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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Fuel leak. /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1393947832 Message started by OldSport on 03/04/14 at 07:43:52 |
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Title: Fuel leak. Post by OldSport on 03/04/14 at 07:43:52 I built a RYCA type mod last year. Lowering the front and raising the rear. I have done a raptor petcock conversion as well as many other mods. Early this year I discovered fuel dripping from the air filter. I removed the carb cleaned and adjusted the needle valve on the carb new gasket on the bowl and installed the raptor petcock, drained the oil and did a cam chain mod. Everything seemed great. Today I walk into the shop a smell fuel. The petcock is off and there is a puddle of fuel under the bike on the lift. Looking in the oil sight glass it looks as if there is fuel in the engine. My question is WTF? Any ideas guys? The petcock is obviously leaking but doesn't seem to with the tank removed. The carb does have a forward lean as does the engine. >:( |
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Title: Re: Fuel leak. Post by verslagen1 on 03/04/14 at 08:04:20 spontaneous fuel leak? can't happen. how are your fuel cap vents? genuine yami raptorcock? try pressurizing the tank a little (pucker up and French it) does it leak? |
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Title: Re: Fuel leak. Post by Serowbot on 03/04/14 at 08:07:32 Is that a Chinese Raptor?... If your observations are correct, it clearly needs new rubber inside... If it's not really in the oil,... I'd say replace the float needle and seat... |
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Title: Re: Fuel leak. Post by Dave on 03/04/14 at 09:59:22 Make sure you are moving the lever to the correct "OFF" position. Some motorcycles use the handle as the indicator, some have a pointer on the other side of the lever. Maybe you are turning the petcock to "RESERVE" instead of "OFF". To confirm if the petock is working, either take the tube of the carb and see if fuel flows or drips out of the tube with the petcock turned off.....or open the drain in the carb and see if the flow continues with the petcock turned off. The fuel should not flow if the petcock is closed. I have a Cafe' conversion with a number or RYCA parts, and it does lean forward, and I have no fuel issues. The angle change is not enough to make the carb overflow.....however it could tend to move any unwanted overflow toward the engine intake rather than the air cleaner. You might want to take a close look at the carb needle once you have the petcock issue resolved.....it should be able to shut the fuel flow off and not allow the carb to overflow even if the petcock is turned ON. |
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Title: Re: Fuel leak. Post by OldSport on 03/04/14 at 10:34:10 I had the tank off for a couple of weeks recently waiting for modified cam chain adjuster and there were no apparent leaks then. Changed throttle cable and rode maybe 20 miles seemed fine. Then I noticed what I thought was an oil leak but apparently it was a grime gas mixture. I had this problem before as I mentioned above. I cleaned the needle valve assembly, placed the float in a cup of fuel to make sure it was ok then blew air into the fuel line as I gently raised the float to cut off the flow with only light pressure. The bike seemed to be fine for several weeks then..... I will order a new float, seat, and needle valve, and check the petcock. |
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Title: Re: Fuel leak. Post by verslagen1 on 03/04/14 at 10:41:39 even if you have a bad float, or float valve, this should not happen if you've turned the petcock off when you're not riding. are all the vents and hoses routed like stock? |
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Title: Re: Fuel leak. Post by OldSport on 03/05/14 at 05:01:33 Apparently petcock is China knock off. and does leak in off position. Orderd Genuine Yamaha Raptor 660 YFM660R Prt # 5LP-24500-01-00 Part is stamped H14 Also ordered carb kit and float from Suzuki Dealer. I will change oil again and start over with carb and petcock. Pretty sure I have a clean engine now. |
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Title: Re: Fuel leak. Post by OldSport on 03/05/14 at 05:04:27 455641405F5254565D02330 wrote:
With the modifided petcock the vacum is plugged. The air box modification left the two vent hoses with no place to go so they are routed up over the carb toward tank. |
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Title: Re: Fuel leak. Post by OldSport on 03/05/14 at 05:13:15 one more question. When I install the new float and needle valve the Clymers Manual only list a measurement when setting the tang on the float to get the proper height. When I cleaned it I put a fresh hose on the inlet and blew through it and adjusted the tang on the float until light presure on the float cut off the air flow. Is it better to just measure, or is there a better way to set this. When I parked the bike before the puddle it ran smoothly and idled perfectly. There was no backfire or sputtering at any point. So no apparent fuel issues. Its just bothersome to keep having this problem. |
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Title: Re: Fuel leak. Post by Dave on 03/05/14 at 05:43:52 The proper way to set the float height is to turn the carb upside down, and just let the weight of the float compress the needle/seat. Then measure the float height from the gasket surface. |
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Title: Re: Fuel leak. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/05/14 at 07:28:03 You sure thats upside down? |
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Title: Re: Fuel leak. Post by Dave on 03/05/14 at 07:50:45 6E7177706D6A5B6B5B63717D36040 wrote:
That is the way I have always done it.....and the way most manuals show it being done. (Don't pay any attention to the distance listed in the photo....not sure what carb that is). |
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Title: Re: Fuel leak. Post by verslagen1 on 03/05/14 at 09:01:35 Alternate method for the inversion challenged... Quote:
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Title: Re: Fuel leak. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/05/14 at 10:54:07 AHH! What was I thinking?!! Yea, Dave, youre right,, & IF it needs adjusted , thats how to go about it, but as Versy posted, the easy check is a piece of tubing, Ive been known to set a float a hair lower than spec, I dont see how that is gonna hurt anything. Anyone wanna splain why thats a bad idea? I know I HAD to do that to an old Suburban w/ a Quadrajet that I hadda put an electric fuel pump on, It was flooding after the mechanical pump died. Well,, I have no idea what level I set it at, actually. We were camping in Big Bend & had no way of checking, I just popped the top off & bent the tab & HOPED for the best,, Thank Gooniss I hauled tools or my buddy woulda been way stranded. He was disappointed when I handed him the tool bag & explained what he needed to do. I was on vacation, :) ,, But, it took him forever but he got it all hooked up. It just wouldnt run more than a few seconds. |
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Title: Re: Fuel leak. Post by Dave on 03/05/14 at 11:03:04 The Mikuni manual actually recommends adjusting the float level as a tuning option.......when one main jet is too small and the next size bigger is too big! They must really be doing some "fine tuning"! 3. Low end (full throttle / 2k-3k) Float height (AKA fuel level & how to..) To get best low end power, set float height so that the engine will accept full throttle in 2nd gear from 2.5k to 3k rpm at minimum. Float heights, unless otherwise specified in the installation guide, are measured from the "gasket surface" of the carb body to the highest part of the top of the float - with the float tang touching but not compressing the float valve spring. Base settings are usually given if a particular application has a history of fuel level criticalness. The Fuel level height in the float bowl affects full throttle/low rpm and, also, richness or leanness at cruise/low rpm. Reference: a bike that runs cleanly at small throttle openings when cold, but starts to show signs of richness as it heats up to full operating temperature, will usually be leaned out enough to be correct if the fuel level is LOWERED 1mm. Check out and RESET all: Suzuki (all), Yamaha (all) and Kawasaki (if low speed problems occur). Needless to say, FUEL LEVEL IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT!!! |
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Title: Re: Fuel leak. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/05/14 at 11:25:50 Well,, SHAZZAM!! I gotta admit, I dont understand how a MM change in the fuel level in the bowl would affect how the thing runs. I shut the fuel off on the 4 wheeler & ride it to where I park it. I cant feel anything change till its sputtering. I do that because the bowl drain screw drips a little. Im not about to tighten it any more. & Its not a big enough deal to make me wanna take anything apart. Any of you carb smarty pants types wanna try to educate a guy on this? IF you do, then please be fore warned, Im gonna need a REaders Digest format if Im gonna grok it, dont go all Carb Engineer on me, |
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Title: Re: Fuel leak. Post by Dave on 03/05/14 at 12:00:40 Well....at low rpm's and a wide open throttle....there is not much vacuum beneath the carb slide to pull the fuel up out of the float bowl. So if it has to pull the fuel up 13mm......and you change that to 14mm.....it is gonna make a difference on how much fuel gets pulled up the jet. Now the CV carb is going to help correct for some of that.....but raising or lowering the fuel level in the float bowl does make a small difference. Here is a link to the article I qouted.....it is for the CV carb mounted on any motorcycle including 2 and 4 cylinder bikes.....so it is not specifically for the Savage: http://www.zrxoa.org/webpages/techinfo/carb/carbtuning.html |
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Title: Re: Fuel leak. Post by OldSport on 03/05/14 at 12:23:43 The bike is an 86' so the main jet is a #155 and the pilot jet is a #47.5. I ordered a jet kit and started to play with it. but anything different I tried seem to cause problems so I returned to the original. My assumption was that due to changes to the intake and exhaust I would need to change the jetting. That is when the first leak started. I made another assumption that I had caused the leak by bumping or damaging something. I have had a similar problem with riding mower recently. A Carb kit with a new valve and seat, and a healthy shot of carb cleaner solved that problem. I am hoping that and a new petcock will have the same result here. I have also discovered a new local source for ethanol free fuel. Link to detail. http://thelycanproject.blogspot.com/2013/12/carb-and-fuel-line-woes-on-special.html |
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Title: Re: Fuel leak. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/05/14 at 13:26:16 310A0710010D16100B030E11620 wrote:
Okay, Dave, You said (So if it has to pull the fuel up 13mm......and you change that to 14mm) & I get this, in an "almost, kinda sorta" way,,BUT!!! (You KNEW there was a Biggo BUTT comin, didnt ya? ) What happens when Im running up or down a hill? Its no longer a vertical lift to get the fuel from the bowl to the venturi, I guess itd take a pretty good slope to tilt the tube from the bowl to venturi to make a MM change, IDK, Id hafta siddown w/ pencil & paper,, But seriously,,that would BE some fine tuning of jetting.. Okay, I get it, good enough to at least accept it as a tuning method.. But, I would never be the guy who would use it. I can see how a drag racer mite. |
