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Message started by uigiroux on 04/16/14 at 18:13:27

Title: Under engine air scoop.
Post by uigiroux on 04/16/14 at 18:13:27

I asked before if the universal under engine air scoop that you can get from a number of online stores would work with the Savage, to which it was pointed out to me not likely as we have the forward controls in the way. Well i'm on a fiberglass kick right now, and while I do have another thread about building a gas tank, this is what I will get my first practice on. So I'll be posting pics and updates on my build. If it works out well and people show interest I'll create more for sale, but essentially I'm going for this look, but it'll be a direct fit for our little thumpers.

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by uigiroux on 04/16/14 at 18:14:30

Here is a pic I found, not my work but should look like this, just better!

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by ToesNose on 04/16/14 at 19:27:10

Anything can work with enough time and ingenuity 8-)

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/17/14 at 06:38:43

Saw a fella build himself a bread box once.. Didnt really have the right materials for starters. BUT, he wanted him a bread box.. He started with an old anvil he'd paid $400.00 for,, & went to work, Meltin & pouring sheets. Musta had $3,000.00 worth O time & oxygen & acetylene in that $400.00 anvil before he finished building his bread box,, but he had him a bread box, by golly!

The above story is false, written not solely for entertainment purposes, but also for illustrative purposes. Yes, we CAN build things. Sometimes, the time & materials invested pay out, sometimes not,, Ive built a few things "Gonna save a few bucks",, when I could just bought what I wanted,, & Actually saved some $$$,, Will I Still make those mistakes? Maybe,,, But I am more aware of just how easy it is to go backwards now.
If you step off in it, I wish ya well,,
If youre thinking of allowing it to hang down much below the frame I suggest you go to the most aggressive speed bump you know of & check clearances before ya build anything,,

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by old_rider on 04/17/14 at 09:45:30

Heh...if I had a nickel for every project I failed on....

I'm one of the school of "I can build that"! but have learned over the years now to scrounge around and find a "prebuild" before actually attempting the real thing...

Not sure other than visual why the savage/s40 would need a scoop, but if it is pleasing in your eyes "do it"... look at mine... lots of fellas think i'm nutz cause I put a big ol' Harley box on mine...but I like it!

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by Doody814 on 04/17/14 at 11:41:12

41424A5C474A4B5C2E0 wrote:

...but I like it!

And that, my friends, is the point! That's what customization is all about, having something that YOU like. If I wanted what everyone else had, I'd have something that rymns with Schmarley Schmavidson :)

Go for it dude! If it works, you've got a one of a kind...if it don't, you still have a one of a kind, just without a cool looking homemade air scoop. ;D

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by tical on 04/18/14 at 11:08:17

i would love one, i have a tool bag there now cause it just looks like something should be there

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by strang on 04/18/14 at 11:15:02

Aren't these a sports bike thing? Like come out of the styling of bikes that can actually go fast? ;)

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by tical on 04/18/14 at 13:20:32

its a personal preference thing!

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by Steve H on 04/18/14 at 21:14:11

If done right, it might direct a little more air over the bottom of the engine and keep the oil a little cooler.

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by uigiroux on 04/18/14 at 21:55:27

253A3C3B2621102010283A367D4F0 wrote:

I plan on keeping the lower part of the air scoop level of not very slightly above the frame. Most it is going to hug the frame, but I'm aware of what to watch out on for my part.

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by strang on 04/19/14 at 02:25:09

Go for it - i'm dead curious to see what it looks like.
Is there some bobber/sportsbike cult look goin on over on ur side of the pond? Or is this for cafe style conversion?

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by uigiroux on 04/19/14 at 12:06:10

404741525D54330 wrote:

Go for it - i'm dead curious to see what it looks like.
Is there some bobber/sportsbike cult look goin on over on ur side of the pond? Or is this for cafe style conversion?

I wouldn't really say Bobber / Sport bike look really. There is definitely a Cafe / Brat Style / Bobber scene over here. The addition of the air scoop certainly is a sport bike inspired look, but I didn't get the idea from looking at sport bikes. There are a few cafe bikes I've seen that have lots of front end fender parts. I do think this will aid slightly in engine cooling but it's mainly for aesthetics. Here is a bike I got some inspiration from. Notice how it's got the extra sport fairings, but still a cafe bike.

