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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> The Ukraine /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1393960026 Message started by Paraquat on 03/04/14 at 11:07:06 |
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Title: The Ukraine Post by Paraquat on 03/04/14 at 11:07:06 I can't believe a thread hasn't been started about this yet. If it has then I missed it. Questions, comments, discussion? --Steve |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by Serowbot on 03/04/14 at 12:45:18 Putin is scary nuts... That's about all I got... :-?.. |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by Pine on 03/04/14 at 13:35:22 We need wambr or some such to shine a light. Mpesci shined some.. but in not in few days. JOG would be proud. So us currency wackos.. have been talking about the shaky ground the US dollar is on, it seems to come across as anti-obama... maybe sometimes it is..but really He isnt doing anything that wasnt started long before him. But I digress... So I found an article ( Washington Post I think) saying that someone ( not Putin directly) in the USSR responded to the USA threat of sanctions. Their response... do it and the US dollar will utterly crumble. They are prepared to leave the dollar as a world currency, not enforce us loans to USSR entities and if Europe gets uppity.. cut off the gas pipelines to there (which BTW transit Ukraine). (heres a different URL: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-04/putin-advisor-threatens-dumping-us-treasurys-abandoning-dollar-if-us-proceeds-sancti This is something the conspiracy nuts have been saying for a long while. Why did Bush go after Iraq? WMD?? no, they threatend to trade oil for gold (or not USD), Libia.. same thing... Syria.. same thing... US can go in and romp those pesky third world countries... Russia???? not so much!!!! This will be interesting... US cannot bully Russia, nor China for that matter. And those two are very large holders of US treasury notes. Let's not even think of what a real war would mean. |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by pgambr on 03/04/14 at 14:07:37 3523342931242932460 wrote:
I think he is the smartest guy in the room as well. |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by old_rider on 03/04/14 at 19:38:09 Interesting read on yahoo news.... http://news.yahoo.com/russia-warns-could-reduce-zero-economic-dependency-us-083926261.html?vp=1 Just go back to using rubles and don't pay us back our loans..... and that would throw us in the dark ages? One country?.... hmm are we really in that deep? |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by verslagen1 on 03/04/14 at 21:05:24 biggest impact is we loose the taxi service to space station. |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by old_rider on 03/04/14 at 21:17:24 405344455A5751535807360 wrote:
Dragon X is fixin' that problem, gonna be an auto contolled capsule for passengers. |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by Pine on 03/05/14 at 06:41:02 2320283E2528293E4C0 wrote:
Yes.... We have been using... most would agree abusing the fact that the US dollar is the worlds reserve currency. There are trillions of dollars out in the other countries... the US counts on that NOT coming home. But what happens when it does. What if every single dollar in the WORLD were to be packed up and shipped to the USA? Russia and China can dump their dollars... it will hurt. |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/05/14 at 08:38:33 China IS packing them up & shipping them back, slowly, so as to not ruin the value. Theyve decreased their purchases & started buying things here. As for Russia "Invading", all they did was go in & secure bases already there. Of course, such action will be reported as horrible aggression, Once again, destabilizations are not usually "organic" in nature. That whole Arab Spring thing was supported by someone.. Al CIAduhh has their flag over Libya,, how did that happen? Anyone who believes we are some Worlds Boy Scout is failing to actually LOOK at what we really do., Our military is the thug arm of the global elite, just like Mafia Muscle., We have been taken over. OUr foreign policy doesnt reflect the needs of America, it represents the needs of the global elite, |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by Paraquat on 03/05/14 at 11:12:46 While we will have more to say about the disastrous December TIC data shortly, which was released early today, and which showed a dramatic plunge in foreign purchases of US securities in December - the month when the S&P soared to all time highs and when everyone was panicking about the 3% barrier in the 10 Year being breached and resulting in a selloff in Tsy paper - one thing stands out. The chart below shows holdings of Chinese Treasurys (pending revision of course, as the Treasury department is quite fond of ajdusting this data series with annual regularity): in a nutshell, Chinese Treasury holdings plunged by the most in two years, after China offloaded some $48 billion in paper, bringing its total to only $1268.9 billion, down from $1316.7 billion, and back to a level last seen in March 2013! http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-18/china-sells-second-largest-amount-us-treasurys-december-and-guess-who-comes-rescue They aren't moving slowly enough to go undetected. --Steve |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by PerrydaSavage on 03/05/14 at 13:41:42 Some similarities between Hitler's pre-WW2 activity in Europe and Putin' recent activity in the Ukraine ... Putin is ex-KGB and still a "Soviet" at heart ... I fear if we ignore and/or appease him, we just might regret it in the way that Chamberlain and Stalin regretted appeasing Hitler ... |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/05/14 at 18:39:33 My read on Putins actions is that so far all he has done is secure his existing installations. Same as we would do if we had bases in an area where the political climate started getting uneasy. Just like Ahmadinejad was "quoted" as saying Israel needed to be blown off the map, which was not at all what he said,, Our media is used to freak us out, |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by Serowbot on 03/05/14 at 22:45:40 Noop,.. that ain't all... troops have gone beyond the base... We're no better,... we'd have done the same... That don't make it right... it's just a thin ice we stand on when we condemn it... Russia needs that port access... it's a fairly landlocked country (at least the westward side)... We should stay out of it... Ukraine would be smart to negotiate some sort of lease agreement... (they won't win, and we won't either)... Not sayin' we couldn't, but we won't... a cornered dog is gonna' bite... That water access is too valuable to Putin... Russia's Suez/Panama Canal... We rent ours... :-?... |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by Pine on 03/06/14 at 07:43:03 5E485F425A4F42592D0 wrote:
Agreed 100% While it sucks for Ukraine, this is Putins front yard. USA should let this dog to his bone. |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by Dane Allen on 03/06/14 at 10:44:07 787B73657E737265170 wrote:
Dragon X is fixin' that problem, gonna be an auto contolled capsule for passengers.[/quote] I believe that is called a cannonball... ;D |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by verslagen1 on 03/06/14 at 11:05:01 I believe mercury 7 astronuts called it 'spam in a can' |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by wambr on 03/07/14 at 06:06:10 you guys wanted to hear from me as from the original source? hmm.. this is not just speak different languages. with difficulty translating and understanding the way you think.. in General of all the things that you've written here is all quite truthfully and correctly. I don't want to explain anything from areas of big politics-this could lead to worse in a corner and is unlikely to have a positive effect.. I just want scusate I don't like it. as communicate among themselves Ukrainians. I don't like. the fact that in Western Ukraine hate Russian and don't like Eastern Ukrainians(this objective is the sad truth. and I just don't know what you say and write your media). and even if I can recommend someone from Ukrainian leaders or ordinary people to settle relations with neo-nationalists, in any case it will be only and only my opinions. no obligation, to retaliatory action. Yes, I don't like their attitude and their views, but this is the internal affair of Ukraine and we have no right to impose their views. frankly I didn't understand what grew that the Ukrainian crisis... |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by verslagen1 on 03/07/14 at 09:12:01 from a brief report, boris was from ukrain, when elected, gave crimea to ukrain. obviously, ussr liked to create division among states to keep them in discord. This is more likely. What's funny to me is the crimea has their own parliament. They're set up as 2 separate countries anyway. |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by wambr on 03/07/14 at 10:35:12 well, not quite so Versy... Nikita Khrushchev gave Crimea to Ukraine..although not the point.. I think that is more important than the desire of the people of Crimea to live... and news reports last time(in our media) say quite hard against neo-nationalists from the Western regions of Ukraine in respect to Russian-speaking residents. including in the Crimea. this is reminiscent of Germany in 1933. or not? |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by pgambr on 03/07/14 at 16:51:35 77616D6272000 wrote:
I suspect the genuine cause stems from decades of Soviet occupation and persecution. The roots go back to 1932 & 1933 when the Soviets exercised the Holodomor or "Great Famine." Estimates very but approximately 7 million people were starved to death during those years because they didn’t bend to the will of Soviets. During WW2 many Ukraine’s fought alongside the Russians; however, many still remembered the purges of the early 30’s. A nationalist group formed the Ukrainian Insurgent Army who fought the Soviets alongside the Nazis. This has been in the making for three generations. I’m surprised the western history books didn’t offer more regarding Soviet history considering we had the cold war for nearly 44 years. |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by wambr on 03/07/14 at 21:23:38 the Holodomor? it's just ideological scary tale that was born during the cold war... in 30-ies of the last century the hunger was not in Ukraine but all I have is on the banks of the Volga. I remember the stories from my grandmother. they took away almost all of that from the link in Ukraine. in the 1930s in Ukraine from Samara was sent 1257 wagons with grain. and in the Samara region were crop failures in 1921-1923, 1927-1931, 1934-1936. this is a historical fact. so the stories that "Muscovites" organized the Holodomor in Ukraine-full groundless nonsense, while severely "nested" in thoughts not quite knowledgeable people about that. |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by WD on 03/07/14 at 23:56:54 I'm mad at Putin for "cutting off sales of Soviet era bulk 7.62x39 ammunition to the USA". One supplier stateside sold out of several hundred thousand rounds in under 10 hours, on a rumor. That caliber had just gotten back into the sales chain in almost tolerable numbers... Anybody who still thinks the USD is worth the toilet paper it is printed on is in for a rude awakening. It has NO tangible backing, not precious metals, not petroleum, not timber, not even agricultural production. It is paper, period. Putin compared Obama to playing chess with a pigeon. The pigeon struts around the board, randomly knocking over pieces and sh**ting, and thinks he has won... Crimea is of no strategic interest to the USA. Regardless of what the talking heads on the "telavivision" say. |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by mpescatori on 03/08/14 at 08:57:23 http://https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/t1/1966863_601587536594463_1177965932_n.png And, now, one small piece of advice. Stay out of it. Read the fine print. Do your homework. Investigate and research and see who's who in the political pantomime in the Ukraine. Investigate and see when the Crimea became Russian, then Ukrainian, then Russian again, and why, and how (and no, it wasn't in 1932... and never mind Wikipedia) Imagine that piece of Michigan inhabited by ethnic Wisonsinians declaring they want to be "Wisconsin"... Remember the terrible tragedy of ethnic Albanians immigrating from Albania into Kosovo to "prove" to the West" (that means you guys) that "Kosova (with an "a") is Albanian, not Serbian... ...the tragedy being that that ethnicity which fought against and died against the Turks in 1389, a Serbian and Christian Alamo against the Muslim invaders, was betrayed by the Bible thumpers who won't read history. Next thing you know, by your very own standards... someone might take another shot at Ft.Sumter... ...if you know what I mean... Best regards, :-[ |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by pgambr on 03/08/14 at 15:35:47 2E38343B2B590 wrote:
Interesting, thanks for clarifying. |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by wambr on 03/08/14 at 21:05:49 not for nothing... :) that's why I cannot understand the reason for the hostility of the Western Ukrainians to the East. after all, this is the one people. one country... they in General have nothing to share... |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by Pine on 03/10/14 at 07:23:00 Best thread ever! Thanks guys. I may not know anything about Russian history, but at least I get to hear from those that do, and can form an opinion on that. I am pretty sure, I am more knowledgeable on this than 99% of congress. 6"You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. Matt 24:6 America, needs to keep their overlong noses out of all this. |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/16/14 at 15:41:02 If Russia went into the Philippines & said they didnt accept the outcome of a vote there & told us we needed to be out of there ":tomorrow", how would we respond? We have exactly ZERO business in any of it. A former military guy being interviewed said he see this as a HUGE distraction & an attempt at locking some of Russias troops down so we can go back & go after Syria & Iran.. The Global Elite are using Nato & our military once again,, We are heading for disaster & the potential for nukes is off the charts,, http://www.testosteronepit.com/home/2014/3/15/kremlin-if-the-us-tries-to-hurt-russias-economy-russia-will.html Excerpts From the economic point of view, everyone should get ready for tough actions from Moscow. Sergei Glazyev, the most hardline of Putin’s advisors, sketched the retaliation strategy: Drop the dollar, sell US Treasuries, encourage Russian companies to default on their dollar-denominated debts, and create an alternative currency system (reference currency) with the BRICS and hydrocarbon producers like Venezuela and Iran. ********************* Washington’s decision to release a minuscule 5 million barrels of oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve caused the price of oil to tank – a direct attack on the main revenue source of the Russian government, and a sign that Washington is willing to hit where it hurts the most [read a trader’s lament.... Commodity Markets Will Be Used As A Weapon Against The Putin Regime, Starting Now]. Russia instantly retaliated, it seems. Suddenly, there was a mysterious mega-plunge of $104.5 billion in US Treasuries held in custody by the Federal Reserve during the reporting week ended March 12. It brought the balance down to $2.86 trillion. These securities are owned by foreign countries. As of the US Treasury’s December statement, the most recent available, the Fed held $138.6 billion in Treasuries that belonged to Russia – down by $22.9 billion from a year earlier. The mega-plunge of $104.5 billion? No data is available yet to confirm these securities belonged to Russia. And if they did, it’s unlikely that Russia dumped them on the market, but it could have transferred them to another banking center, such as Luxemburg, to get them out of reach of the US government, and be able to dump them at an opportune moment. ******************** “Why should we have dollar contracts with China, India, Turkey?” he said. “Why do we need this? We must have contracts in national currencies. And this applies to energy and other spheres.” The focus would be on Russian oil and gas companies. “They must be braver in signing contracts in rubles and the currencies of partner-countries,” he said. “I think now there is an additional impetus to finally finish this job.” And the “currency reserve policy” would need some adjustment with maximum focus on “local currencies”; it was the normal way, he said. In Mândr[ch259][ch351]escu’s analysis, Ulyukaev was outlining an attack on the petrodollar system and the enormous advantages it confers on the US, with the goal of creating parallel petro-currencies. Links in the article, too In short,, our dollar is a fragile thing and our foreign policy hasnt done anything to create friends. The post WWII deal that made our dollar so important is not looking like something we can depend on any more. When the rest of the world decides our dollars arent necessary for their international trade, those dollars they are currently using for trade will come home, creating an inflation rate that is gonna hurt us, real bad. Hell,, no worries,, we will start a war if that looks like its gonna happen,, So far, inside our national boundaries we havent seen the pain of warfare since before ICBMs & heavy bombers. That may not last.. Wanna hear what a Russian journalist says? http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/16/ukraine-crisis-russia-kiselyov-idUSL6N0MD0P920140316?feedType=RSS&virtualBrandChannel=11563 Links in article Russia can turn US to radioactive ash - Kremlin-backed journalist Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:07pm EDT 0 Comments inShare Share this Related Topics Cyclical Consumer Goods » * TV anchor is Kremlin's pick to head new agency * Russian media steps up war of words over Crimea By Lidia Kelly MOSCOW, March 16 (Reuters) - A Kremlin-backed journalist issued a stark warning to the United States about Moscow's nuclear capabilities on Sunday as the White House threatened sanctions over Crimea's referendum on union with Russia. "Russia is the only country in the world that is realistically capable of turning the United States into radioactive ash," television presenter Dmitry Kiselyov said on his weekly current affairs show. Behind him was a backdrop of a mushroom cloud following a nuclear blast. Kiselyov was named by President Vladimir Putin in December as the head of a new state news agency whose task will be to portray Russia in the best possible light. His remarks took a propaganda war over events in Ukraine to a new level as tensions rise in the East-West standoff over Crimea, a southern Ukrainian region which is now in Russian forces' hands and voted on Sunday on union with Russia. Russian television showed images of ethnic Russians in Crimea dancing, singing and celebrating the referendum but followed them with accusations that Kiev's new authorities and the West have allowed ultra-nationalists to attack Russian-speakers in eastern Ukraine. Kiev and the West blame the violence in eastern Ukraine on pro-Russian groups and say the Crimea referendum is illegitimate. The United States has warned of imminent sanctions against Moscow. OUTSPOKEN COMMENTS Read commentrs |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by Shocker on 03/16/14 at 17:37:23 Our populace is too drained for another continuous fight. They won't support it. Russia is just on edge with us as a front to ensure our populace won't support a fight. He knows he can't win a heads-up fight against us if we're all in. It would be a no contest. |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by RatdogWillie on 03/16/14 at 18:39:02 7D7E76607B767760120 wrote:
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by Pine on 03/17/14 at 08:09:50 4E7D6878737B4B75707075791C0 wrote:
[/quote] /agree I just listened to a utube.. with a very simple position: All Russia has to do is.. accept any currency except dollars.. and petro-dollar breaks. No gold, no missiles... just accept everyone's currency. It would be actually be CHEAPER for Europe to buy Russian gas and oil with Euros. Why would EU back anything other having Russia sell for euros. Putin does not have to make military threats. He has the bigger stick. Kerry needs to STFU and come home, maybe he could referee a little league game somewhere. |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/17/14 at 10:09:57 WHAAAT!? I dont want Lurch with the kids,, |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by pgambr on 03/17/14 at 10:19:56 5B444245585F6E5E6E56444803310 wrote:
That's pretty good. I refer to him as potato head, for multiple reasons. What happened to democracy and letting the people decide? Only when convenient I suppose. |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by pgambr on 03/17/14 at 11:18:50 You got to see this Russian FSB training. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rI01qKAqYts |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 03/17/14 at 13:14:09 For some reason, in 1861 when a considerable number of Americans wanted to secede from the Union, we fought a war over that one too. So much for democracy and the will for self determination. |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by wambr on 03/17/14 at 22:35:46 7661676B6474060 wrote:
funny video for very young children. shooters probably toy guns-otherwise he should lie with traumatic shock and injury to the sternum( provided that he is a bullet-proof vest) because the force of the blow from a bullet equivalent to blow 15kg sledgehammer with strong momentum. and teaching methodology is not characteristic of Russian FSB. this not a russian FSB.it's a bad clowns ;D |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by mpescatori on 03/18/14 at 02:10:53 May I suggest that we all read the history of Hawaii and how the Kingdom of Hawaii, a free and sovereign state, became annexed to the USA. Then, may I suggest we read the history of Texas, of how it was a Mexican State and how it became a Territory, then a State of the Union. Just to name two US-based historical precedents. Then may I suggest we read the history of Moldavia (Moldova to many) and how the "Republic of Trans-Dnistria" came to be. Then may I suggest we read the history of Serbia and how Kosovo (Kosova to the Albanians) happened to be "declared" an autonomous political entity. Then may I suggest we read the history of Bosnia-Herzegovina and how the the "Republika Srpska" came to be. In all (ALL) these circumstances, a people not indigenous to the area immigrated (or, was encouraged to immigrate by a larger, more powerful State) until the ethnic proportions were reversed, and a "new, peaceful" political entity was created - often in the face of International Law. Oh... there are other case studies available... - Schleswig-Holstein, a Danish Province which was annexed by Germany at the dawn of the Great War (ethnic German majority) - Northern Ireland, where the English insisted to maintain rule although "freedom" (=sovereignty) had been acknowledged to the rest of the land, which became the Republic of Ireland (Eire) - Northern (Turkish) Cyprus (has anybody done anything about that ?) - Spanish Sahara being granted independence from Spain, and invaded overnight by Morocco All this but simply to witness that what is happening in the Crimea is "ordinary routine" if analyzed with the eyes of history, which ignores weeks and months but lives by "century-long minutes"... ...and I only analyzed that which has direct impact on Europe ! I am now waiting for somebody to wave a handfull of Euros in the face of ethnic german "russians" in Kaliningrad (which was called Koenigsberg for centuries and was one of the richest ports of the Hansa League) and see what happens there... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koenigsberg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaliningrad http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/21/Map_of_Russia_-_Kaliningrad_Oblast_%282008-03%29.svg/800px-Map_of_Russia_-_Kaliningrad_Oblast_%282008-03%29.svg.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/75/Teutonic_state_1466.png/741px-Teutonic_state_1466.png Can you find Koenigsberg in this map of the Teutonic State in 1466 ? Why on earth should it WANT to be (or stay) russian ??? :-? See what I mean ? |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by pgambr on 03/18/14 at 03:58:31 Quote:
You are correct. I always wondered how Russia got a little piece of Poland on the Baltic Sea even after "The Wall Came Down." Is that correct that Germany blamed the invasion of Poland in WW2 because of an event that happened in Danzig against ethic Germans? I studied the Yugoslav Wars and that was extremely complicated. That is for another thread though. |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by pgambr on 03/18/14 at 06:03:43 “Comrade Obama, what should those who have neither accounts nor property abroad do? Have you not thought about it?” Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin tweeted. “I think the decree of the President of the United States was written by some joker.” http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/03/17/russian-deputy-prime-ministers-public-response-to-comrade-obama-over-sanctions-really-says-it-all/ |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by mpescatori on 03/18/14 at 06:42:07 554244484757250 wrote:
Sorry, PGAMBR, you are wrong. Koeningsberg was NOT a little piece of Poland, it was a little piece of GERMANY. Go back to a post of mine from about a week ago; I explained that there is a large portion of the State of Michigan which belongs, geographically speaking, to Wisconsin. Hence, all those living there "migrated through Wisconsin". Let's call them "Michigan Wisconsinians"... ...should it ever happen that income tax laws and healthcare in Wisconsin are definitely preferable to those in Michigan, wouldn't YOU like to "vote and improve the situation"? Why should those living in the Kaliningrad enclave, who are all (but a minority) ethnic germans, want to continue living as russians? Why should the Crimea, which was home of the Imperial Fleet of the Black Sea since the times of the Czars, hence artificially russian (and not tatar, nor ukrainian) because of mass immigration of the families of the navy crews... ...why should it be labeled "ukrainian"? I am not throwing gasoline to the fire, nor am I advocating anything. I am analyzing both sides of the issue. It is far too easy to stay on the Ukrainian side, without looking at history. |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by wambr on 03/18/14 at 10:35:02 why none of you guys haven't bothered to look at Ukraine as well say at borders before 1917? http://rubezhnoe.org.ua/_pu/20/17543786.jpg turns out that Ukraine has conquered the Western part(the Lviv oblast) in Poland... the southern(Odessa region, Kherson region) at the then Bessarabia, Crimea from the Russian Empire... and you say Russia is the aggressor and draw cards of the 15th century... somehow it is not logical all of this.. I'm sorry. what card with inscriptions in Russian. |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by mpescatori on 03/18/14 at 11:02:29 No need to be sorry, WAMBR, no problem. Unfortunately our American friends are not accustomed to national borders shifting at the end of every war - and that often meant people migrating because they were driven out, too. We in Europe have a long understanding about this, but you have to experience it "on your family" (not necessarily on yourself, but tales by the grandparents is often enough) in order to understand. I also see modern-day Dnepropetrovskwa called Ekaterinoslav ? ... and Yosovka is now called Donetsk ? What about Elizabetoslav ? Is it now "Kirovograd" or "Nonoukrainka" ? To all the US based riders and readers... there is a sad tradition of force emigration of the "old dwellers" of a city, mass immigration of "new dwellers" and changing the city name in order to delete any old sense of national identity. See the Oder-Neisse line when the Allies decided to move Russian, Polish and German borders alla few hundred miles west in 1946. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2d/Vertreibungsgebiet.jpg/797px-Vertreibungsgebiet.jpg The "Curzon Line" gave East Poland to the Soviet Union (why ? THEY had attacked Poland in the first place!) and gave all of East Prussia to the USSR as well. Also, the Polish-German border was moved west and gave all of the shaded area to Poland. I leave you to imagine the force emigration, persecutions and mass murders which ensued. If the prioce of peace is a Russian Crimea... hey! That's exactly what it was until 1917 !!! Or... should we give Australia back to the Aborigenes and South Africa back to the Zulus... ? |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by Pine on 03/18/14 at 11:48:09 Indeed... US history is not immune to evils of the powerful. You left off the the fact that the North American continent wasn't exactly devoid of natives ( overly kind of you). ;D But it all pretty much goes back to my original feeling... US should keep their nose out of this. It's not "winable", there is not to be "an end", and who is right or wrong... changes with how far back one wants to go. Europe is simply too old ( too steeped in history) and too dynamic for western politicians. I would also put forward, that no matter what things are like this month, in 6 months it will be different, and within 2 years.. different yet again. I base this on the evidence that Ukraine was not doing all that well economically anyway. The smartest (economic) move for MANY there would be to fold back into Russia. Putin does not have to "attack" anyone. he simply has to bide his time. (In the mean time let the stupid Americans send billions in aid). |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by mpescatori on 03/19/14 at 01:55:05 073E3932233825570 wrote:
Who, me ? Naaah... just wanted to avoid Webstermark's comments on my alleged "being antiamerican" :-X Quote:
Next 4th July you will celebrate 238 years of USA. Next Thanksgiving you will celebrate 392 years since the Pilgrim Fathers' first Thanksgiving (they landed in 1621, so it must have been celebrated in 1622) Next 21 April Rome will celebrate its (official) 2767 birthday, and it isn't even the oldest city in Italy. The Etruscans were there already, as were other peoples. Far too many times "industrial / economic power" is mistaken for "heritage / experience". Quote:
Ukrainians have little love lost for Russians, a bit like the English and the Scots - or Savage riders and HOGs ;D yes, the Ukraine was (IS) not as well off as Russia, but that is not entirely the Ukraine's fault. It was a specific industrial strategy of the USSR to keep inportant heavy industry separated in many "specialized" plants, so that in order to build... a tank... one factory would build engines, one would build the turret, one the chassis, one the guns... and one to assemble it all into a working tank. They were all kept thousands of miles apart. That way, nobody had the capacity to say "we wil declare independence, and the tanks we build will vouch for us". Furthermore, one of the diplomatic conditions discussed and approved in Moscow when the Ukraine split from the USSR quite peacefully was that the 5th Russian Fleet of the Black Sea would still have the Crimea as its home base, with all Soviet (=Russian) privileges acknowledged to Navy crews and their families. Imagine, it was like UK and US Ambassadors at the Peace talks in 1783 saying "OK, you Rebels, YOU get the 13 Colonies, BUT His Majesty's Royal Navy gets to keep Norfolk Harbor and all the crew and their families keep the homes and English privileges". WAMBR's