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Message started by North Country on 04/01/14 at 10:14:57

Title: Why people will vote against their own interests—
Post by North Country on 04/01/14 at 10:14:57

I am often perplexed by people whose voting patterns seem to consistently run counter to their own good--why poor southerners vote for the most regressive Republicans.

As a partial explanation of this phenomenon. I offer the following link. It's making the rounds on the psychology listserves this morning.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/04/01/science/spite-is-good-spite-works.html?from=homepage

Spite-is-good-spite-works.

Excerpt:

By NATALIE ANGIER

March 31, 2014

Reporting in February in the journal Psychological Assessment, Dr. Marcus and his colleagues presented the preliminary results from their new “spitefulness scale,” a 17-item survey they created to assess individual differences in spitefulness, just as existing personality tests measure traits like agreeableness and extroversion.

A total of 946 college students and 297 adults were asked to rate how firmly they agreed with sentiments like “If my neighbor complained about the appearance of my front yard, I would be tempted to make it look worse just to annoy him or her” or “If I opposed the election of an official, I would happily see the person fail even if that failure hurt my community” or “I would be willing to take a punch if it meant someone I did not like would receive two punches.”

From the survey and related experiments, the researchers determined that men were generally more spiteful than women and young adults more spiteful than older ones, and that spitefulness generally cohabited with traits like callousness, Machiavellianism and poor self-esteem — but not with agreeableness, conscientiousness or a tendency to feel guilt.

Dr. Marcus also identified circumstances that can provoke spiteful outbursts from otherwise temperate people: partisan politics, for example. (“If the other candidate wins, I hope the economy crashes.”) Or bitter divorces, like the husband who threw his savings into a trash bin, Dr. Marcus said, to avoid sharing any money with his ex-wife.

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by Dane Allen on 04/01/14 at 10:47:22

7870716F6167020 wrote:

I am often perplexed by people whose voting patterns seem to consistently run counter to their own good--why poor southerners vote for the most regressive Republicans...

HAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!!!

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

That's a good one... ;D

It's, like, 5 jokes in one... ;D

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by Pine on 04/01/14 at 11:36:34

Well you could have just asked....

We attempt to pick the lesser of two evils. While us poor southerners share a homogeneous culture within our geographical area, we do not always share core values and seldom to we share the same economic sub-systems.

When a liberal candidate talks about raising taxes to give to the poor, (in our state) you can be VERY sure that all decisions will be by race. This is why its its a parody to do white face, and a crime to black face.

But I think the article is valid as is your point. I have not voted either democrat nor republician since Ronald Reagan. Spite? Or has neither party seen fit represent me. I COULD ( as my mother insists) voted for the "closest" fit, instead of throwing my vote away (her words).

If both parties are going to take from me, and neither party will benefit me or my ideals, why shouldn't I vote spitefully? Where you are obviously mistaken is in thinking or failing to think, that either party has EVER (since Lincoln) given one flip about the poorest state in the nation. Money talks and BS walks.. and this state has none ( money). And BOTH parties like it that way. Democrats can BUY votes with welfare checks, and Republicans can attempt to buy votes by offering to not raise taxes. If the state were to ever have money then the politicians could not buy our votes, they would lose power.. so the farce continues.

So we do not vote against our own self interests - its just that for the time being... that may soon change... lower taxes beats welfare checks in the battle for our votes.

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by shorty on 04/01/14 at 12:01:52

well there lies the problem.. the New York Times ;D

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by North Country on 04/01/14 at 12:16:50

You make some valid points Mr. Pine.

I wish politicians would take a different approach and offer people something positive to vote for instead of against...and not be defensive against the fear mongering attacks by the right.

Sometimes people are just voting the lesser of evils.

Sometimes people are not voting because they don't want to be part of a corrupt system.

"Spite" quickly becomes frustration, hopelessness or any number of other things when you're talking about politics.