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by uigiroux on 04/19/14 at 14:22:00

Good use of the universal one you can buy now.

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by uigiroux on 04/28/14 at 20:46:46

So I've started sculpting my foam and have a rough shape worked out. I'm currently at my university library taking a break and coincidentally came across a picture I downloaded a while from a build thread on this site. I don't remember it but I hope someone does and can link the thread. It's a seriously insane Savage. The guy I remember modified the frame in a way I've never seen, and in doing so he was able to do a few other things I've mentioned really wanting to do on this bike. He has a CANTILEVER rear swing arm allowing for bigger / wider tires with rear disc break (I've been dying to have those two things on my bike, though if it was possible, for the rear disc break I think the ultimate cool factor is what 'Trucker' did with the disc, mounting it to the front sprocket, seriously like the most incredible fabrication I've ever seen...) Ok so back to the topic, he also has what I believe is a custom made under engine air scoop. Though I honestly don't remember if he made it or moded it from another bike. The front and back are from like a CBR900 or an R6 or something to that effect so he could have got it off one of them. I don't know, like I said, hopefully one of y'all recognize this build and can post the thread link here. On the air scoop it says 'RIZLA' so that might be his user name. Ok, enough talk I'll post the pic and gotta get back to studying for finals.

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by uigiroux on 04/28/14 at 20:49:15

Sorry for the low quality of the pic, I couldn't post it in its current form (pdf) so I put it on my computer screen and snapped a pic. Hopefully someone recognizes it! Beautiful bike!!

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by uigiroux on 04/28/14 at 20:59:56

K well I just had to find the build, though not as long as I remember, here is the link.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1375320516

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by savagebob on 04/29/14 at 02:17:15

That's pretty cool.. might look a bit odd on my bobber but I'd be real keen for some more airflow.. I wonder how much cooling difference it would actually make?

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by uigiroux on 04/29/14 at 07:17:41

Could have sworn I put this picture up for inspiration, but guess not so here it is. It's a 2011 Honda Sabre Pro Drag Concept, but that air scoop has me drooling...

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/29/14 at 07:28:28

Have you taken a pic of the savage & photoshopped it yet? If not, ya mite want to. That scoop fits into that bikes overall shape, it doesnt look like an afterthought, a scoop on a savage? I dunno,, & when you get done putting the time in, you may not dig it as much as ya think now.. Mite be ahead to step back & see what its really gonna look like,

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by uigiroux on 04/29/14 at 07:41:33

Really sweet close up of it.

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by uigiroux on 04/29/14 at 08:06:58

67787E7964635262526A78743F0D0 wrote:

I don't use photoshop, but yes I've not only drawn up my design (going between a few different ones as I get further in and have a better feel of the inside geometry I'll go from there. I've started my mold and not from pictures, it's a one off mold on the frame side. I've made the proper measurements to make sure it runs parallel to the ground and I'm going to use a little trig to figure the general slope of the scoop as the best designs seems to run tangent to the tire and then open up a few degrees. I may not be a professional by any means at mechanics but I am obsessive and anal as hell. I've spent months already just thinking about doing this, I just started the thread not long ago but I've brought this up before. Also, your skepticism about an air scoop on a Savage, I'm just curious, so you do not think that blue one I posted last night looks good? I love it but I mean do you not even like it at all. There are other Savages out there that I've seen with air scoops and honestly, this is probably one of two that I thought looked like it belonged there, and this one wasn't even custom made for it, it was just salvaged from another bike. So I guess what I'm saying is I have and will continue to think about the best design and functionality, and any other details one could think of until it's done. If at that point I don't like what I've produced, I'll try again as its cheap as hell to make a mold. I am in finals week to graduate and I HAVE to pass my classes or I'm basically never graduating, I got to bed at 3:30am this morning and had to wake up at 6:30am, I was exhausted from being on campus all week, and u didn't get a minute of sleep because I was thinking of different ways to secure the scoop to the bike. Point being, I'm going to make this work out die from resin fume poisoning, lol. I think just the fact that I've posted a pic of a Savage with a sweet looking under scoop goes to show that yes it can be done while still looking really good.

