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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> Pending economic collapse?... /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1390378282 Message started by Serowbot on 01/22/14 at 00:11:22 |
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Title: Pending economic collapse?... Post by Serowbot on 01/22/14 at 00:11:22 This ain't right or left... it ain't Obama... it ain't even America... This is global... Europe is in as much trouble as we are... The "Fed" is only doing the same as everyone else in other countries,... it's a keep up, or become redundant thing... Isolationism won't work... It's a global economy... In fact........ it's no longer about countries, or governments... It's about the power of corporations... They are bigger than governments... and therefore, bigger than us... ...(we get a vote, in governance... we don't get to vote in corporations)... ...unless we are stockholders... ... and that's the point... Many of us are stockholders... But,... the nature of holding stock has changed... and it is recent, and profound... Stockholding used to be the realm of the rich... but, 401k's and day trading, and the general admission of divested interests in stock shares has created a market of investors that are focused on quarterly gains instead of long term stability... The pressure is on to make profits every cycle... ...and sacrifices are made to future viability... This is a poker game where all the cards are exposed... Every card the investors see must show a win... Betting is so high, it out-values any possible gain... This is why,... there are companies with stock values far in excess of their actual value... There are companies out there worth billions, that have never made a quarterly profit... It is pure speculation... based on bluffed hands... When the system was run by wealthy investors,.. they had a personal stake in the long term... and acting accordingly... Now,.. the majority of investment, is divested from the investor... They don't know what or why they are invested... they only look at the quarterly return on their 401... It's like taking 10% of your income to the bookie,.. and saying, "you pick the bets for me"... ... and the investors are only trying to decide... when to take you for their maximum profit ... They aren't working for you, or for the companies they invest in... They sit in the middle... and work for themselves... Stocks can go up, as companies go down... because it's all based on what a disinterested middleman does... In the old days... if companies weren't doing well, an investor stopped investing,.. and began divesting... Now,.. the money rolls in every paycheck... whether the economy is going well or not... ... the money must go into something, every week... there is no holding in this game... Blind investment, is feeding this economy... |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by raydawg on 01/22/14 at 04:05:39 You can't eat speculations, to some degree, you can commodities, but dude, you is only looking at one spoke that holds up the wheel...... |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by WebsterMark on 01/22/14 at 06:19:42 I have to respectfully disagree 100%. It’s not about corporations; it’s about government. It is a left / right issue. It is about Obama and it is about America. Europe is in trouble because of left leaning; socialistic cradle-to-grave policies that are not only bankrupting them economically, but socially as well. Europe is in trouble because they have outsourced their military responsibilities to the United States and spent themselves silly on unsustainable government programs instead of building an environment where free enterprise can thrive. Not all corporations are not like you describe. Where are you getting your description of corporations from? Personal experience, someone’s writings or are you deducing the problem from various sources? I can tell you that description does not fit my company; whom I consider myself extremely fortunate to work for. We are a based in Sweden, have 3500 employees, operate in 50 countries and maintain a business model that relies on delivering value for each dollar our customers pay us. We sell a product that cost 3 times what our competitors charge for theirs because we deliver significant cost savings in product cost, labor cost, energy cost and disposal cost over the long run that dwarf what our competitors can offer. I have been at this job 4 years now and have never lost a customer in all that time. When we show people what we can do, they realize quality cost money and it is engineered products that deliver savings. We have two R&D labs and continually introduce new products that push our entire industry to up their game as well. We don’t sacrifice tomorrow for today; we always thing long term. Our competitors act more like the corporations you are describing, but a few are gradually they are beginning to follow us. Short sighted vision is just that, short sighted. It does not win in the long run, but to my point, it wins in an environment dominated by government oversight and an emasculated citizenry willing to hand over responsibility for their future to a nanny state. I’ve got to head out for a few days of work, but the topic you raise is worthy of a long discussion with many giving their input. My basic contention is that it is not business that is the problem, but government policies that weaken society and the number one fallout from that weakening is the coming economic collapse, which I think we both can see is coming. |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by Serowbot on 01/22/14 at 07:53:01 625057464150477854475E350 wrote:
You are defending the company you work for... I'm not attacking it,.. or any company... What I'm saying is that the value of these companies is now based more on the amount of money investors have in them, than in what they produce... Investment has become disassociated with a companies efficiency... Investment money is now automatically coming out of paychecks every week... and it must be invested every week... regardless... |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by Serowbot on 01/22/14 at 08:15:52 Let me put it this way... The economic pie is only so big... Every week, millions of people have money put into that pie automatically... ...but, the actual pie is not growing that fast... So, each week, the money buys a smaller piece of the pie, and all of the slices purchased previously become smaller as more money comes in... You end up with thousands of dollars invested in a $6.00 pie... |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by Pine on 01/22/14 at 08:21:33 Thats a very written post...long and thought provoking. The FED ... in and of itself would only be marginally connected to the stock market. Right now the connect is very tight and dramatic... but thats only for now. The stock market, is corrupt and has been for several decades. Companies that use to be called Stock brokers ( now rolled up into "banks" so they could be saved) have certainly a huge shoulder of blame ( IMO). I think you are correct that the price of stocks has been "bid up". Is this due to blind trust by the everyman investor? Or by brokers who get a commission on the sale price? In the past yes to both... but that is not what is currently bidding up the price today The current stock market bubble is being created by the FED (see your still right). The FED is "printing" money and loaning it to the banks, but with the stipulation that it cannot be loaned. Loaning the money would increase the "velocity" of money and cause inflation to be appearent. This is what happend in 1981. Instead the banks have all this money they cannot lend... so they invest in the stock market. This is "good" for the politicians as they can point to the stock market and claim the economy is recovering. It is good for business who get a cheap influx of captial cash... it is GREAT for the "banks" who get free money to earn money on in the market. However, this does and has inflated the stock market itself. But to me, its much worse than that. It has set the "banks" up for an even bigger win. The FED WILL tell the banks when the QE stops before they tell anyone else. When the QE stops, the banks will be let off the hook and can lend that money. They will withdraw their stock investments, cause the market as a whole to drop. The really bad thing is THEY and only THEY KNOW the timing. Everyone else that were forced to pay high prices for stock bid up by the free money the banks used, will be stuck holding these overpriced stocks. Thier money will be gone, or locked up. In the mean time the banks will begin loaning money, velocity will increase and interest rates on both sides will go up ( a good thing) to a reasonable level. But, now only the banks will have the liquid cash to make loans. This is why the FED is having trouble stopping QE. The current economy is built on system with QE in place. Stop the QE, and the economy will shift another system. But the bubble is place for the stock market, and there is very little to be done to deflate that bubble short of popping it. Of course all this ignores the government side of things. For instance the cost increase the government would have to pay on the national debt would be greater for each perceantage point the interest rate rises. Debt is not going down, and at some point there is a real issue to being able to just maintain debt interest payments. |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by Rix on 01/22/14 at 10:39:48 Bring it. I'll be ok. |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by Pine on 01/22/14 at 11:02:07 3127302D35202D36420 wrote:
Why are plain folks doing this??? Because the FED has killed interest rates. What does a retired person with say $20K suppose to do with it? Let it earn .01 percent per annum? So they are FORCED into the stock market... but the market is already inflated by the banks... and by others just like them. Thats all very sad. But again.. not as sad as when the banks pull out and market drops leaving the masses upside down in the market. |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by pgambr on 01/22/14 at 19:06:33 There has been no recovery since 2008, only a cover-up by omission. 48M on food stamps / welfare 62% labor participation rate I'm predicting it will be real ugly by 2020. |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/22/14 at 20:41:21 http://www.multpl.com/shiller-pe/ A graph showing the average price to earnings ratio. Now, look at it & look at the years. Think back to when things were working better. Look at those years & the P/E ratio at that time, Another problem with the market today is the high frequency trading, done by computer,, not some guy you call & tell him what you wanna do. The BIG firms arent making their $$$ handling trades for people.. theyre trading for themselves, using computer programs & buying & selling in millisecond events. |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by old_rider on 01/22/14 at 21:15:08 Ten years ago I was an employee of the L3 corp. for aircraft maintenance. Six years ago they lost the contract where I worked and we were told we could change our 401k to a different company if we wanted. Well, it was mandatory for the L3 corp. to put money into a 401k for us, and if we contributed they would double our amount. I never put anything into it, just let it ride. This past month (10yrs later) I got my prospectus(sp?) in the mail saying I had a whopping 3,452.00 in my 401k, wow! I can now retire! Made in the shade 8-) |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by verslagen1 on 01/23/14 at 11:40:42 Buy on bad news, sell on good. looks like you've seen a lot of bad news. |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by pgambr on 01/24/14 at 15:22:23 Here is a good example of how influential corporations are today. JP Morgan has been fined between 13B - 20B because of improper and perhaps illegal activity. Yes that is billion with a "B" and no one has been indited. Also, their CEO didn't get canned and is expected to make even more money. Same story for the group I work for. The bonuses were sent out this past week for the execs. |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by WebsterMark on 01/25/14 at 06:15:42 2631373B3424560 wrote:
So? How does that affect you? What do bonuses paid to others have to do with you? |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/25/14 at 08:16:08 Okay web, youre sittin at the table, Mom brings the food & puts it on everyones plate, You get a teaspoon of food, the guys she likes have their plates running over,, |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by WebsterMark on 01/25/14 at 17:03:35 That's a bad analogy. Bonus is compensation, not 'moms dishing out more food to her favorite Johnny'. |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by pgambr on 01/25/14 at 17:18:45 Quote:
I (we) am experiencing the ramifications of a dysfunctional corporate culture that is obsessed with short-term earnings as opposed to maintaining and or strengthening an on-going financial concern. |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by WebsterMark on 01/25/14 at 20:15:10 And what specifically are those ramifications? What is it that JP Morgan did that impacts you on a day to day basis? What can't you do because of them? What specifically have you lost? |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by Serowbot on 01/25/14 at 21:31:35 516364757263744B67746D060 wrote:
"Please sir, can I have some more?... |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/25/14 at 21:32:44 That dude drank it all, Rowboat,, |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by WebsterMark on 01/26/14 at 05:02:36 The only one stopping you is yourself. You want more, go get more. Stop crying about your lot in life. |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/26/14 at 16:31:07 So, youre rich, Webster? Or you just dont want any more? Or youre too lazy to go get it? |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by WebsterMark on 01/26/14 at 17:16:15 1) Nope 2) I'm happy with what I make and what I do. 3) me, lazy? Nope, I work hard. I could double what I make, but I don't want to put that more time into it or relocate. If I lost this job I'd find another. If I wanted more, I'd go get it. Anyone can, as long as you're not one of those crybabies that blame their lot in life on everyone but themselves. The short answer is quit crying and bitching. |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/26/14 at 20:11:03 You go tell that to the unemployed ,, You reallyt think people suddenly got lazy? People who have worked all their lives, bought cars & houses, only to have them repossessed? Yea,, likie Bammys poll numbers are because the same people who voted for him the first time suddenly became racists,, I get it.. |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by WebsterMark on 01/27/14 at 06:07:11 Do I think people suddenly got lazy? No, not all. But do I think everyone drawing a government check is trying to better themselves? No! My wife works at a very large church in town. They advertise for a custodian and I think the pay was around 950 an hour. Four people schedulied an interview. That's all, despite a high unemployment rate. Only one person showed