Politicians by and large don't represent ANYONE'S interests but the wealthy, and this probably explains why only 25% of voters vote in any given election.

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/01/14 at 14:52:37

Depends on how people think. Some people think long term. Instead of voting for freebies, vote for giving someone a chance to help build a healthy economy. May not have all the "stuff" tiomorrow, but Later, be able to have more,,

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by raydawg on 04/01/14 at 16:44:21

One of the biggest problems regarding politicians is the people who vote (for them).
Most people who vote do so along strict party lines, never really listening to the candidates and weighing their answers.

They get their "news" from a source that echos their already held beliefs, never challenging their own beliefs, or information source, and willingly believing anything against the opposition, or their own beliefs....

Sheep and herd mentality, and it keeps the media rich, as the sheep need to be constantly fed indoctrination.

Its not about fixing the ills of our nation, its about getting and keeping the power in the party....

You vote religiously for one party, you are the problem...... even if you don't believe it.

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by WebsterMark on 04/01/14 at 17:41:19

North Country; are you really Starlifter returned?....

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by pgambr on 04/01/14 at 17:47:57

6F5D5A4B4C5D4A75594A53380 wrote:

North Country; are you really Starlifter returned?....

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by Pine on 04/02/14 at 07:12:18

42514954514757300 wrote:

I wanted respond to this. I do not think you are wrong, but it is devisive to refer to people as sheep. My prefferred and I think more accurate (at least for this state) is sports fans.
People here want to be on the "winning" team. It does not really matter to them who the team is.. as long as its the winning team. Its still your crowd or herd mentality, but re-defined to this current model of lets be a winner! It angers people greatly when I refuse to vote for the "popular" or the "only one that can win". They are so struck with the idea of voting for the winner. If elections had ads like the superbowl.. more folks would vote. Lets get our popcorn and beer and watch our candidate win.

To be sure its no less sad, really.

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by verslagen1 on 04/02/14 at 11:29:40

65766E73766070170 wrote:

Most people who vote do so along strict party lines, never really listening to the candidates and weighing their answers.

They get their "news" from a source that echos their already held beliefs, never challenging their own beliefs, or information source, and willingly believing anything against the opposition, or their own beliefs....

You vote religiously for one party, you are the problem...... even if you don't believe it.

So if I only vote along party lines, when do I ever listen to the media?

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by verslagen1 on 04/02/14 at 11:33:29

073E3932233825570 wrote:

but re-defined to this current model of lets be a winner! It angers people greatly when I refuse to vote for the "popular" or the "only one that can win".

+1

they're angry cause you're not helping them win.

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by Dane Allen on 04/02/14 at 13:42:23

Now that I've had time to get over the hilarity of it all I am able to address a few items from the original message. The most glaring is the massively arrogant assumption that Republican voters are voting against their self interest.

As if everyone's interest included being warehoused in crime ridden ghettos, subjected to the incomptetence of teachers unions, tossed the crumbs of subsistence from a bureaucrtatic wellfare system with the goal of getting dragged out to the polls once every couple years to vote for the "crack" dealers in office that you have been made dependant upon through strategic social decay.

Maybe voters saw how liberalsim/socialism/marxism has destroyed people in other places and decided that it was in their best interest to NOT END UP LIKE THEM. Maybe living like the ant is better than dying like the grasshopper. Maybe the plantation life isn't all it is cracked up to be.

Here's what your version of "voting for your self interest" gets you in California:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasdelbeccaro/2014/04/01/california-and-leland-yee-proof-one-party-rule-corrupts/

An exerpt-

"You would think a responsible party would do all they could to distance themselves from such corrupt politicians. Despite Republican attempts to expel them from the Senate, however, on a party line vote Democrats blocked that effort.

Of course, the reason the Democrats did that was to protect their super-majority in the Senate, which allows them to pass tax legislation without a single Republican vote. In other words, having absolute power is more important to them than any semblance of integrity."

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by raydawg on 04/02/14 at 16:53:28

So if I only vote along party lines, when do I ever listen to the media?