That's my 2 cents...

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/29/14 at 08:34:29

Yea, man, they can look good. Im not knockin the idea at all, just trying to do some arm chair quarterbackin & tossin out ideas. Id hate to see a guy dump a ton O time in something & come away disappointed if a little more planning would help him dodge that. Sounds like youre on your way to winning it. Thats all I care about it, is that ya win & walk away smiling,
Hang in there on school. WIN that..

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by uigiroux on 04/29/14 at 09:18:24

Thanks man, I didn't mean to come off hostile if I did I'm sorry. I'm just out of my mind from tests lol. I know what you are talking about though. I have another thread which basically is my failure. I tried stripping and coating my exhaust header with VHT Ceramic paint, and I did it twice. First time didn't take long I just followed the instructions on the can after a few hours with the sanding flap and other chemicals. That didn't take. So I read up a bunch and was basically told I needed to take things way way slower. So I spread the next attempt over a week and it started out great, I thought I had a great paint job that was gonna hold, but before the end of the night it was chipping and cracked all to hell. I've since gotten them to agree to refund the cost of the paint and I complained about how I spent probably 40ish in materials to do the job so there gonna refund me an extra 50, so ironically that will cover the cost of a professional job I got quoted here in Houston. So yeah I'm gonna take my time, I need a win!

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/29/14 at 09:20:50

What part of HOuston you in?

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by uigiroux on 04/29/14 at 09:31:05

I live in the Montrose area and go to UH.

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/29/14 at 09:52:32

I dont know Montrose. I left Houston 46 years ago. I went to Aldine Jr High & lived down Gault Rd, off of Aldine Mail Route,
Just across the street from Greens Bayou,, the only house for 5 blocks.. A Wonderland for a boy.

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by uigiroux on 04/29/14 at 11:09:37

Lol I can imagine how much fun that was. Montrose is like the new 'hip' part of town just west of downtown going off of around Westheimer and Shepard or Kirby. I grew up in Nebraska before I moved here in 04 and I still haven't gotten used to the heat. Freaking 9 month summers suck, especially with our 400% humidity... Still in good riding weather though so I'm getting it in while I can!

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by uigiroux on 05/03/14 at 00:03:19

Got my mold nearly finished. I messed up a few areas so I'll put some filler over it once I'm satisfied with the overall shape and get it nice and smooth and ready to go.

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/03/14 at 06:50:43

Thanksa for the update,,

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by uigiroux on 05/15/14 at 15:53:15

So I've kinda screwed up, but I'm fixing it. I wanted to cover the mold in bondo to fill in the parts I over sanded and just get a nice smooth and more solid piece that I could use to fiberglass over. Well I didn't know how difficult that stuff is to apply. I was thinking I could pour some over my mold and then use a paint brush to smooth out. Not the case, so I have a thick covered mold now, and trying to sand it was so hard I just went and got a belt and disc sander along with a precision sander ($200 later at Home Depot...).

Anyways, I'm almost done with the mold, soon it should be a shiny piece getting prepped to be fiberglassed. Pictures coming soon.

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by uigiroux on 05/18/14 at 08:34:46

Ok so a bit of an update. I completely scraped my first mold as I just wasn't satisfied with the look and I went and got a better, more firm foam from the art shop down the street from me. Got a block big enough to make 2 mom's for $5! Well I started another the same way I did the first but I then realized what I was doing wrong. My main concern is of course it has to look great, but it has to be completely symmetrical. I couldn't hope to do this and make an inner scoop out of one piece. I was able to get the angles equal using the guides on the belt / disc sander as it has a way to angle the table that goes by the disc and a slide groove in there so I can follow through with my whole mold. Anyways, I stenciled my main design against some thinner pieces of foam I bought and when I created my inside Mills with a nice scoop and the proper angles, well it wasn't wide enough to fit just flush with the outer side of the frame. So I tried to recover this piece all last night and I tried doing this by fitting another stencil of the outside design against what I'd made. No go. We'll I was thinking about it today and I'm pretty sure I've solved my problem. I will build the inner scoop as I did the second time, but instead of just putting a stencil over it like I had, I'm going to apply what I tried doing to fix it to create the right dimensions. I'm going to cut up the stencil so there is a piece that follows the frame, and the bottom edge, then where I made the angle going inwards I'll apply that piece between the two and fill in the thin gaps created by angleing, and then lightly sand it to smooth everything out. I don't want to jinx myself like I did when I tried painting the header myself..., but I think I might have finally found a way to make a very sweet looking mold for this bike. And really the overall side view of it has remained very similar, and I think it has looked great while I've had my gf hold it for me while I stand back and admire it haha. I'm expecting tomorrow I'll finally have a mold to fiberglass! Very excited!

