that here in the south guns were common and really did not seem to be an issue. If I recall right, we agreed that, culture and population density seemed to hold a larger causation then lack of laws. I think we can see it, large cities are pushing hard to ban guns or reduce access to them, while rural states see no need for such encroachments. I dont think there is a simple answer, beyond lowering population density and addressing cultural norms that popularize and re-enforce the crime and inhumanity seen in big cities. Given all the above I do NOT see a need for national change on gun laws. I do see a need for local areas to be allowed to address their issue locally, and to whatever extent they can get the voting public to accept. Guns are being stolen in MS in record numbers... mostly from wildlife services trucks ( 3 AR-15's this year). But crimes are not being committed (here) with them.. instead they are being sold .. yup up north in the big cities. |
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Title: Re: Gun control again Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/17/14 at 09:37:12 Lets play a little game. YOure a bad guy. YOu have a gun you bought from another bad guy. He stole it & will sell it to you for $50.00. Now, youre armed. You can go to a town where guns are illegal or to a town where citizens are required to have a gun. Youre planning on making $$$ by pulling home invasion robberies. Which town do you go to? If you answered the town where guns are illegal, youre intelligent enough to realize that guns in the hands of good people are the best answer to guns in the hands of bad people. The 2nd amendment isnt about hunting or self defense. When the Big C was written, both of those issues werent issues. It was considered as natural as breathing to kill things to eat. There werent many grocery stores with packages of meat in a cooler. Self defense? There werent police stations & 911. There werent cop cars roaming the streets,, If you got attacked, you either defended yourself or got hurt/killed.. They didnt see a need to discuss hunting & self defense. The second amendment is about the power of the people to ALways be armed in order to be able to throw off a tyrannic government, |
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Title: Re: Gun control again Post by Serowbot on 05/17/14 at 10:36:24 But,.. in the town with no guns,.. you aren't so jumpy... so, you aren't ready to blow someone's head off if you hear a noise... People may loose a couple of things, and get new one's from insurance, but nobody died... In the town with guns,... a father is scraping his child's blood off the kitchen wall... because the burglar heard him getting some milk... Overly dramatic, I know... but the basic point is, violence begets violence... We do have an incredibly high number of shooting deaths compared to other counties.. and this is the reason... Do you value lives more than stuff?... No to mention that, statistically, a gun in a home is much more likely to kill a family member than a criminal... Just arguing the the opposing view here... don't jump down my throat.. But, facts are facts, and you are safer in most other civilized countries without so many guns, than here, where we have them... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Gun control again Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/17/14 at 21:53:54 No to mention that, statistically, a gun in a home is much more likely to kill a family member than a criminal... Id like to see that proven. What our media does is make tons of noise about guns & deaths. What they dont do is accurately report the times when a citizen thwarts violence by having a gun. In fact, Id bet that fewer than 20% of those events even get reported to the cops. I know I wouldnt call them & tell them if I stopped a thug by pointing a gun at him.,. The media is complicit in molding the attitudes of the people against guns. Eric Holder says do it.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIcSLhGvaTE Use schools to brainwash the kids. Ive listened to parents call in & read what their kids are being taught about the 2nd amendment. Its shocking & its FAR from what the 2nd amendment says. Statistics have demonstrated that crime drops when the people start carrying guns. I remember when car jacking was all the rage. In La. there were people being killed almost every day. Finally the Governor said it was time for the people to defend themselves. Took about 2 weeks for the game to end. A good number of would be car jackers died, gut shot, writhing & screaming & bleeding out,, you know, you open a car door & someone is sitting there with a gun,, the gut is where the bullet goes.. You have an opinion, I say its based in what you want to believe. The world you would have is nice, it just isnt reality,.Decriminalize drugs & we will see a huge drop in violent crime, Bring back jobs & give people a shot at a decent future & crime will drop,, This is no accident. We have been de-industrialized & are being used as the strong arm of the thugs( Global Elite). Our military is being used to accomplish their ends.. We are being sunk economically. All those trade agreements that were supposed to "level the playing field"?,, Yea, that sounded good, BUT, they werent meant to raise everyone UP to our standard of living. They were meant to take us down, a LOT,, & Maybe bring them up, SOME.. Think Im wrong? Look at the results. Think those were "Unintended consequences"? Then how is I saw what was coming before Nafta was signed into law? Im not smarter than the lawmakers,, anyone could see what Nafta would do.,Well,, those who looked AT it instead of listened to what we were told about it,, we could,, Just wait till this new one goes thru. Mr TRansparent wont even let all of Congress see it,, Its gonna finish us off,, Thats why the goobs need the guns, cause our economy isnt ruined, YET.. |
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Title: Re: Gun control again Post by shorty on 05/20/14 at 16:48:08 crime drops when citizens are armed, proven overwhelmingly in FL when they started issuing conceal carry permits to qualifying citizens. State after state followed Florida's lead BECAUSE crime drops. crime increased drastically in england when they rounded-up home owner's rifles.. this notion that we are safer unarmed is the biggest pile of horse hockey.. so if a burglar breaks into your home you are safer waiting helplessly in a closet for the cops to arrive LONG after the burglar has left? come on folks, think about what CBS is telling you, your guts will tell you the truth.. a gun is nothing more than a tool, quit attaching a personality to a simple tool please and grow a pair :o |
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Title: Re: Gun control again Post by ihasabike on 05/20/14 at 19:09:09 Personally, I think the child proof gun is an important women's issue, and that if gun rights activists were smart, they would support the development of childproof guns as a measure to assuage the concerns of mothers as well as fathers. I don't, however, think that childproof guns have to be criminal proof. A simple mechanical safety that is defeatable by an adult, but mot a child, is what I'm looking for. |