Not sure what you mean...... care to expand on your question?

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by shorty on 04/03/14 at 05:29:10

I smell a troll

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by Dane Allen on 04/03/14 at 05:31:20

Here's another tidbit on why people are not voting for democrats more...

http://news.yahoo.com/party-rich-congress-democrats-040228270--election.html

"But in Congress, the wealthiest among us are more likely to be represented by a Democrat than a Republican. Of the 10 richest House districts, only two have Republican congressmen. Democrats claim the top six, sprinkled along the East and West coasts. Most are in overwhelmingly Democratic states like New York and California."

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by verslagen1 on 04/03/14 at 08:51:34

5B48504D485E4E290 wrote:

So if I only vote along party lines, when do I ever listen to the media?

Not sure what you mean...... care to expand on your question?

Why would I need to listen to the media if all I had to do was show up at the polls and pick all the (insert party here) and walk away?

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by Dane Allen on 04/03/14 at 09:57:54

Another reason why I vote conservative, which is in my own best interest, that of my family (immediate and extended) and everyone I currently know or have met in my life. In it's entirety for the link-click impaired:

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303978304579475860515021286

Quote:

By Charles G. Koch
Updated April 2, 2014 7:47 p.m. ET

I have devoted most of my life to understanding the principles that enable people to improve their lives. It is those principles—the principles of a free society—that have shaped my life, my family, our company and America itself.

Unfortunately, the fundamental concepts of dignity, respect, equality before the law and personal freedom are under attack by the nation's own government. That's why, if we want to restore a free society and create greater well-being and opportunity for all Americans, we have no choice but to fight for those principles. I have been doing so for more than 50 years, primarily through educational efforts. It was only in the past decade that I realized the need to also engage in the political process.

A truly free society is based on a vision of respect for people and what they value. In a truly free society, any business that disrespects its customers will fail, and deserves to do so. The same should be true of any government that disrespects its citizens. The central belief and fatal conceit of the current administration is that you are incapable of running your own life, but those in power are capable of running it for you. This is the essence of big government and collectivism.

More than 200 years ago, Thomas Jefferson warned that this could happen. "The natural progress of things," Jefferson wrote, "is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." He knew that no government could possibly run citizens' lives for the better. The more government tries to control, the greater the disaster, as shown by the current health-care debacle. Collectivists (those who stand for government control of the means of production and how people live their lives) promise heaven but deliver hell. For them, the promised end justifies the means.

Instead of encouraging free and open debate, collectivists strive to discredit and intimidate opponents. They engage in character assassination. (I should know, as the almost daily target of their attacks.) This is the approach that Arthur Schopenhauer described in the 19th century, that Saul Alinsky famously advocated in the 20th, and that so many despots have infamously practiced. Such tactics are the antithesis of what is required for a free society—and a telltale sign that the collectivists do not have good answers.

Rather than try to understand my vision for a free society or accurately report the facts about Koch Industries, our critics would have you believe we're "un-American" and trying to "rig the system," that we're against "environmental protection" or eager to "end workplace safety standards." These falsehoods remind me of the late Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan's observation, "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Here are some facts about my philosophy and our company:

Koch companies employ 60,000 Americans, who make many thousands of products that Americans want and need. According to government figures, our employees and the 143,000 additional American jobs they support generate nearly $11.7 billion in compensation and benefits. About one-third of our U.S.-based employees are union members.

Koch employees have earned well over 700 awards for environmental, health and safety excellence since 2009, many of them from the Environmental Protection Agency and Occupational Safety and Health Administration. EPA officials have commended us for our "commitment to a cleaner environment" and called us "a model for other companies."

Our refineries have consistently ranked among the best in the nation for low per-barrel emissions. In 2012, our Total Case Incident Rate (an important safety measure) was 67% better than a Bureau of Labor Statistics average for peer industries. Even so, we have never rested on our laurels. We believe there is always room for innovation and improvement.