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/18/14 at 11:26:36

If ya want to make a symmetrical piece, could you make one side then use that to make a mirror image?

MMMMkay, Looka whut I done gone & found

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/casting/conversations/topics/31013

Ive seen guys build fenders on a French wheel. How they are able to make that second fender come out as a mirror image of the first is just amazing to me.

Anyway, look up making a mirror image mold & see if theres anything you can find there.

Another approach may be build one side then build sections of the other side & put them together. If an angle isnt perfect, shim the sections to accommodate that & fill the gap with, well,, play doh if ya hafta. Heck, modelling clay is out there..
You dont wanna mess with bondo on foam,, Holding the piece down
to sand it wont be easy,& unless you have experience in sanding bondo, youre just not gonna get it.

Heres a starter clue.

Say you have a Ford pickup door panel & youve got Bondo ( "mud" for future reference) from the door handle down, front to back & you can feel a high spot that drops off harder toward the front of the door & tapers off more gently toward the rear. You take your long sanding board & sand, pushing the board from the top of the high point toward the front of the door. Lots of people want to start sanding where the mud is closest to what they want & work toward the high point.. thats not gonna work.,.
So,, maybe modelling clay on a foam block & a piece of plywood to lay the piece on, some wire to put on the wood & hold next to the part & compare heights at distances from center..
You mite get a broom stick & make a few "legs" & mount them on the plywood & put holes in the foam part way, drill down, put a fat washer in & mount the block to legs.

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by gizzo on 05/18/14 at 15:52:33

Sounds like you're on your way, nice work man. If I could throw some unsolicited foam working advice your way it would be this:

Find some blue or pink foam. You guys use it for underfloor insulation in the states. It's hard to find in Australia. It's called XPS (extruded polystyrene) and trade names are Dow, HiLoad, Spyderfoam. It sands really nice, is easy to work with and it dissolves in petrol or thinners.

Make your plug (buck, male mould, whatever) from 2 or more slabs of the foam. Glue the slabs together with 3M77 contact adhesive. If you do this, you will have a perfect center line through the whole block to work with. Makes an excellent reference point and you wont lose it like a line drawn on the outside. The centre line makes it really easy to find the parting plane if you're building a 2 piece mould, too.

Once you have one side shaped nice, its easy to make cardboard templates to get the other side to match. Or eyeball it. Its much easier with that center line there.

If you have a car charger or 12v battery and a length of .020 stainless wire, you can easily make a hot wire cutter to block your plug out to close to the right shape. A soldering iron is handy for roughing out, making hollow sections. But do it outside. The fumes are toxic.

Sand the foam in one direction only. It helps avoid the foam chunking out.

If you're using polyester resin, seal the foam plug with packing tape. Really seal it. otherwise the resin will dissolve the plug into a puddle of goo. I use epoxy.

Sounds like you're on top of things. I just posted this in case theres something you haven't discovered. I use foam a lot, building racing gliders. Good luck buddy. Photos?
regards
s

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by uigiroux on 05/20/14 at 21:00:04

So I finally have my mold almost finished, I just need to decide how to shape the top of the side fins or whatever you call em. Here are some pics of what it's roughly going to look like. I will smooth everything out before fiberglassing, but this is pretty close.

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by uigiroux on 05/20/14 at 21:00:45

More angles.

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by uigiroux on 05/20/14 at 21:01:24

Other side.

