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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Lets see if this forum can help me and my savage. /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1388089786 Message started by Chris99ls650 on 12/26/13 at 12:29:46 |
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Title: Lets see if this forum can help me and my savage. Post by Chris99ls650 on 12/26/13 at 12:29:46 Trying to start from the begining. I picked up this 1999 Savage ls650. Guy before me said he rode it around the block a few times when he bought it and heard the timing chain making noise so he shut it down. Hes a friend of mine so i trusted that much. I took the bike and got a aftermarket timing chain tensioner put on it. Ive got the bike back together and it wont start. I have some knowledge on bikes myself. The bike has spark at plug. Cleaned carb twice now with cleaner and compressed air. All jets are clean and are still stock settings. It just cranks and cranks and wont start. Any help would be great. Thanks I just bought a brand new battery today so im going to see if that helps. I had it hooked up to my truck with cables but it still wouldnt hit. |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Chris99ls650 on 12/26/13 at 12:31:21 Pulled spark plug - dipped in fuel put it back in immediatly tried to start and still nothing. |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Tempted on 12/26/13 at 13:27:32 Do you know if the DC solenoid is operating correctly? Have you tried starting fluid? If the plug is good, it has compression and is getting fuel in the chamber then the only other option is timing. Could you have the cam 180* out? Are the lifters in proper shape and operating correctly(pull the top site windows when you turn the bike over)? |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Chris99ls650 on 12/26/13 at 13:43:00 The DC silenoid seems to operating correctly. I havnt tried starting fluid. I have 2 brand new plugs ive tried assuming one might be bad. I didnt touch the timing chain itself and am assuming it didnt get thrown off a tooth. Does anyone know if the battery silenoid/start silenoid has to be grounded to the rear fender for it to start as the rear fender isnt on the bike? |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Chris99ls650 on 12/26/13 at 13:44:43 Ill take my compression tester and see what she throws on there tonight and im going to get some starting fluid and see if that helps. The rear fender is the only thing i havnt put back on the bike. |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by verslagen1 on 12/26/13 at 14:09:34 All questions about savages go in RSD |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Chris99ls650 on 12/26/13 at 14:20:40 sorry didnt see that. newbie here. i made a new post |
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Title: Lets see if this forum can help me and my savage. Post by Chris99ls650 on 12/26/13 at 14:19:20 Picked up a 99savage ls 650 replaced the timing chain tensioner with a aftermarket one after a friend said he had it running and heard the noise coming from the tensioner and then shut it down. I purchased to rebuild it and now it wont start. Ive cleaned the carb with compressed air and cleaner. Bought a new battery today as i just had it hooked up to my truck with cables. The bike is back together now. It has great spark with a brand new plug. I havnt tried starter fluid yet but will tonight. Ive dipped the plug in fuel and immediatly put it in and still no start. The only thing i dont have on the bike is the rear fender and that being said the battery silenoid/starter silenoid isnt grounded. Does it need to be? Im going to do a compression test on it tonight. ANY help at all would be great. Ive built my fair share of bikes so i have some knowledge on them but this thing has gotten under my skin lol. |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by engineer on 12/26/13 at 16:45:58 Seeing that you have a good spark then it should fire right up with the starting fluid, at least for a couple seconds. Between the starter fluid and the planned compression test it shouldn't be too hard to narrow down the problem. Sounds like you have experience with this sort of thing. The starter relay and the decompression solenoid are not grounded to the body, the battery, the starter motor, and I think the neutral switch are grounded. Since the starter cranks it and you can see a spark I doubt that it is a ground problem. Do you have fresh fuel in it? And is the fuel supply from the tank to the float bowel good? The stock petcock is vacuum actuated and a leak in that vacuum line or within the petcock can be a problem. Did you buy the Versy tensioner? |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Chris99ls650 on 12/26/13 at 18:41:21 I have fresh fuel in it. It is having a petcock issue but from what Ive read on here I can block the vac ports and set the petcock to prime and yes it feels the bowl up and does release fuel from the drain bolt. Which Ive done. |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by S-P on 12/26/13 at 20:07:27 I recently pulled mine apart to put in a new cam chain tensioner and a couple other things and it wouldn't start. I put the Raptor petcock on too. I ended up having to use starting fluid to get it started first thing in the morning (poked a tiny hole in the air filter and used a WD40 tube nozzle to shoot it into the carb, let it sit for about a minute to evaporate), after that it would start fine the rest of the day. That made me think there might have been a flooding issue letting it sit overnight so I was sure I turned off the petcock before I shut the bike down to burn off some of the gas in the line and float bowl. I adjusted the valves and put in a new plug