Far from trying to rig the system, I have spent decades opposing cronyism and all political favors, including mandates, subsidies and protective tariffs—even when we benefit from them. I believe that cronyism is nothing more than welfare for the rich and powerful, and should be abolished.

Koch Industries was the only major producer in the ethanol industry to argue for the demise of the ethanol tax credit in 2011. That government handout (which cost taxpayers billions) needlessly drove up food and fuel prices as well as other costs for consumers—many of whom were poor or otherwise disadvantaged. Now the mandate needs to go, so that consumers and the marketplace are the ones who decide the future of ethanol.

Instead of fostering a system that enables people to help themselves, America is now saddled with a system that destroys value, raises costs, hinders innovation and relegates millions of citizens to a life of poverty, dependency and hopelessness. This is what happens when elected officials believe that people's lives are better run by politicians and regulators than by the people themselves. Those in power fail to see that more government means less liberty, and liberty is the essence of what it means to be American. Love of liberty is the American ideal.

If more businesses (and elected officials) were to embrace a vision of creating real value for people in a principled way, our nation would be far better off—not just today, but for generations to come. I'm dedicated to fighting for that vision. I'm convinced most Americans believe it's worth fighting for, too.

Mr. Koch is chairman and CEO of Koch Industries.

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by Serowbot on 04/03/14 at 10:05:19

Well, the Koch brothers definatly vote in their own self interest...
;D...

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by WebsterMark on 04/03/14 at 10:43:25

As does George Soros..... I'm assuming you simply forgot to mention him as well.

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by Serowbot on 04/03/14 at 11:21:11

Really, Web?...
If you are of the 1%,.. your self interests includes lower taxes for the rich, corporate tax brakes, deregulation, and cutting entitlemnets...
Does that sound like liberal/democrat policy?...

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by WebsterMark on 04/03/14 at 11:42:50

I am not of the 1%, but I'm in favor of those things. Someone else getting to keep more of their money doesn't bother me any.

My point was if you were looking for an example of a billionaire who uses his money to swap public policy; you'd be far more accurate if you would have sited Soros rather than the Kochs. That's all.

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by Serowbot on 04/03/14 at 11:58:10

The topic is voting , for or against, self interest...

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by WebsterMark on 04/03/14 at 12:16:29

Why reference the Koch Brothers? Are you under the impression George Soros votes against his best interest?

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by Serowbot on 04/03/14 at 12:21:38

Dane just posted an article written by one of them...
I didn't pull their name out of a hat... ;D...

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by WebsterMark on 04/03/14 at 12:50:19

True, and I'm taking the opportunity to point out the left side of the political spectrum does not participate in self-sacrifice anymore than the right side of the spectrum; contrary to liberal-media-shaped-perception.

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by Dane Allen on 04/03/14 at 14:17:34

4B5D4A574F5A574C380 wrote:

The difference is conservatives and many Republicans want these things for everyone while liberals in similar positions want it only for themselves, rules for thee but not for me. How many Democrats (like Rangel and Geithner, for example) advocate for higher taxes and more government but dodge paying the taxes themselves?

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by North Country on 04/03/14 at 17:32:50

"conservatives and many Republicans want these things for everyone while liberals in similar positions want it only for themselves".

Mr. Allen, you are a card! ;D

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by Pine on 04/04/14 at 07:45:10

3C2A3D20382D203B4F0 wrote:

The topic is voting , for or against, self interest...

+1

Right now in MS we have a candidate running against the 43 year senator Thad Cochran. If nothing else he has force Thad to ACTUALLY run for his seat. Generally Thad does not set foot in MS. Thad has done good things for the state and has held powerful positions in the Senate, yet I would vote against him. Especially in light of who is supporting him. ( this ties DIRECTLY to the OP). Yes I would spitefully not support this powerful senator because of who is supporting him, and instead would throw in with a unproven young lawyer.

It depends on what one views as "my best interest". My own view has changed over the years.