map also shed a LOT of light on past European history. Check this out. [media]http://loiter.co/v/watch-as-1000years-of-european-boarders-change/[/media] http://loiter.co/v/watch-as-1000years-of-european-boarders-change/ My workplace's new internet filters do not allow me to see streaming media, so I pasted the above link both as "media" and "URL". I can't see it from here, but I do hope it proves interesting. By the way... it's "border", not "boarder"; a "boarder" is one who rents a room for "room and board", generally breakfast and supper. My parting shot: Given European history from 1750 (including the French&Indian War) if the 13 Colonies had been, say, not across an entire ocean, but only 2 or 3 days' sailing away from mainland Europe... or in an otherwise uninhabited Scandinavia... ...do you really believe no other European nation would have tried taking a shot at you? Do you really believe the War of 1812 would have ended with a draw between UK and US ? Do you really believe nobody would have attempted to seize the opportunity in 1865, when both USA and CSA were at their last stand ? Again, nothing against you, just food for thought. Poland and Russia, Germany and Poland, Austria and Hungary and Serbia, Romania and Turkey, France and Germany, France and England, England and Scotland, England and Spain, France and Spain... ...they were all at each other's throats, literally, ever since the end of the Crusades... ...not to mention that Italy was so plumb rich with commerce with the Middle and Far East that they were ALL taking turns sending their armies south to loot and plunder... :-X |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by raydawg on 03/19/14 at 04:00:52 I wonder if the people of southern California, given your observation mpescatori of how people migrate to a local, if given the chance, democracy-wise, would vote to break away from the northern parts and the union itself and return to Mexico..... of course La Raza needs no vote, yet. It might seem far fetched to many, but goggle La Raza and see for yourself the desire by the radical members to get back what was once theirs..... People of the USA are very ignorant, as you report, to many elements of the rest of the world, and how it works. When coupled with arrogance, it can become a dangerous mindset..... |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by Paraquat on 03/19/14 at 06:21:42 A New Cold War? Ukraine Violence Escalates, Leaked Tape Suggests U.S. Was Plotting Coup Video Last night the country's embattled president and the opposition leaders demanding his resignation called for a truce and negotiations to try to resolve Ukraine's political crisis. But hours later, armed protesters attempted to retake Independence Square sparking another day of deadly violence. At least 50 people have died since Tuesday in the bloodiest period of Ukraine's 22-year post-Soviet history. While President Obama has vowed to "continue to engage all sides" a recently leaked audio recording between two top U.S. officials reveal the Obama administration has been secretly plotting with the opposition. Posted February 20, 2014 http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37701.htm The tape is in the link. --Steve |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by mpescatori on 03/19/14 at 11:38:50 55465E43465040270 wrote:
That's a rather raw way of putting it. Please bear in mind I studied 3rd-8th grade in the US and when I returned back "home" (I really really felt like "a stranger in my own home") I realized all I had been studying was somehow confined between the Atlantic Coast and the Mississippi River, except for Social Studies when we "miraculously" did a fast forward and learned about WW1. Even then, it was "uh, Yoo-ropeans were battling it out and they sunk the Lusitania so we went in and helped the English and we won, hooray!" Kinda limited way of telling it. Indeed, in most cowboy films there's always some odd reference to "the Armenian Jew with a rugbag"; Funny, Armenians are among the most ancient Christians around and there's precious few Jews in Armenia at all! And... nobody knew where Armenia was, I had to look it up in the encyclopiedia to find out - but only because my curiosity egged me to. I finally saw the animation with the "border shift", unfortunately it's really really too fast, and often the borders appear to shift when it's really just a new dynasty taking over. Still, I don't know about SoCal seceding from California, but... imagine... (imagine...you can! says a commercial with George Clooney) Imagine if SoCal really DID vote to secede, not because there's anything to gain from it, but because that would allow the... 60-odd% of the local population to reunite with the rest of their families just across the border... ...so the State of California looks it up in the State Constitution, and the US Federal Government looks it up in the Constitution of the United States, and [imagine, it's all make believe] and they all realize there's a loophole and a "chink" in the wording that actually allows Counties to secede from the State... So nobody can do anything about it unless they want a new Civil War to ensue, and they agree that So.Cal. secedes from the State of California BUT the USNavy stationed in San Diego get to stay and keep all their "US privileges". Considering it's all make believe, it's a valid assumption. Now imagine that the USNavy crew and their families and all the local contractors and all the local businesses realize there's nothing to be gained by switching to the Peso (new local currency), and demand to stay "American" and they take to the streets chanting "Wa-shing-ton!Wa-shing-ton!Wa-shing-ton!" So riots break out until somebody decides the safest and most peaceful bet is to hold elections, and lo and behold, the "Loyalist Americans" win. But the Mexican Provisional Administration cries FOUL! and the UN impose sanctions on Washington. Crazy, isn't it ? Imagine... you can... [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GzRiYnHh_Y[/media] ;) |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by raydawg on 03/19/14 at 16:57:25 Raw.....not really, if you take the definition as such: lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned, lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact. I believe we have been sheltered from many of the things the effect so many others around the world. On a personal level I presently work with quite