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by uigiroux on 05/22/14 at 16:51:51

So I think I've finished the mold, here is it set up against my bike. Thoughts, suggestions, before I start to glass it?

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by uigiroux on 05/22/14 at 17:26:26

Close ups.

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by uigiroux on 05/22/14 at 17:27:47

Another. God I wish we could post more than one pic at a time...

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by Dave on 05/23/14 at 05:55:04

524E404E5548525F270 wrote:

Another. God I wish we could post more than one pic at a time...

You can: Use www.tinypic.com

You can then just copy and past the url for the web forum (second one down) into the text of your post.

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by savagebob on 06/03/14 at 15:37:15

Do you think you'll get any cooling effect from this? Or is it purely aesthetic?

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by uigiroux on 06/03/14 at 19:23:35

I mainly did this for aesthetics, but I designed it to catch a good amount of air so I think it will provide some extra cooling.

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by gizzo on 06/03/14 at 21:47:58

That shape, looks like you'll be able to make a 1 piece female mould from it. That'll make it easier for sure. Are you glassing this foam, then making a female mould from it, or a 1 off using the male mould?

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by YoungSavage on 06/03/14 at 23:01:45

If after all of this work you find that you'll be making more of these I would definitely be in the running to buy one. Love that look.

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by uigiroux on 06/03/14 at 23:18:40

I always intended on making this via a female mold, mainly because I want a near perfect finish straight out of the mold. I also figured some would be interested in this too so I plan on producing more. I'm pretty sure I know how I want to secure this to the frame, but any suggestions on open to.

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by uigiroux on 06/03/14 at 23:24:02

695F455E57635146515755300 wrote:

If after all of this work you find that you'll be making more of these I would definitely be in the running to buy one. Love that look.

Thanks! It's still a work in process, some fine details I need to work out. I kind of got put at a dead stop when my spark plug just broke off in my cylinder head... Trying to fix that first then I'll get right back to this.

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by mpescatori on 06/04/14 at 00:54:43

A few comments from one who's ridden quite a few bikes with air scoops:

- the air scoop will keep your running temperatures warmer/hotter when your ride slowly, i.e. in city traffic; that is because the amount of air wich cools the sump with the scoop, at low speeds, is less than the amount of air without the scoop;
stop at a traffic light for too long and the sump will fry...

- the air scoop works wonders provided the "hole" and the area under the sump match a predetermined ratio, creating a venturi; in other words the "hole" has a size => area, and the area under the sump has a volume:
given the "area/volume" ratio, the lower the number, the higher the cooling factor, until a certain point, after which the venturi effect of the scoop becomes marginal and you're better off without it...
You need to find a good book on venturis to understand the principles, that is why most good quality air scoops are dedicated to a specific make&model, it's not about the mounting brackets... ;)

- the air scoop also has an aerodynamic function, as it keeps the front wheel down, but this makes sense only if you ride a cafe racer... real fast! At 60mph, on a cruiser, it won't help at all, as most of the weight is on the rear tire anyway.

Having said that, I need to point out that the "RIZLA+" on the blue cafe racer Savage in Page 1 is NOT the rider's call sign, it's the sponsor (real or wannabe).

http://https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSAplKRaOt01Jvdd6bdxCKwlQKNO_9DVHfinHls4CcQ9Z_cDJjzhttp://https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQALipSWFE-Cq6jN-2Uwtl543uBpidTQyCvNExapUG6Sj7HpyFr

Suzukis make wonderful clubman racers... and RIZLA+ is rice paper for rolling you own... 8-)

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by uigiroux on 06/04/14 at 10:15:03

That's good info to know. I haven't finished my design but I did plan on having an opening as you described, but now I will research it much more. I knew immediately after trying to find the thread it wasn't his user name, but what you said, just never bothered to correct it.

Title: Re: Under engine air scoop.
Post by uigiroux on 07/04/14 at 15:52:24

So obviously behind on my project. School and my recent trouble with my spark plug incident has put me way behind. I'm going to try and get this finished soon. Just out of curiosity, will the miserable humidity and heat of Houston affect my fiberglassing?