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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Cranking Problems /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1396732137 Message started by mhart731 on 04/05/14 at 14:08:57 |
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Title: Cranking Problems Post by mhart731 on 04/05/14 at 14:08:57 I looked around but didn't see anything specifically like my problem. I just finished the cam chain tensioner and petcock mod. Now the bike turns over and fires, even sounds like it is cranking. But it just won't quite go all the way. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by verslagen1 on 04/05/14 at 14:55:46 2520293A3C7F7B79480 wrote:
OK, so which is it? Quote:
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by S-P on 04/05/14 at 16:08:20 If you have an inline filter on the Raptor, take it off. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by Serowbot on 04/05/14 at 16:52:48 Mixed terminology here... Sequentially.... 1. starter cranks 2. engine turns over. 3. if engine fires,.. it's running... no problem... |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by oldNslow on 04/05/14 at 16:53:28 282D243731727674450 wrote:
I'm a little confused by your description of the problem, but if you mean that the starter is cranking the engine, but that the bike won't actually start and run, the first thing you need to do is make sure you have a fully charged battery. It's not uncommon for a battery that is slightly run down to have enough juice to run the starter, but not enough to operate the ignition system. The spark plug won't fire and the engine won't start. You changed the petcock ? Double check your work. Make sure fuel is getting to the carb. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by mhart731 on 04/05/14 at 17:08:35 Sorry for the confusion. What I meant was that the battery is fully charged, the engine turns, nothing seems bogged or lagging. The engine sounds like it is just before running as long as the starter is engaged, it just won't actually crank all the way up and run on it's own. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by mhart731 on 04/05/14 at 17:09:35 I know gas is getting to the carb, just don't know where to go from there. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by oldNslow on 04/05/14 at 17:20:54 Quote:
You installed Verslagen's modified adjuster and a Raptor petcock? The bike ran before you did this work ? Correct? |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by mhart731 on 04/05/14 at 17:26:01 Yes is did run before this was done. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by oldNslow on 04/05/14 at 17:43:24 Quote:
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this. Have you taken the plug out and verified that it is firing? |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by verslagen1 on 04/05/14 at 18:34:58 43464F5C5A191D1F2E0 wrote:
Is it going put cough put cough put cough... ? or a very subdued tut tut tut... ? did you adjust the decomp? might be too tight. check your compression... stick it in 2nd and see if you can push it. does it mush thru or does it stop? |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by mhart731 on 04/05/14 at 18:36:19 This is obviously harder to explain on here but seems to be a fairly simple problem. Battery was charged (even jumped from a car battery once it died a little), no inline filter on raptor, spark plug is firing. When I hit the button the engine turns over but won't run. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by mhart731 on 04/05/14 at 18:38:37 More of the cough put cough put. How do you check/adjust decomp? |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by oldNslow on 04/05/14 at 19:12:08 484D445751121614250 wrote:
Quote:
Bike ran before you worked on it. Starter cranks engine. Getting gas. Plug is firing. I'm stumped. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by verslagen1 on 04/05/14 at 19:12:11 Run thru what you did to the bike since it last run. No sense checking anything you didn't touch, but there might be something that you didn't know that you changed. So let's go thru, explain every detail if you can. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by mhart731 on 04/05/14 at 22:06:51 I drove it very little last summer. It would die unless I ran it on prime and it made a terrible tapping noise. As soon as I found this site and figured out the problems I parked it. It sat for about 4 months but still would crank while it was parked. About a month ago I got a verslavy and a raptor petcock. I started with the tensioner. Drained the oil. Tied the bike off and loosened the plates that hold the foot pegs took small muffler guard off on the right side. Removed entire exhaust in one piece. Oil filter cover off then clutch cover off. Replaced tensioner and gasket. Clutch cover back on. New oil filter in and cover on. Broke a bolt on clutch cover from using a torque wrench too big so I waited until I got some replacement bolts and a smaller wrench then put the last bolt in. Exhaust and guard back on then tightened those bolts for the kickstand/foot pegs. Next I did the raptor mod. The gas was already drained so I just took those two bolts out of the tank and put the new petcock in with the white filters in the ends of the tubes inside the tank. Tightened that back down. Cut the vacuum hose shorter and put a small bolt in it with a hose clamp to seal it. Filled the tank with gas and the engine with oil. I followed the post about filling the oil on the stand until you can barely see it in the window. took my battery off the charger and hooked that up. Tried to crankit and found the battery to be completely dead. Bought a new battery and charged it. Put it on and tried to crank it. Engine turned over but I notice I had an oil leak around the front of the engine in the seam of the clutch cover. I tightened the bolts close to it but it still seeped out. So I pulled the exhaust again after draining the oil. Took the cover off and put a little sealant on both sides of the gasket. Replaced the cover and torqued the bolts (I marked the ones with rubber washers and the longers ones) to 60, then all to 80 then to 95. Put the exhaust back and tightened everything back down. While waiting on this to set, I changed the handle bars. Went from z bars with 6" rise and all stock cables to plain drag bars. Also I made sure the gas was off the entire time so it didn't flood the engine. About 36 hours after putting the sealant on I put the battery back on and tried cranking it. Hate to be so simple but I want to cover all my bases. Key is on, bike is in neutral, clutch pulled, run switch on, gas to on position, choke all the way out. Hit the start switch and the starter turns the engine over and it turns over fast. This is where my problem is. The only way I know how to describe it is the bike sounds like its just about to run, but it just keeps turning over and won't actually run. Plug is sparking too. Now I'm not a "mechanic" but I do have a general knowledge of mechanics. I can turn a wrench and make things fit. But I don't know much about compression valves or carb floats or anything like that. That's why I'm here. If somebody can point me in the right direction I can find and hopefully fix it. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by verslagen1 on 04/05/14 at 23:03:01 sorry to put you thru that, way more then I expected, or have come to expect. At least I can put my esp cap aside. ;D I don't think it was anything you did, but maybe your original problem wasn't fixed. The terrible tapping noise, may be the decomp cam smacking on the rocker. open the exhaust valve inspection port and check the cam. you'll need to be on the right side to see it. And you might try just loosening the decomp cable. This cable has to have slack in it. If it's tight at all, it won't work right. Take a peek and let us know. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by Serowbot on 04/05/14 at 23:13:45 EDIT- sorry I took so long on this post, Versy got a post in ahead of me. Try his decomp check first... Okay.. Battery is good.. it is powering the starter... and the engine is turning over at adequate speed... It sounds like the petcock is good... it's a Raptor, it's set to ON, and the vac line is plugged...the carb is getting fuel... The engine is turning, so nothing is obstructing rotation in the clutch case... (I'm guessing at the torque... those are inch pounds ?... but, nothing stripped out, and nothing is leaking)... We're down to basics... I'd recommend that you double check every connection you can find under the seat and tank... Then,.. it's spark, fuel, air, compression, You said you are getting fuel, and spark... air hasn't changed... That leaves compression... rings. valves, decomp,... Rings haven't changed... check that there is some slack in the decomp cable... If you haven't removed the head cover, or taken off the camchain entirely, the valves should be okay... Okay, no problem,... it should start... :-/... You've missed something... On the off chance that you've been cranking a lot,... a whole lot... without starting... There is a thing called gas wash,.. that can happen when fuel is entering the cylinder, but never gets burned... This washes the oil seal off the cylinder walls, and can bring compression down to almost zero... Try a squirt of oil into the sparkplug hole... give 2 seconds of crank with the sparkplug still out,.. then put the plug in and try to start again... If that ain't it... I just don't know where to go from there... Start over,.. and check everything again... Battery, cranking speed, fuel, spark, etc... Best luck... keep us informed... You know, as do we,... that this is a fixable problem... ... and it's likely nothing too serious... We've all been there... ;)... |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by mhart731 on 04/05/14 at 23:20:58 Thanks guys. I'll start these checks tomorrow and hopefully let you know which one fixes my problem. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by Bluesman on 04/06/14 at 01:29:33 Sorry, but how do you know the carb gets gas, and delivers gas mixture to the cylinder? Wet spark plug? If thatīs the fact, it might be simple. Plugs that have been soaked while cranking for a long time seem to fire properly outside the engine, and may refuse to fire when reinstalled. The spark just canīt develop properly under compression. I have seen this on NGK plugs on my old Triumph chopper - and even on new ones. Cleaning them / burning off the oil/gas/dirt may help, but is not guaranteed. So..change the plug to a known good one/new one and see if it fires. (Yes, I learned this the hard way on the chop...I even tore down my ignition, realigned it TWICE, swapped the coils, cables and lots of other stuff. Finally, I put two old 1980:s plugs into it...and it fired on first kick - after a month of kickstarting efforts. Turned out both plugs had been fouled up, they refused to fire under compression. ) |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by mhart731 on 04/06/14 at 02:42:31 Well, I don't know that it delivers gas mixture to the cylinder. I do know that the carb gets gas and that (outside the engine) the spark plug is firing. I know that before the mods the fuel delivery was fine besides the internal petcock problem. I'm sure it's just something simple that I am unaware of, like decomp or maybe a vacuum issue or something. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by Oldfeller on 04/06/14 at 05:27:54 Get a can of either (quick starting fluid) from any auto parts store or Walmart. A 2 second blast of either down the carb throat followed by a quick hit on the starter will answer the fuel related questions very quickly as if it runs revs up some on either even for a second or three you know the problem is really fuel delivery. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by Oldfeller on 04/06/14 at 05:33:32 Get a can of either (quick starting fluid) from any auto parts store or Walmart. A 2 second blast of either down the carb throat followed by a quick hit on the starter will answer the fuel related questions very quickly as if it runs on either even for a second or two you know the problem is fuel delivery. ================= Should this be the case, the float valve rubber tip is likely stuck in the brass seat. I have had this happen after trailering the bike a goodly distance, the float was getting bounced by the RR tracks and other bumps and it got stuck. Simply hit the bowl of the carb 3-4 times sharply with a big screw driver handle to jar the rubber tip from the seat and all will start working again normally. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by S-P on 04/06/14 at 09:15:03 5550594A4C0F0B09380 wrote:
Try shooting some starter fluid in the air filter. Also, are you pulling the choke out? I had some starting issues when I changed my petcock and did the Versy mod too for some reason. No clue why, but starter fluid got me going. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by mhart731 on 04/06/14 at 17:05:51 This is going to sound crazy. I've spent the last hour playing around with this thing. New spark plug, shot of oil in plug hole, loosened decomp cable (found the instructional in the tech section), AND 2 small sprays of starting fluid in air filter. Didn't change one bit. Bike still won't run. Enough frustration for one day. Maybe tomorrow I mess with it more. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by oldNslow on 04/06/14 at 17:42:58 OK: You are sure: Bike ran before you worked on it. Battery is good - fully charged Getting fuel - either gas or starting fluid Plug is good. Plug is firing You mentioned a tapping noise when the bike was running. Was the original cam chain adjuster apart when you took the clutch cover off, or was it just extended close to the limit? I'm thinking valve/valve timing problem. I can't imagine what you could have goofed up putting the modified adjuster in, but that's where I'd be looking next. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by mhart731 on 04/06/14 at 18:37:56 Yes the bike ran. I even drive it a few times last summer. Tensioner was all the way apart when I opened the case. I'm charging the battery now and plan on checking the plug and fuel flow tomorrow. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by mhart731 on 04/06/14 at 18:39:47 If the tensioner was all the way out would replacing it throw off the valve timing somehow? |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/06/14 at 19:54:51 Nope, unless you were able to make the chain jump a tooth on a sprocket,,& that aint no kinda easy,, Roll the motor around to TDC COMPRESSION,, look at the crank marker under the plug on the left side. Pop the valve inspection covers & wiggle the rockers,, Both sides should have a few thousandths slack,, Only rotate the motor the direction it turns when its running, |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by oldNslow on 04/06/14 at 20:00:52 4C49405355161210210 wrote:
I'm not sure. But if the adjuster was completely apart - plunger out of the housing, spring falling (or fell)out - I think it's possible for the chain to have jumped a tooth on one of the sprockets. If it did, the valves are now out of time. Just putting the modified adjuster in won't fix that. I haven't been deep enough into one of these motors to know for certain if the cam chain can jump even with no tension on it - it may not. But the symptoms you are having point in that direction. Hopefully someone who's done an overhaul or two will chime in. Quote:
I thought we already did that. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by verslagen1 on 04/06/14 at 21:13:48 get a voltmeter and check the voltage while you're starting. if it drops below 10 it aint gonna start. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by mhart731 on 04/06/14 at 21:18:08 I did already do that, but I'm doing it again to be sure my battery is at full charge and plug is still firing. I have checked fuel flow to carb only, I don't know if it's stopping there or not. As far as timing, the bike ran fine when I put it up besides the tapping (from the tensioner) and that every now and then it would die unless I ran it on prime (I assumed the stock petcock was causing this). Changed those two things and this is where I am. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by mhart731 on 04/06/14 at 21:20:28 I'll check that voltage too tomorrow. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by Bluesman on 04/07/14 at 01:46:38 AFter you check the voltage.....get yourself a can of start gas/ether and a FRESH plug. The one you have must have been totally drenched during your efforts. Seriously - change it, and donīt crank the engine just yet. Hereīs a sure-fire way to troubleshoot this: Close the petcock. Pull the supply hose between the petcock and carb. DRAIN the carb (loosen the screw underneath the float bowl) to prevent any stale or contaminated gas to reach the engine. Push the choke lever all the way in. Now, take the air filter off to get access to the inlet of the carb. Lift the slider to about half throttle, and stick a 10mm drill bit into the carb, just far enough to keep the slider quarter-way open or so. Switch ignition on, spray a 2 second squirt as far as you can into the inlet opening, under the slider. Then crank it. (Start gas will fire under the most crappy compression conditions, and for the tiniest spark, and in a totally oiled up cylinder, even with the decomp valve partly open.) If it wonīt fire at all with a FRESH plug, your ignition timing is off a lot for some reason. If it backfires, and refuses to run properly for a second or two, it may be off a tooth or so. If it runs properly for a second...and fires up properly if you repeat the above a couple of times, all is well with the timing and plug. ..take the drill bit out. Reconnect the fuel hose, make sure the vacuum hose is ok and connected and put the petcock on PRI for 4-5 secs, then close it. That should give you gas enough in the float bowl to try again without drenching the carb. Stay off the choke. Crank it at practically no throttle. Any results? Start? Cool. Now you know it was the plug all along. No start? From there, itīs a carb cleaning job and time to swap the gas in the tank. Gas gets stale in 3-4 months over here, especially low-price stuff. (Been there, wasted one month and a lot of cash by looking in the wrong places) |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/07/14 at 07:14:07 Ohh yea, I was chasing a hard start, wouldnt rev up[ when I gave it gas, it would gag & die.. I changed the gas.. new bike.. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by mhart731 on 04/09/14 at 17:46:50 Status update: checked decomp, it was a little tight but still some play. I loosened it some anyway. I just followed the how to in the tech section. Didn't make any difference. Tried the new plug, open carb thing. Engine still the same, won't run. Pulled the carb and cleaned everything. Put it all back, same thing. Still turns over but won't run. I'm lost... Do you think it may be timing? How do I check that? |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by old_rider on 04/09/14 at 19:25:42 Sounding more and more to me like one of the safety switches is keeping it from starting. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by verslagen1 on 04/09/14 at 19:27:49 safety switches won't let it crank either. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by verslagen1 on 04/09/14 at 19:31:33 3A3F362523606466570 wrote:
If it's timing you gotta really big problem... not much can go wrong there except a bad black box... you got spark, leave it alone. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by S-P on 04/09/14 at 19:44:48 786B7C7D626F696B603F0E0 wrote:
It sounds like it is cranking over, just not firing up and running. From what I saw when I replaced my chain tensioner, I don't think you can mess up timing doing that. (I could be wrong...) I'd try different choke settings too. Try starter fluid without the choke pulled out and maybe half way pulled out instead of all the way. Once you figure this out it's probably going to be a forehead slapper for everyone. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by verslagen1 on 04/09/14 at 19:58:39 check the float level. easy way if you got a drain nipple is to attach a clear tube to it hold it up next to the carb and open the drain. gas should come up the the gasket with bike level. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by S-P on 04/09/14 at 20:31:13 554651504F4244464D12230 wrote:
Ah, cool... the same principle as a water level we use in construction. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by oldNslow on 04/10/14 at 05:44:26 Checking and re-checking the same things - fuel,spark,battery,starter motor - once you are satisfied they are OK isn't going to fix this. Forget ignition timing - there is nothing you can do about it and if the plug fires at all it is not likely the issue. You need to check the valves. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1325991352 Don't worry so much about the exact clearance right now, but make sure you can wiggle both rocker arms a little bit when the engine is at TDC on the compression stroke. That tells you that all four valves are closed when they should be. If you can't wiggle them then something happened when the cam chain adjuster came apart and you are going to have to figure out what. If you can wiggle both rockers and the clearance is close to spec. 0.003in-0.005in on all four valves then -again assuming good fuel, spark good battery etc.- there is no reason I can think of for the engine NOT to start. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by mhart731 on 04/10/14 at 07:26:27 I think we found the problem. At TDC the rocker arms don't budge. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by Serowbot on 04/10/14 at 07:45:03 Rotate 360' and check again... You're probably not on the compression stroke... |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by S-P on 04/10/14 at 07:49:31 76737A696F2C282A1B0 wrote:
Double check that you are on TDC on the correct stroke. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by oldNslow on 04/10/14 at 08:25:55 5E59485B48435D4C58412D0 wrote:
Double check that you are on TDC on the correct stroke. [/quote] Amen to that. Roll the engine over several times and make sure that you never get to a place where the timing marks are lined up and BOTH rocker arms are free. If that turns out to be the case you're going to need a service manual I think. I don't know if anyone is going to be able to walk you through checking the valve timing by typing back and forth. I'm making one assumption here - that you didn't try doing a valve adjustment when you were working on the bike prior to the not starting issue. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by mhart731 on 04/10/14 at 09:48:56 Here's an update on my problem. I bypassed all safety switches, filled it with new gas. I made sure I was on TDC on compression stroke and set the valve clearances. Picked up a compression tester, it shows 130 psi. New spark plug and fully charged battery. I've got a couple of theories. Either some kind of electrical or relay, or maybe the starter. Here's a videos of starting attempts. One with choke and one without. http://youtu.be/sJOIb-qGabM |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by mhart731 on 05/09/14 at 13:52:03 http://youtu.be/fK16dl5YEss |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by Dave on 05/09/14 at 13:59:05 That sounds an awful lot like a weak battery.....the neutral light is nearly going out when the engine hits top dead center. There may not be enough battery to run the spark right when you need it. |
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Title: Re: Cranking Problems Post by old_rider on 05/09/14 at 14:18:11 Rectifier ? short or loose ground not allowing power on start? Leaky vacuum plug? guess I should go back and reread again....been awhile since I read the full post. |
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