a few people who came from Asia. The stories they tell me of the strife and just surviving in a place where there was no sense of "fairness" (my word) I still shake my head in disbelief for I have nothing to compare it to, or I am ignorant to the facts of that type of life ;D |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by Pine on 03/20/14 at 07:51:16 I saw a fun vid.... had a former Russian speaking about this topic. His take is that, in the end US needs Russia much more than the other way around. Pretty much that same things we have discussed here. He had nothing for the "nationalists". Then he mentioned this little factoid: US military in Afghanistan... seems their pull back route is either through Russian territory (common, safe) or Pakistan (yeah not so good). Or we could try another Saigon (get another chopper!). Its just a wee factoid.. but yeah... really, lets not piss off Putin. The more TV "news" I watch the more I equate them with really bad "reality TV". My new fear is... do the politicians really believe whats on TV? Its crap!!!!! |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by pgambr on 03/25/14 at 05:03:34 Putin is playing hard ball now. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-23/russia-returns-favor-sees-chinese-yuan-world-reserve-currency http://www.cnbc.com/id/101450365 |
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Title: US natural gas could be the "whodunnit" Post by mpescatori on 03/25/14 at 06:53:42 Let's look at things from a new, unusual perspective. Saddam Hussein was a US protegè, until he started selling oil for Euros; the US$ was uneasy, and Iraq was delegitimized and Saddam "erased". Muammar Qadafi was a soviet protegè, until he trained one terrorist too many, was bombed, and started playing nice guy. But he too started selling oil for Euros, and the US$ was uneasy, and Lybia was delegitimized, and Qadafi "erased". The United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi Arabia are stinking rich with oil, but their human rights record stinks (only ones who still legalize human slavery) and Islamic fundamentalism is actually funded by... you know... :-X So the US are uneasy, and someone might need to be... you know... :-X Then came Putin... He too is selling natural gas to Europe for Euros, and the US aren't overwhelmingly happy. The US tried plaing the "let's get the Ukraine to join NATO!" card, but it backfired. The US backed Premier Yulia Timoshenko, an ethnic Ukrainian, and opposed Premier Viktor Yanukovich, an ethnic Russian. What happened next were street protesters in numbers which varied and depended on nationality and political faction of the individual reporter. I leave google surfing to you, but you understand what I mean: one man's million people is another man's 1000 stragglers... Come the Crimea: the Crimea has been politically and ethnically russian ever since the 1st Crusade, and became Ukrainian only since 1917 to last month. When the Ukraine petitioned the Soviet Government in Moscow for independence, one of the conditions was : "OK, but the Soviet (russian) 5th Fleet gets to stay (in the Crimea)" ...because that's where it had always been ever since Czar Peter the Great, to battle against the very strong and expert Turkish Navy. If Europe wag their "bad boy" finger at Putin, all he has to do is turn off the gas. European reserves are good for 2-4 weeks, after which... never mind heating (it's april) but what about cooking ??? :P Here cometh the Goode Olde United States to the rescue, says you: WE will sell you our gas ! ::) Across the ocean? Bottled, in ships? :-? It'll be much more expensive, but we'll have no choice... like comparing bottled water to tap water ... So, it's a WIN-WIN situation (to the US) : - you get to sell american natural gas to Europe, and make money, - you steal more and more of the market share of fossil fuels from the Middle East, and make money, - you sell armaments to European Nations who see the Middle East swaying under stronger and stronger fundamentalism... because they're getting poorer... and make even more money... ... and we get to fight a war we never even asked for... :-X ... OR ... Europe realizes that the Crimea is a Russian-Ukrainian problem, sees no reason to escalate, and see no reason why the US should raise such a hornet's nest, when it was the US in the first place who insisted "we" should all internationally recognize Kosovo, or Croatia, or Slovenia, or Bosnia... as sovereign nations, independent from Yugoslavia... ...or why should Taiwan be independent from PRC... ...or why North and South Korea should not be united... ...and so on and so forth... Regards, |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/25/14 at 08:32:43 http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-24/ukraine-leader-new-leaked-recording-8-million-russians-ukraine-must-be-killed-nuclea This gal is somethin else.. |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by pgambr on 03/25/14 at 16:27:49 Quote:
I read before they put her in jail, they fined her 500 million. Although, I don't know the circumstances or politics. One you guys on the other side of the pond please feel free to interject. |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/26/14 at 08:08:10 So, youve been keeping up with Ukraine? Youd better be good at spotting lies & reading between the lines.. heres a 10 minute clip that lays it out nicely,.& points out lie after lie.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWkfpGCAAuw#t=609 |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by wambr on 03/28/14 at 10:22:42 it's hard to keep up with the translation.. sorry, but I had no time..and I don't know what was said...but I can't understand and accept the reality in which representatives of neo-Nazis living in the Western part of Ukraine bullied on the veterans of world war 2.. I can understand the dislike these people to "Soviet power"..but why humiliate people who saved the ancestors of these young mothercrappity smackers(sorry to be so blunt) from the horrors of fascism? how can this be allowed? can of course emotions slightly overwhelmed me.. correct me if I said something not in the topic.. |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by Doug B on 03/28/14 at 13:23:58 I have spent very little time on this site(for the past six months - or ever), so it may have been discussed at length. However, I was shocked two days ago when I saw a list of the richest people in the world, and Putin was right behind Bill Gates(I'm glad he lives in my state) at 70-some odd billion - yes that is with a "B". Now how did he acquire that much wealth(Gee I don't know Beave - Gee Wally). |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/28/14 at 19:21:17 Of course, the Rothschild name was at the top o that list, right? NO??? Well,, the list isnt accurate then, |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by mpescatori on 03/30/14 at 15:08:50 5D4244435E5968586850424E05370 wrote:
Thank you. Now hear this, now hear this... [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKfdfbwkm5I[/media] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWkfpGCAAuw#t=609[/media] and for those who believe electronics and information technology are the future of warfare... [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUgWhUkkzr4[/media] ::) It's a long film, so sit back, get your popcorn and realize that "survivalist revolutionary" is an obsolete thing of the past... |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/31/14 at 08:17:07 I heard they had a full load of fuel. Thats unheard of. I believe it was stolen, via remote control & everyone, pilots included, were killed by taking them up too high. I know about the communications switched off,, yea,, remote control switches installed below the flite deck,, no one would see them,. Big Boeings can be flown remotely, |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by WebsterMark on 03/31/14 at 10:20:29 6375797666140 wrote:
uHow far from the Ukraine are you located? I'd be interested to hear more of your opinion of what's going on and why? What does the average Russian citizen think about Putin, the Ukraine, the USA etc.... |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/31/14 at 10:26:28 And I want to know if you believe the vote in Crimea was a real vote or if the people felt forced to vote to go back to Russia. Ive heard it was a 98% Yes vote,Was that a real count? Were people threatened to Make them vote that way or did they REALLY want to go back under Russian rule? Your opinion would be appreciated,. |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by mpescatori on 03/31/14 at 10:32:22 6B595E4F48594E715D4E573C0 wrote:
uHow far from the Ukraine are you located? I'd be interested to hear more of your opinion of what's going on and why? What does the average Russian citizen think about Putin, the Ukraine, the USA etc....[/quote] He's about 1200 Km east of the Ukrainian border (750 miles) Kharkov is the nearest Ukrainian major city, 3h30' flight from Samara Check it on GoogleMaps or GoogleEarth. ;) |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by wambr on 04/02/14 at 08:10:24 6D7274736E6958685860727E35070 wrote:
Jog, I can't say for sure-was threatened by someone or forced someone to vote "for" the connection with Russia, because I was not in the Crimea personally. but judging by the phone conversations with my aunt and her sister living in Odessa are very many(much more than over 50% of the population) people from the Eastern regions of Ukraine really want to live in Russia. because I can believe in the validity of the results of voting in the Crimea... |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by wambr on 04/02/14 at 08:26:42 635156474051467955465F340 wrote:
course I'm glad that people in the Crimea want to live under Russian flag. but I'm happy not because I can go on rest to Crimea, like home.. I like it because I want people to live in continental Russia and in the Crimea. and about Kiev the new government, I can only say that bunch of bandits who came to the governance of the country, and how this country should be managed and what to do-they don't know... I'm not against the self-determination of the people of any country of the world, I just really sorry for all those living in Ukraine people... |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/02/14 at 08:39:08 Thanks Wambr. Im taking that & posting it in another forum. |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by pgambr on 05/02/14 at 21:48:16 Can you guys on the other side of the pond give us an update? Recently, I've read articles that reflect things are about to escalate. I don't put a lot of faith in our media. Thanks, best regards. |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/02/14 at 21:53:02 2631373B3424560 wrote:
I don't put a lot of faith in our media. Good thing my sinuses are clear. I woulda shot snot all over th place if not,, I don't put a lot of faith in our media. Ahhh,, I just Love a well placed understatement,, |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/03/14 at 07:38:08 Okay,, heres a bit of an update. Ron Paul is well known for being a straight shooter. Thats precisely why bubs teamed up with dems to destroy his run for office. Both sides have their sacred cows & he would happily go about butchering them all w/o prejudice. The power structure doesnt want honest men in office. So, everyone marginalized him. Well,, here he lays out the FACT that we have spent Five Billion Dollars working to stir things up in the Ukraine over the past few years. The people who make fortunes on war do such things. The People dont. Now, you can puke if ya want, but WHERE its reported doesnt change the mans words,, Alex Jones didnt write this & youre not gonna get it on CNN or Fox. So, http://www.infowars.com/ron-paul-on-ukraine-why-are-we-are-making-things-worse/ |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by wambr on 05/03/14 at 10:41:16 what news do you say? the news is very bad... Yatsenyuk like very much wanted to destroy his entire people. hiding behind an "operation to restore order and the compliance integrity of the state", he simply destroys its compatriots, and thus simply does not give them a choice-they fight with him and his "national patriots,"... and in fact it is just some crazed thugs who like the SS troops burned alive people(yesterday in Odessa) shoot in response to a request skip the ambulance(Kramatorsk).. these guys news.. :( |
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Title: Re: The Ukraine Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/05/14 at 10:01:17 http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/peace-and-prosperity/2014/may/03/us-media-covers-up-mass-murder-in-odessa.aspx Yep, our $$$ has brought this unrest,, & our media hides that from us. |
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