and now it starts OK without starter fluid in the AM. Not sure how and if all that was related. Good luck! |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Tempted on 12/26/13 at 20:30:46 The only electronics bolted to the rear fender are the rectifier and rear lights. Since you are getting spark then it probably isn't an electrical issue. The Savage I'm building starts without the DC solenoid attached. If the solenoid is keeping the valves open all the time then that is your issue. If that isn't the problem and the timing is correct then it comes down to fuel. You do have an air filter on it, correct? Any pictures of the failed timing tensioner? Is it possible that the noise he heard was actually an issue with the decompression system? |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/26/13 at 22:15:29 Its easy to get a bgreat spark when the starter isnt pulling the motor thru compression. If the battery isnt at 12.5 or better, charge it, do it slow & easy. Did you pull the chain off or just replace the tensioner? |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Chris99ls650 on 12/27/13 at 06:19:19 I had to wait and charge the battery lastnight after i filled it so I didnt get to try and start it lastnight. I will for sure tonight after work. I didnt replace the chain itself. So can I just remove the compression cable itself from where it hooked up and try to start it? I do have a air filter in the bike. I can take pics of the tensioner tonight. It didnt look bad but was extended to wear it almost was going to fall out. Do you think the chain is stretched to much to run safely? Thanks |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by S-P on 12/27/13 at 09:34:34 Check this topic: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1191167029 That's what mine looked like when I pulled the side cover. I parked it and did the modified adjuster. It's not worth taking a chance having it fall apart and having to get a new engine. |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Chris99ls650 on 12/27/13 at 09:44:40 Yes thats about what mine looked. Did the aftermarket conversion on it but it still isnt starting. |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Chris99ls650 on 12/27/13 at 12:46:35 Now im starting to wonder if the DC silenoid is bad itself. Correct me if im wrong. If the DC silenoid is not working properly then it could keep the valves open at all times therefore releasing compression constatly. If so then would that push air out of the carb into the airbox instead out of the exhaust. Which could keep the bike from starting or hitting at all????? Is this correct? |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by old_rider on 12/27/13 at 13:15:26 Is it turning over? (make sure the piston moves, it could have frozen in place if sitting awhile) Have you checked the safety switches? (kickstand, clutch, on/off) to make sure they were not engaged? Clutch has to be held in to start,, even in neutral...its a Suzuki thing (not sure you would know this) What is the voltage going to the starter?(you might have spark but not enough to keep it running) If you have not gone over all the electrical connections (might be your friend is not as knowledgeable as you are about bikes) this bike tends to vibrate a bit. Hope my little contribution helps.... its all I could think of right off the bat. Um, fuses?.... don't think it applies, but you never know! finicky critters sometimes.... ya gotta learn her ways to satify her! :) |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Chris99ls650 on 12/27/13 at 13:58:31 Yes the motor turns over. I have checked all electrical things such as clutch in kill switch on kick stand up or down doesnt change a thing. Fuses are good. Piston is cranking. Going to try and unhook the connections to the DC silenoid and see if thats it. |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Dave on 12/27/13 at 14:05:26 The decompression solenoid pulls on a cable, and it pulls a small lever near the spark plug that holds the exhaust valve open just long enough to get the engine spinning - then it releases. Don't take anything apart yet, just hit the starter and watch that lever........and see if the solenoid opens and closes the lever briefly when you hit the starter. If the lever returns to horizontal - the valves can work properly. Do you know anything about the age of the battery? |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Chris99ls650 on 12/27/13 at 14:33:58 I just bought a brand new battery lastnight and had to charge for 12 hours so i will be trying different things tonight. First im going to do a compression test- should be 140-200 I think. Needs to be serviced around 116psi I think. Second Im going to try some starter fluid. If that dont get it to hit then im going to disconnect the DC sileniod to see if the valves are being stuck open. If none of that does anything for it then im going to check the timing on it. I can see the DC silenoid trying to work but i havnt looked at it long enough to inspect excatly what its doing. I will tonight as well. |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Chris99ls650 on 12/27/13 at 18:54:50 Well I think Ive narrowed it down to the timing being off. Wish me luck on attempting to Doing this myself. |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Serowbot on 12/27/13 at 22:28:15 Give a squirt of oil into the sparkplug hole... Constant trying, without starting, can create a gas wash that removes the oil seal from the rings and will drop compression to nuttin'... |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/27/13 at 22:38:03 Take a volt meter & test the battery voltage. New? Great,, Ive bought a new battery that wasnt healthy. You charged it 12 hours, with what kinda charger? How many amps? Is it a sealed battery? |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by old_rider on 12/27/13 at 23:14:05 1833293228313A363E285B0 wrote:
If all you did was replace the tension plate, the timing should not be off. Its sounding more like a fuel issue, did you try starter fluid or wd40 in the intake? Sounds like you know the route for trouble shooting, but unless you unhooked the chain off the pulleys timing should not be an issue. Unless yer bud had similar problems.... Re-align your mark, set the piston at top, reset the chain, replace the tension plate...and try again... that's all I can tell you... hope the guru's have a better plan that is faster and easier. |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/28/13 at 00:44:07 Did you take the cam chain off? Did you turn the motor while the tensioner was off? If the tensioner hadnt puked its guts into the engine, then putting the Versy in will make it go & be safe for a few thousand miles anyway, You Did get a Versy, right? |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Chris99ls650 on 12/28/13 at 06:49:50 Yes versy tensioner. Yes brand new battery. I didn't see the bike run myself just taking a friends word. I didn't take the cam chain off. When I got the bike it was all there except the cam chain tensioner. It was already off the bike as a mech shop had told my friend that what was wrong with the bike. I myself never rolled the bike in gear without the tensioner. But who knows if some one did. I've tried spraying starting fluid down the plug hole itself then try and start. And it just gives me a couple pop then just cranks over and over. Ill test the brand new battery here in a min. Really Wana see this thing start so I can work on cosmetics. This is already a very clean bike. |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/28/13 at 09:03:13 Put some oil in the plug hole, not a lot, then spikn it over, then put the plug in. Spray starter juice in the air filter area. Now you should have good compression ( oil in cylinder) & fuel ( starter juice). If youve got spark, it otta hit. If it hits & dies, its fuel. Take the carb off & clean it up. We can walk ya thru that. |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Chris99ls650 on 12/29/13 at 15:22:51 Pulled it apart lastnight and sure enough timing was off. Fixed that put it back together and she started right up. |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Serowbot on 12/29/13 at 16:33:59 53786279637A717D7563100 wrote:
We don't always give the right advice... we just keep you talkin' 'till you fix it... Then we take the credit... :-?... Yer' welcome..;D... |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by old_rider on 12/29/13 at 21:31:13 Good job Chris! |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/29/13 at 22:58:56 Ive tried to move the chain on the gears,, I couldnt do it. Maybe the PO had the cam out & got it back in wrong? Did you measure the tensioner to see how far it is extended? I musta missed it, but did you put a Versy tensioner in? Anyway, good job. Pretty quick gettin in & out.. takes me that long to get things sorted & cleaned. |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by S-P on 12/30/13 at 00:51:59 507B617A6079727E7660130 wrote:
Awesome! I may need to do my cam chain, so did you remove the head etc. with the engine still on the bike? How did that go? Any tricks? I've heard it's easier to remove the engine to do head work. |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Chris99ls650 on 12/30/13 at 09:56:35 No i did it with the motor still on the bike. It wasnt to bad. Though things would be easier with a motorcycle lift. I should invest in one since ive brought 38 bikes back to life in the past 3 years. |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Chris99ls650 on 12/30/13 at 09:59:22 I just unbolted the cam gear from the cam pulled it towards me a little while keeping tension on the chain. Then lined up the crank marks and the cam marks put it back on with TDC and bolted it up. |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Chris99ls650 on 12/30/13 at 10:01:19 Now im thinking of how i can start making a way cheaper tensioner myself. I will take some pics of what i have in mind and can me made very easy. It will be a manual adjuster but heck you need to keep and eye on a stock one so i figured every 5k it should be checked and tightend a little. |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Chris99ls650 on 12/30/13 at 10:03:01 A adjustable end link should do the trick just fine and you can pick up the parts at lowes or any other hardware store. |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Chris99ls650 on 12/30/13 at 10:10:26 Here's a pic |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by S-P on 12/30/13 at 10:48:43 Now that is clever! I'm just wondering how loose the chain can get (or noisy) in between adjustments since the stock tensioner is spring loaded and keeps a constant pressure on the chain to take up the slack as it gets looser. |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Dave on 12/30/13 at 11:14:22 Well I am anxious for you to install that tensioner and let us know how it works. I would suggest you measure the length between bolt centers before you take the stock one out.....then adjust your manual one to match. You might also use some form of metal lock nuts for the jam nuts.....nuts that have a tight friction fit just to keep them from vibrating loose. Several people offer manual tensioner replacements for sport bikes, as the stock automatic tensioners can fail. The only basic difference is that those can be adjusted from outside the engine, and don't require you to take the engine case off to make an adjustment. Get going.....install that thing are start racking up some durability testing