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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> new mechanical heart... a little question /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1388456611 Message started by wambr on 12/30/13 at 18:23:30 |
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Title: new mechanical heart... a little question Post by wambr on 12/30/13 at 18:23:30 in brief, the situation is this: I bought a new mechanical heart for my baby. at first glance it seems that it is completely new. but when viewed from the cylinder head and everything there is I found: on the cam lobes i found little "shell", which are like fish scales. they are not deep and not felt fingers. measurements showed that all dimensions are almost like new, wear, heat or shock I don,t saw. I only have one moment confusing these shells as is "scary" for longevity and health of the engine? if possible, as a "cure"? |
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Title: Re: new mechanical heart... a little question Post by wambr on 12/30/13 at 19:08:13 I will try to show with the camera http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9303/197160891.0/0_b8c9b_9b9fd203_L http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9303/197160891.0/0_b8c9b_9b9fd203_S http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9811/197160891.0/0_b8c98_ebd29380_L http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9811/197160891.0/0_b8c98_ebd29380_S http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9765/197160891.0/0_b8c9a_edf7dcb4_L http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9765/197160891.0/0_b8c9a_edf7dcb4_S http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9303/197160891.0/0_b8c9b_9b9fd203_L http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9303/197160891.0/0_b8c9b_9b9fd203_S |
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Title: Re: new mechanical heart... a little question Post by Dave on 12/31/13 at 08:18:18 wambr: The photos are not focused on the lobes, and they don't help us to know what they look like. The cam should be bright and shiny.....and not pitted. It could be not having enough ZDDP in the oil could promote this condition. Without better photos I would suggest you be sure to use a good oil with 1,400 ppm of ZDDP to keep it running as long as possible. What do the rockers look like? |
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Title: Re: new mechanical heart... a little question Post by wambr on 12/31/13 at 10:46:37 OK! I will try to shoot as anything else. and rockers camshaft separately....but it through day or two... but tomorrow I'll come to work again. |
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Title: Re: new mechanical heart... a little question Post by wambr on 12/31/13 at 10:51:13 Dave, please explain in more detail-what does it mean ZDDP? |
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Title: Re: new mechanical heart... a little question Post by pgambr on 12/31/13 at 11:19:21 I don't know how it works, but mine sure runs better with shell rotella. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1344471565 |
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Title: Re: new mechanical heart... a little question Post by sesamestreet on 01/01/14 at 09:39:24 71676B6474060 wrote:
It's an additive that's in all automotive oils but i think most motorcycles require higher levels. |
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Title: Re: new mechanical heart... a little question Post by Dave on 01/01/14 at 14:31:07 56404C4353210 wrote:
ZDDP is an additive that contains Zinc and Phospate. All oils used to have 1,200 ppm give or take a little - howeve the amount of ZDDP has been cut in half in most modern oils to satisfy the Evironmental Protection Agency as they believe the ZDDP will foul oxygen sensors and Catalytic Converters over time. The high levels of ZDDP are necessary in any engine that does not have roller lifters or roller rockers. Our Savage is a primitive design and has solid flat rockers, and it needs a high level of ZDDP (1,200 - 1,400 ppm) in order to protect the cam and the rockers from being damaged. Here is the thread on the ZDDP from the Technical Section. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1344471565 Unfortunately even motorycle oils are being reformulated as motorycles are getting oxygen sensors and catalytic converters. Most of us use Shell Rotella T or Rotella T-6 if you want a syntetic. It has the right amount of ZDDP, it is very affodable, it does not have friction modifiers that can cause the clutch to slip, and it works great. |
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Title: Re: new mechanical heart... a little question Post by wambr on 01/02/14 at 08:04:09 thank you guys for your explanation! I will continue... after several unsuccessful attempts to photograph the defects Cams camshaft I realized that my camera is impossible to do it... so I'll try to describe in words". these defects are like traces of rust... such a small point. but I guess I can remove them with fine sandpaper, glued to the wooden block. what do you say about this guys? upon further inspection revealed another bit of interesting facts . when I remove cylinder head, i found, that the Japanese who sold me this engine is apparently a great hurry, and collected all of the "curves hands" (he just sketched all the parts inside, as in the trash) and not very carefully. I don't know why, but the gap between the cylinder and the piston amounted to approximately 1.6-1,7[ch1084][ch1084]. piston has a size of 87,8mm and cylinder 88mm. cylinder rather not bad. and this is also borne out by the piston rings. the gap in their joints within the norm. even were found leak in the exhaust valves. but this is not the problem-grind them to me not difficult. crankshaft while still in the collected crankcase and shows not a bad condition. based on the described-advise me guys-whether further disassemble the engine or you can calm down? all that is in the crankcase much wear or not? let me remind you that I have an idea to install this engine instead of "old". old had already covered already more than 40000 miles. |
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Title: Re: new mechanical heart... a little question Post by Bluesman on 01/02/14 at 08:50:27 If you have a point-and-shoot camera (compact), try putting it into "macro" mode - often shown as a tulip symbol. This gives you a chance to shoot objects at 10-20cm distance with good focus. Just a tip :-) |
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Title: Re: new mechanical heart... a little question Post by wambr on 01/02/14 at 09:05:36 thanks Bluesman! I tried anything... just these defective places are at the top of camlobes . in a picture them getting the glare from the flash or from the lamp(when I describe the lamp). and they are quite small in size... |
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Title: Re: new mechanical heart... a little question Post by Dave on 01/02/14 at 10:05:20 WAMBR. With the piston size you qouted....I can only imagine that the engine is a 400cc instead of the 650cc which has a 94mm bore. Dave |