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Title: Re: Gun control again Post by shorty on 05/20/14 at 19:26:08 we already have childproof trigger locks. It is required by law to have trigger locks on all guns if there is a child in the home. When I was a child my father taught me to never touch a gun, not anywhere. I taught my children the same, it's just like teaching children not to jump into traffic, not jump off high buildings, etc. we want to make life so idiot-proof that soon we will all be mumbling fools, how about parents being responsible instead of just breeding chimpanzees ;) |
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Title: Re: Gun control again Post by verslagen1 on 05/20/14 at 20:36:16 46474E5C4E4D46444A2F0 wrote:
The neighbors kid shot himself in the head when I was young. I don't remember getting the talk. There was a investigative news cast last year or so they did at a school. 10 yr olds or so. moms swear up and down their kids wouldn't touch a gun, they all had gun safety in class. they planted a gun in a room and left it for a couple of kids to find. just about all the boys touched it, none of the girls. Quote:
come up with a better mouse trap and you'll make a million. |
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Title: Re: Gun control again Post by old_rider on 05/20/14 at 20:36:27 If a gun is in your home, you (the parent) are responsible for teaching the children proper (PROPER) gun safety. If I touched a gun before I turned 11 years old I got my tushy whupped.....it only happened once. We were taught real guns were NOT for children, and we were taught the difference. At age 11 I was taught gun safety and was allowed to shoot the pellet rifle only when a parent was present, if I touched it when one was not present I would get my tushy whupped... I did not touch one when a parent was not present. At 13 I was taught how to shoot a .22 cal rifle and a .410 shotgun.... same rule above was applied... I was also allowed to carry one while hunting with a parent. By age 14 I knew all about fire arms and their usages and was told if an unknown person threatened our family I would be allowed to defend them. I was raised to respect the weapons for what they could do, deal death... and I was taught that it was WRONG to deal death to an innocent person..... As a parent.... I taught my son the same way, and hope he will follow suit... Responsibility.... learn it, teach it, and never point the finger at an mechanical device that cannot operate on its own.... |
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Title: Re: Gun control again Post by ihasabike on 05/20/14 at 20:44:47 46454D5B404D4C5B290 wrote:
I was taught to shoot a 22 rifle when I was 5 years old. At age 16, I was a junior rifle and shotgun instructor. [quote=shorty]we already have childproof trigger locks. It is required by law to have trigger locks on all guns if there is a child in the home.[/quote] Do those trigger locks permit an adult to readily use the gun at need, without having to fish out a key and unlock it? I have had gun discussions with a lot of ladies. A lot of them just don't carry because they have young kids that could go through their purses and get their hands on the gun. Can you teach a 4 year old not to play with a gun? Would you even try? Those ladies are not able to carry, so why should they agree that others should have that right? |
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Title: Re: Gun control again Post by old_rider on 05/20/14 at 21:21:08 Answer.... concealed carry... the weapon is on your person, the child will not be able to get it without your permission. Child proof locks do not work, on anything... if a child wants it, he can get it, a lock might slow them down, but won't stop them. A gun safe will, or a gun cabinet... If you are afraid your child will get your gun.... then you are not taking the proper measures. If you are afraid you will shoot someone, you should not have a gun, even though it is legal for you to have one, because your fear will allow you to make the mistake of accidentally discharging the weapon and potentially hurting someone......just don't get one. |
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Title: Re: Gun control again Post by WD on 05/20/14 at 23:24:04 I took my father in law's guns away except for the one in his nightstand. He was leaving them around the house, chambered, no safety... He and his (now late) beagle both wobble, a lot. I was carrying the 20g jam-0-matic home and it went off... I admit I keep loaded guns close to hand, but the safety is engaged. Of course, most of them the "safety" is the operator physically thumbing the hammer back... Just like with motorcycles and trucks, I prefer old guns. My primary handgun is a .457 cap and ball revolver loaded with 50-60gr equivalent powder charges in each hole of the cylinder, capped and ready to go. I can hit a paper plate with it at 100 yards... Been shooting since I was 10. Trained by German and American snipers. Zero accidental discharges of MY guns (including a highly modified pre-64 M70 .243 with a half ounce trigger pull), and I very rarely miss my targets, inanimate or living. |
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Title: Re: Gun control again Post by ihasabike on 05/21/14 at 05:31:22 As far as childproof guns go, I think the grip safety on the Springfield XD9 might be an effective childproofing mechanism for small children, but I don't know for sure. |
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Title: Re: Gun control again Post by Paraquat on 05/21/14 at 06:18:35 I was raised around firearms. I had, and still have, a Red Ryder BB gun. Moved up to .22 and up and up. I was taught how to handle, care, respect, and be responsible. I think I've posted it here but I only ever had one "accidental discharge" due to a build up of funk in a trigger in a shotgun but the barrel was safely downrange and no ammo was even near the gun before everyone was clear. The traffic analogy is great. Same thing with the hot stove. I'm on the fence with the whuppin's but kids aren't all dumb. Talk to them like adults, preach the importance, they will listen. --Steve |
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Title: Re: Gun control again Post by ihasabike on 05/21/14 at 20:53:27 Like I said, I was taught to shoot a 22 rifle at age 5, and instructing by age 14. But my one misfire happened last year with a 22 henry lever action. It was my fist lever action, and I was used to bolt actions and automatics, I checked the chamber expecting to see any chambered round pulled back into view when I opened the chamber, much like a bolt action. Not seeing one, I instinctively pointed the rifle down range and pulled the trigger. It was still a close call though. Another group's little girl was unexpectedly rounding in front of me at the time, curious to see what I was doing. It was like a living nightmare. I've been extra paranoid at the range since that incident. |
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