up and he got the job. The last guy who worked there was about the same situation, he was the only one to show up at the interview. Now you might say $9.50 an hour is a joke, you can make that much on unemployment. But it's amazing the people you meet when you go to work and try to better yourself. That particular custodian got his truck stolen. The congregation of the church found out about it and raised $5000 and bought him a new truck. He then went on later to take a better paying job that required a truck and he's doing much better now than if he'd just stayed home on unemployment. I guess the real difference is I just don't whine and complain about how much other people make. It seems like almost everybody else on this forum, that's all they do, complain complain complain that "the other guy makes more money than he does. It's just not fair!" I get sick of hearing it. |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by RatdogWillie on 01/27/14 at 07:41:12 According to the government, the economy is doing just fine.....it's just the taxpayers that are suffering. |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/27/14 at 08:01:26 Ive heard of hundreds & hundreds lined up for as few as 20 jobs,, maybe that job just wasnt well advertised.. Youve got one instance, Ive seen reports of many. |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by Paraquat on 01/27/14 at 09:30:51 I told you guys about my girlfriend and her mother going to the DoL. Straight from the worker bee there he reported that the statistics in Connecticut are much higher than reported. He claimed where they are reporting 19.2% it's more like 25%. 1/4 of the people here are unemployed. --Steve |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by WebsterMark on 01/27/14 at 09:34:58 Oh, I agree the percentage is probably much higher than what's published. But then why do so few people show up for a job? I've seen those lines on television also. I wonder if this is a case where those jobs are advertised through some government agency and not through the want ads, classified, or on monster.com. |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/27/14 at 10:32:59 http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/unemployment-charts Why did so few show up for the one job you know about? How was it advertised? Maybe people expected a huge line for one lousy job & theyd been down that road before.. Just because only a few applied doesnt mean there arent a huge number unemployed, Its an Open Secret that once peoples benefits are exhausted, theyre no longer considered unemployed,, so, its only obvious that there are many not included in the official statistics. WHY we allow our goobs to obviously lie to us is amazing to me,, & how many dont even KNOW those stats are completely useless? We PAY them to gather the numbers,, someone is making a good living gathering data & compiling an "Unemployment today" number,, & its only propaganda.. & we pay for it,, its pathetic,, OHH I do so LOOOVE my country,, |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by WebsterMark on 01/27/14 at 16:36:36 Can't you read Jog? Where did I say unemployment wasn't high? In fact, I said the opposite. |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/27/14 at 19:32:07 Yes, you admitted it was probably higher than admitted, I saw that.,.,BUT You seem to lack the outrage that I would associate with anyone who actually understood HOW it is that the niumbers just happen to be so wrong. Its not an accident, its a lie, its intended to be a lie. Its done for pure propaganda purposes. Its bubs & dems, noth sides play the same game, exhibiting once again the "difference" between the 2 parties.. dang near zero,. |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by WebsterMark on 01/27/14 at 19:56:29 no, fact is the Republicans have been preaching the "total number of unemployed" over and over while the Dems have been using the historical figure. Problem is, our media has hitched their wagon to one party so the real figure isn't spoken about very much. That's not a surprise, happens all the time. and it's not a conspiracy either.... it's a matter of one media protecting their guys. it's not something they get together and plan out. It would be like getting a bunch of Suzuki guys on one side and Yamaha guys on the other. You tend to talk up the side you have a bias towards. Politicians know this and use it to their advantage. Reps want favorable coverage, they go on Fox. Dems want favorable coverage, they go on any network except Fox. |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by Trippah on 01/28/14 at 10:02:10 Yu would talk to a Yammie????? :o |
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Title: Re: Pending economic collapse?... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/28/14 at 12:36:28 If the bubs wanted it done right, theyve been in power enough to make the way its reported changed back to how it was years ago,,whichever is in office uses the lies to their advantage,, bubs lie, too..NOW theyre happy enough to talk about it,, |
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