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Message started by schleppy on 03/14/14 at 06:51:02

Title: Neglected 96 now runs, dies with throttle
Post by schleppy on 03/14/14 at 06:51:02

A few weeks back I picked up a very neglected 1996 LS650 (6000ish miles). The major issues were as follows:

- The bike had not been started in at least 6 years, and sat inside a shed (yay), under a tarp (boo).
- A critter ate the main harness under the tank, and the tank wiring. I swapped the main harness out for a 1998 one, that is all fixed. I also fixed the tank wiring myself. All is well there.
- The gas tank was full of 1/3 gas, 1/3 murky water. I completely drained that out and flushed out all the crap I could. There is a little rust in the tank, but not a worrying amount.
- Airbox had a lot of oil/water in the bottom of it, air filter was toast because of that. I removed the filter entirely (a new one is on order). Everything was cleaned and re-installed, except the filter which we left out for testing purposes.
- Engine oil appeared to be empty. In actuality the case was full of oil AND fuel. I drained the engine and put back in the proper amount of 10w40. All good here. And no, we never tried to crank over the bike with all that crap in it, thankfully.
- The jets in the carb were completely stopped up with gunk, and the float was covered in goo. I cleaned everything out, and got as much out as I could. The slide and diaphragm also appear to be in good shape, no tears, good seal on the diaphragm, needle was pretty clean. Overall the carb appears to be AOK inside now.
- With fresh gas in the tank and the rest of the issues sorted, we tested the petcock. No fuel flowing on the PRI setting, or any other setting (with vacuum). I'm not surprised. We grabbed a little fuel bottle and used that as our gas tank instead. Raptor petcock on order.

With the tiny "tank" hooked up, the bike fired right up and idled after two attempts. Not bad. No evil noises coming from the case (I'll check the cam tensioner soon to verify). Sadly though, whenever we touch the throttle at all the bike chokes out and dies.

At this point it seems like a carb/fuel issue. I'm guessing two things:
1.) The little bottle we were using as a "tank" wasn't flowing fuel fast enough. Maybe the raptor petcock on the real tank will help?
2.) There is still some part of the carb that is gummed up that I didn't get to. Any ideas where else I should look? I didn't check the TEV part of the carb, should I? Is there a total carb rebuild kit I can buy?
3.) Would the auto decompression system cause this? Could it be out of adjustment? This is a shot in the dark.

Thanks for reading LS650 experts! I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction.

Title: Re: Neglected 96 now runs, dies with throttle
Post by S-P on 03/14/14 at 07:19:51

7D6D66626B7E7E770E0 wrote:

- The jets in the carb were completely stopped up with gunk, and the float was covered in goo. I cleaned everything out, and got as much out as I could.

Title: Re: Neglected 96 now runs, dies with throttle
Post by schleppy on 03/14/14 at 07:23:29

67607162717A64756178140 wrote:

[quote author=7D6D66626B7E7E770E0 link=1394805062/0#0 date=1394805062]
- The jets in the carb were completely stopped up with gunk, and the float was covered in goo. I cleaned everything out, and got as much out as I could.

I think I'd start there. "As much as I could" probably wasn't very good. A complete tear down and dunk in a tank etc. is in order. Carbs are finicky to begin with, add a little gunk in a passage and they aren't happy.[/quote]

That's what I'm thinking. I got the float area and the diaphragm area very clean. I'm just not sure about some of the smaller passages. I also never removed the pilot air jet or the other air jet (main air jet?). Maybe there was gunk in there too.

Title: Re: Neglected 96 now runs, dies with throttle
Post by schleppy on 03/14/14 at 07:25:22

Also, is there a spring under the float needle? I was worried that there was and I lost it. I don't remember there being one.

Title: Re: Neglected 96 now runs, dies with throttle
Post by Dave on 03/14/14 at 07:50:22

You definitely need to take the carb main and pilot jets out and clean them, along with the little passages in the carb body. To do this properly the brass cover over the idle mixture screw will have to be drilled out, and the idle mixture screw removed.

There is an article in the Tech Section showing how to take a carb apart and clean it.
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=tech;action=display;num=1191899985

I have never taken the jets out of the TEV or top of the carb body.....it is most likely the jets down near the float bowl that are causing you problems.

Title: Re: Neglected 96 now runs, dies with throttle
Post by schleppy on 03/14/14 at 07:52:11

655E5344555942445F575A45360 wrote:

Lucky for me it looks like one of the two previous owners already removed the brass cap!

I'm going to take the carb apart again this weekend and go over everything one more time.

Can you guys suggest a good cleaner to use? Besides the diaphragm and the TEV, is there any other rubber in the carb I'd have to pull out?