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Title: Re: new mechanical heart... a little question Post by wambr on 01/02/14 at 10:44:18 Yes, Dave, almost so.. engine savage 400 has another crankshaft with a lower stroke . the main gaps in these engines are the same. |
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Title: Re: new mechanical heart... a little question Post by Dave on 01/02/14 at 11:22:07 wambr: The engine you your bike at 40,000 miles may have a lot more life left in it. Here is a link to a fellow that turned 100,000 miles on his Savage and it never has had the engine rebuilt. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1366983788 It has had cam chains and other maintenance issues - but the crankcase, piston and cylinder and cranks are all original. If you keep up on the maintenance and use a good oil.....you have a lot of life left. Most damage to the Savage engine comes from letting the oil run low, having too low of idle speed, running oil with too little ZDDP, or letting the cam chain tensioner extend to far and come apart. |
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Title: Re: new mechanical heart... a little question Post by wambr on 01/02/14 at 20:43:27 cool! thank you for the link, Dave. |
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Title: Re: new mechanical heart... a little question Post by wambr on 01/02/14 at 20:53:36 native mechanical heart my little Savage I think has an unusual noise in the cylinder head. I think that is wear of camshaft journal (though the gap I have not measured), moreover, began to appear dull thud when the engine is under load(I think that's wear main crankshaft bearings). that's why I think about replacing the engine.... |
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Title: Re: new mechanical heart... a little question Post by Dave on 01/03/14 at 04:26:48 This may sound a bit far fetched - but have you tried tightening the motor mounts - especially the one at the top of the cylinder head? This has been known to make some noise when it is loose. |
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Title: Re: new mechanical heart... a little question Post by wambr on 01/03/14 at 06:15:11 finally... I took another photo-camera and these were the pictures. http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9830/197160891.0/0_b9633_ba8cfdf6_L http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9830/197160891.0/0_b9633_ba8cfdf6_L http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6725/197160891.0/0_b9635_b1248fa1_L http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6725/197160891.0/0_b9635_b1248fa1_L |
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Title: Re: new mechanical heart... a little question Post by Dave on 01/03/14 at 09:31:28 It appears to be a case of minor, or beginning cam failure. Not sure if the damage will continue to get worse if you now use good oil - or if using good oil will stop the failure. Here in the states where a cam can be welded and reqround for $ 165 plus shipping.......I would get it repaired and have it ground to a performance cam. I am afraid that the engine you bought may have some good usable parts - but I am not convinced the cam is one of the parts that can be used again. You always have option of using your existing cam if it looks better than the one you photographed. |
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Title: Re: new mechanical heart... a little question Post by Oldfeller on 01/03/14 at 09:52:22 Like Dave said, it is just the bare beginnings of cam tip spaulling. Will the spaulling progress? You can certainly minimize it by using a good ZDDP oil like Rotella and by boosting it with a good booster up to 1,500 ppm ZDDP. Stop the spaulling now while it is minimal. Here's a fact -- MOST NEWER SAVAGES have this condition or worse since they were sold with a crankcase of modern oil in them and have never seen a proper oil, ever. Shame that, but Suzuki oil brand is only 1,000 ppm and quite frankly that was measured several years ago (who knows what it is down to now). I'd put the cam back in with a good boosted crankcase of oil and run it until it fails (many many many miles before that happens) and then I would get the cam welded up and reground by Web CAM to a better profile. Some things older folks begin to realize that might just outlive them -- I think my Savage engine might be one of such. |
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Title: Re: new mechanical heart... a little question Post by S-P on 01/03/14 at 19:45:30 [quote author=51727A787B72727B6C1E0 link=1388456611/15#19 date=1388771542] I would get the cam welded up and reground by Web CAM to a better profile. I checked webcam's site and they said the "hot cam" requires a high compression cylinder/piston. Can you do a cam upgrade with the stock piston? |
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Title: Re: new mechanical heart... a little question Post by wambr on 01/03/14 at 21:40:42 I'm sorry... I thought this camshaft even serve. I thought that we can grind a surface camshaft... that'll have to send it in the trash. I'll look at the rest of the content of this engine: what it is still left to live |
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Title: Re: new mechanical heart... a little question Post by Dave on 01/04/14 at 03:35:09 57504152414A54455148240 wrote:
You can install the Stage 1, 2 or 3 cams with the stock piston. None of them are really "hot" cams....and there is no reason to install a hot cam in a Savage. The big single does not make horsepower at high rpm's.....it makes torque. Oldfellor has a Stage 2 cam which is the wildest grind for the Savage, he has a stock piston, and his bike runs great. If you install a Wiseco it will make more torque and horsepower - but all three grinds work with the stock piston. |
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Title: Re: new mechanical heart... a little question Post by S-P on 01/04/14 at 19:24:42 You can install the Stage 1, 2 or 3 cams with the stock piston. None of them are really "hot" cams... - but all three grinds work with the stock piston.[/quote] Thanks! That's what I was hoping to hear! :D |
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Title: Re: new mechanical heart... a little question Post by wambr on 01/19/14 at 10:08:59 in the General process of the return to life of the new mechanical heart for my baby continues. what else can you do in winter? ;) and because of the desire to completely disassemble the engine "then" I have not, and current repairs I decided to make a lasting one. so, when I review the Carter discovered quite significant (at the end of the crankshaft) the clearance of the bearing. I certainly understand that some of the backlash of the bearing should be. but how strong? if replace him. what class of accuracy of the bearing should I choose? you I can tell the guys? |
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