So is it in "my best interest" to vote for someone who promises to bring home the bacon? Or is it in my best interest to vote for someone who promises to reduce the federal deficit? The two are for the most part mutually exclusive. Its very telling.. what one chooses in this.

Its all well and good to say" well they are going to build a military base, they might as well build it here". or is it? When the military wanted to CLOSE bases... oh the screaming and lamentation of the masses.. what about our economy???

I will let yall yammer on about those supporting what-ever party. The brokeness is not within either party. Its not about the good party or bad party. The brokeness is the idea of a two party system so corrupted and twisted that good people cant see where the brokeness is.

To once again quote a character from Tolkien:
"I am not altogether on anyones side, for I am not convinced that anyone is altogether on my side".

(cookie for naming character) :P

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by Dane Allen on 04/04/14 at 11:26:29

4C44455B5553360 wrote:

"conservatives and many Republicans want these things for everyone while liberals in similar positions want it only for themselves".

Mr. Allen, you are a card! ;D

A badge of honor!! ;)

You know of the limousine liberals of which I speak. I do not wish to be trapped and smothered within the collective. :(

I couldn't help but notice you took a select clip of a longer text from one of several posts and then attached a label to myself without ever addressing any of the points made to date. The assertion of voting against self interest was your argument that you presented to the community, does this mean you are retracting your observation/belief in this particular situation?

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by WebsterMark on 04/04/14 at 11:50:03

To once again quote a character from Tolkien:
"I am not altogether on anyones side, for I am not convinced that anyone is altogether on my side".

one of the trees; whose name escapes me at the moment. Wasn't the voice in the movie that older actor; John Houston / Huston.... something like that.

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by WebsterMark on 04/04/14 at 11:51:13

I couldn't help but notice you took a select clip of a longer text from one of several posts and then attached a label to myself without ever addressing any of the points made to date.

A Starlifter tactic.

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by Dane Allen on 04/04/14 at 15:13:00

497B7C6D6A7B6C537F6C751E0 wrote:

;D ;D ;D Very true!!

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by Dane Allen on 04/05/14 at 13:30:15

Well.....? OP, hello.....

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by North Country on 04/05/14 at 14:24:33

Mr. Allen, both Rangel and Geithner are a scourge on the Democratic Party. A crook is a crook, and crooks must go regardless of party affiliation.. Which means that Mr. Romney is also a crook having paid no taxes for ten years and stashing millions of dollars in offshore accounts. Thank God a crook of this magnitude is not our president.

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by Dane Allen on 04/07/14 at 17:44:38

40484957595F3A0 wrote:

I can get behind most of this sentiment except for the Romney part. There is a huge difference between the Romney situation and the others - in that Romney took advantage of rules that were put in place by people in the government long before to encourage him to act in the manner that he did. In other words, he broke no laws and followed all the rules, or he would be in jail.

Where, on the flip side, Rangel, Geithner and all the masses of others broke laws that would see a "regular" citizen such as you and me put away for decades. But due to their positions of power and influence they were able to make the penalty for their crime go away. This is where the "rules for thee, but not for me" sentiment comes from, politicians make the rules for us but do not follow them themselves.

Obama and his associates seem adept at avoiding the penaties associated with their crimes but, when a law-abiding citizen (you mentioned Romeny) follows the rules set in place, they are derided and denigrated as cheats and criminals. Another member and I went round and round because he fixated on a % of income paid by Romney in taxes and I focused on $ paid by Romney in taxes, an amount I would not earn in my lifetime let alone pay in a taxes. Something like 3-5 million in one year - in my book after the first million in taxes paid each year I think you can take a break. All that waste....

Title: Re: Why people will vote against their own interes
Post by Dane Allen on 04/07/14 at 17:54:50

4F4746585650350 wrote:

....Thank God a crook of this magnitude is not our president.

I think you need to re-evaluate your premiss (also (sp) premise)... ;)