Title: Re: Neglected 96 now runs, dies with throttle
Post by bobert_FSO on 03/14/14 at 09:14:47

Running without an air filter can upset the air/fuel mix. This might be contributing to the off-idle stalling.

Title: Re: Neglected 96 now runs, dies with throttle
Post by schleppy on 03/14/14 at 09:16:58

515C51564147330 wrote:

Running without an air filter can upset the air/fuel mix. This might be contributing to the off-idle stalling.

Agreed. I wondered about that myself.

It sounds like I really should have take more parts out of the carb to clean them. I have a feeling that is the major problem here. The lack of air filter certainly can't help.

Does anyone know exactly how many parts in the carb are rubber? I think I want to do the carb cleaner dip can to be sure I get everything, but I don't want to miss any tiny o-rings.

Title: Re: Neglected 96 now runs, dies with throttle
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/14/14 at 09:22:44

Just take it apart, you wont miss any rubber.. its not that complicated, theyre just finicky, & make sure the gas ya go back with is fresh, just regular gas,

Title: Re: Neglected 96 now runs, dies with throttle
Post by schleppy on 03/14/14 at 09:23:55

67787E7964635262526A78743F0D0 wrote:

Just take it apart, you wont miss any rubber.. its not that complicated, theyre just finicky, & make sure the gas ya go back with is fresh, just regular gas,

It was definitely fresh gas. I'm almost certain that I just need to clean some of the other passages better, and the idle mix area.

Title: Re: Neglected 96 now runs, dies with throttle
Post by verslagen1 on 03/14/14 at 09:27:46

there is an o-ring in the float valve seat.

interesting to note, the carb specs diagram does not show the idle mixture screw. And supposedly, there might be an o-ring in there to hold the adjustment.

Title: Re: Neglected 96 now runs, dies with throttle
Post by schleppy on 03/14/14 at 09:29:14

465542435C5157555E01300 wrote:

there is an o-ring in the float valve seat.

Thank you verslagen!

Title: Re: Neglected 96 now runs, dies with throttle
Post by old_rider on 03/14/14 at 14:16:17

You said "bottle" for your temp gas tank.... did you vent the bottle?

Title: Re: Neglected 96 now runs, dies with throttle
Post by schleppy on 03/14/14 at 14:18:50

282B23352E232235470 wrote:

You said "bottle" for your temp gas tank.... did you vent the bottle?

Yep, the bottle had a small vent. I suppose it's totally likely that the bottle may not have been flowing well enough. I'll test that when the new Petcock comes in.

Title: Re: Neglected 96 now runs, dies with throttle
Post by bobert_FSO on 03/14/14 at 14:56:02

Even if the bottle flows slow, once the float chamber fills up, you should be able to rev it higher than idle for a short while. At least until until the float level lowers too much.

Title: Re: Neglected 96 now runs, dies with throttle
Post by gizzo on 03/14/14 at 22:12:45

Get you some of this:
https://www.yamaha-motor.com/yamalube/categories/maintenance/21/shop-supply/322/details
I was dubious about it til I used it. Now I see the light. It's just amazing this stuff. You can put all your parts in it(best), or throw the complete carb in. It doesn't damage rubber parts. After use, you can put it in a container and keep it to use over and over.

Title: Re: Neglected 96 now runs, dies with throttle
Post by schleppy on 03/15/14 at 06:56:37

203A3E3C3D03322127213A373436530 wrote:

Thanks!

Title: Re: Neglected 96 now runs, dies with throttle
Post by schleppy on 03/20/14 at 16:10:44

She runs now! The engine sounds pretty smooth and quiet, which is amazing for a thumper. I'm hoping that also means I have a few weeks left to check on the cam chain tensioner :)

I'm pretty sure the issue was the float needle's "spring" being completely stuck. I also found some other gunk in one of the air jets.

The only thing left is to double check the float height. I'm pretty sure it's OK (I don't think I bumped it), but it's better safe than sorry. The Clymer notes on checking/setting the float level are a little confusing. Does anyone have a better illustration of how to measure that?

Title: Re: Neglected 96 now runs, dies with throttle
Post by Dave on 03/21/14 at 04:20:21

594942464F5A5A532A0 wrote:

The only thing left is to double check the float height. I'm pretty sure it's OK (I don't think I bumped it), but it's better safe than sorry. The Clymer notes on checking/setting the float level are a little confusing. Does anyone have a better illustration of how to measure that?

Title: Re: Neglected 96 now runs, dies with throttle
Post by schleppy on 03/21/14 at 10:04:08

Thanks Dave!