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Title: Re: Fuel leak. Post by Dave on 03/05/14 at 13:53:09 JOG The main jet holder is located about smack dab in the center of the float bowl - the fluid level at that point won't vary much with an angle change forward or back or left or right. The float level in the Mikuni manual doesn't bother to correct for the mounting angle of the carb....but I suppose the specific manual for any bike that came from the factory with that carb may have corrected the float level for the original equipment carbs. For the distance changing because of the slope decreasing the vertical lift....yeah it would a tiny bit. But a carb is not a precision tool anyhow and the best you can make it do is provide a mixture that is close to ideal, and it will bounce into the rich/lean sides constantly. When I jetted my carb I had an O2 sensor on it.....and it constantly bounced around as you changed throttle settings and rpms. Fuel injection can monitor this change hundreds of times a second and adjust.......a carb can't. The fuel level however can change a bunch when it is sloshing around on uneven terrain....or upside down! If you use the clear tube method to check the float level - you will see a change in the level if you lean the bike over....since the clear tube is held beside the carb and it is not in the center of the float bowl. |
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Title: Re: Fuel leak. Post by verslagen1 on 03/05/14 at 13:58:42 352A2C2B3631003000382A266D5F0 wrote:
paper aside and seat of the pants ruling... Downhill a forward tilt of the pickup tube will reduce fuel delivery but due to less throttle, less is needed anyway. An uphill will just about level out his RYCA tilted carb, shortening the lift and richening delivery. More power scotty, thank you. |
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Title: Re: Fuel leak. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/05/14 at 18:41:39 Man,, thats just too cool,, OOOkay,, |
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Title: Re: Fuel leak. Post by OldSport on 03/09/14 at 20:58:56 I picked up the carb kit and the float Friday. The petcock also arrived Friday from California! I was pretty impressed. I spent Friday night changing the petcock out and cleaning and repairing the carb. The new seat and needle valve valve went in fine but the new float would not swing freely with the pin inserted. I had checked the old float and believed it to be fine. So I put everything back drained and refilled the bike with oil and fired it up. It seemed to be great. I let it run a few minutes then shut it down and backed it half way off the lift to get a better angle to check the oil level. I let it set a few minutes and didn't turn off the petcock. Low and behold it began to leak fuel from the air filter. I am in the process of moving my shop back to my house so most of my tools are at my house. I shut off the petcock and removed the card and took it back to the house. Saturday I got up and ran some errands for my wife then I took the rotary tool and cleaned up the mounting area on the new float and installed it and set it to the proper height. It was so nice I decided to ride my other bike and install the carb later. Later in the day I went back and installed the carb and followed the same procedures. This time no leak. One note when I went to work on the bike I had to use the back entrance because the restaurant across the street was having a classic car cruise in and the entrance was blocked with classic cars. After I got it running I took it out and cruised around the block a few times among all the classic cars. Even among those great cars it really turned some heads. I took some pictures of the carb and petcock and I will post them tomorrow. Thanks for all the help. |
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Title: Re: Fuel leak. Post by Serowbot on 03/09/14 at 23:22:36 Sheeeeout!... that's some tuning!... I fancy myself a tuner of sorts,... but I just set the floats to be horizontal to the bowl... Bowl get's filled,... but jets don't get flooded... Period... I ain't relying on gravity and straight roads to feed my carb... More uphill than downhill?... are we accounting for inertia in turns?... Pffffffffftttt!.... ;D... I suck at maths!... ;D... |
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Title: Re: Fuel leak. Post by gizzo on 03/10/14 at 16:07:07 I've been caught out by mystery leaks a couple time on my suzukis (I know, slow learner) and both times was actually the o ring that seals the brass needle seat to the carb body. duh. Change that fixed it both times. Also, the new needle on my savage needed a couple of days to settle down and work right with no drips. Shouldn't be, but there you go... BTW, Dave thanks for the carb tuning tutorial. Didn't know that... :) |
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Title: Re: Fuel leak. Post by OldSport on 03/10/14 at 18:56:20 Photos Petcocks, OEM, Cheap Raptor knock off, Yamaha Raptor. http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz57/Execpriv/photo662_zpsc4a02583.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz57/Execpriv/The%20Lycan%20Project/photo655_zpsaa7460e2.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz57/Execpriv/The%20Lycan%20Project/photo656_zpsf0fbfd25.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz57/Execpriv/The%20Lycan%20Project/photo657_zps8eb25e91.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz57/Execpriv/The%20Lycan%20Project/photo658_zpsa7c91caf.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz57/Execpriv/The%20Lycan%20Project/photo659_zps1bbe4c43.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz57/Execpriv/The%20Lycan%20Project/photo660_zps264e94a6.jpg http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz57/Execpriv/The%20Lycan%20Project/photo661_zpsa246fc5d.jpg |
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