miles! |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Steve H on 12/30/13 at 13:32:59 Chain might last longer too without heating and stretching and then the tensioner coming out another notch and holding it there. It'll get to go back to size a little easier. |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by old_rider on 12/30/13 at 14:25:58 Not to throw a wrench in your line of thinking but.... spinning chains change tension with speed and torque. If you have a solid tensioner, it will not allow the chain to flex as it needs to do as it spins around the gears, might want to add a spring side to that somehow. I would be a bit afraid to throw a solid tensioner in there, the tension plate would wear really quick with the chain stretching and tightening as it move around the gears. |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Dave on 12/30/13 at 15:43:45 37343C2A313C3D2A580 wrote:
old_rider: Our stock tensioner has no give built in. It has a ratchet that does not allow any release in tension. The spring pushes the tensioner out when the engine is cold...then as the engine heats up and the chain becomes tight.......or as the engine pulls on the chain.....there is no release. On occasion the tensioner may even add a notch of tension when the chain is made a bit slack by the acceleration or deceleration of the engine....sport bike riders are having that problem with their bikes that accelerate very quickly. The solution they have is to replace their automatic tensioner with a manual (solid) one. A properly adjusted manual tensioner will be a tad loose when cold - but will not keep adding too much tension with each heat cycle. Only time will tell how often they have to be adjusted manually.....but I believe it won't be very often. Here is a Sport Bike manual tensioner. |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/30/13 at 22:20:55 You mite not be the typical Savage "newbie". I apologize for having failed to ask more questions about YOU instead of the bike. If you wanna tell about some of the work youve done resurrecting some of those bikes I know Id read it, Others have threatened to go with a manual adjuster. I can see ( mentally, visualize) several ways to go at it. If I was gonna do it Id really want to modify the side cover. An inspection plate that allowed access to that area, avoiding having to pull the whole side, dodging the pegs/exhaust & all that hassle, thats what just keeps coming to the front for me, Or, an adjuster that can be tightened kinda like a brake drum adjuster. A slot cut out of the cover that would allow a slim flat blade & snug it up. That little turnbuckle with a washer notched on the edge & a spring that drags on it to keep it from backing off, That thing may be too fat, may seem some clearance issues, but theres my mental image of what Id try. Until the sides off & parts are in hand, thers no telling just what there is room for. |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Dave on 12/31/13 at 08:24:57 The manual tensioner proposed has spherical ends, which will allow angular movements of each end - while the stock tensioner has rigid ends that will prevent angular movements. The chain rail has an offset mount - which might tend to put an eccentric load on the chain rail and promote twisting. Not sure if this is an issue.....but I wanted to bring it to your attention. http://i44.tinypic.com/vqs5zt.jpg |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Chris99ls650 on 01/04/14 at 22:31:38 Well my bike seems to be running great lately so Ive been busy with the looks. |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by jcstokes on 01/04/14 at 23:20:49 Pity we couldn't see the whole bike. Just wondering if you are considering a fork brace if you intend running without the front mudguard/fender? |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Chris99ls650 on 01/05/14 at 07:27:38 I tried loading a pic of the whole bike but it wasn't letting me.its not done yet but here's what Ive done so far. Ended up going with a Biltwell seat. Just mounted the cat eye brake light don't have a pic of it on |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Chris99ls650 on 01/05/14 at 07:33:07 Also going to pick up a 7in trailer fender for the rear and yes Im going to make a front fork brace. Like I said its far from done but 1 more week and she should be done. Going with vinyl wrap on the tank and fender as well. I've done it on a few other bikes and like it since I can change the looks every month if I don't like it or just want to change it up. |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Chris99ls650 on 01/05/14 at 07:35:55 Here's a pic of one of my bikes wrapped. |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Chris99ls650 on 01/07/14 at 09:43:59 Finally got the seat mounted up with out cutting or welding at all on the frame. It turned out to be a very clean install. Ill post pics soon |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Chris99ls650 on 01/07/14 at 09:45:40 Anyone have any problems getting a 7in trailer fender to fit the rear. It looks like ill have to trim a little around the belt but other than that any problems? |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Dave on 01/07/14 at 09:56:24 1D362C372D343F333B2D5E0 wrote:
See if you can rotate the photos this time so they post upright. This forum doesn't have a way to automatically fix them - I spent 15 minutes fixing them this morning so I didn't have to set my computer screen on it's side! ;D |
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Title: Re: Lets see if this forum can help me and my sava Post by Chris99ls650 on 01/07/14 at 12:11:45 Ok thanks. I dont know why it did that, but from my phone they arent sideways. Ill try |
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