SuzukiSavage.com - Print Page

SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl
General Category >> The Cafe >> In Need of expert tape/paint help.
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1387812207

Message started by Dave on 12/23/13 at 07:23:27

Title: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by Dave on 12/23/13 at 07:23:27

I am in the process of picking out a paint scheme for my bike. I have decided to use a checkerboard stripe down the middle of the tank and fenders. The bike will be red, the stripe will be the base red with black checkerboard pattern, and there will be a thin white stripe on each side of the checkerboard stripe.

My GT550 tank has a raised panel down the center, and on Saturday I played with taping off the stripe and spraying it with a rattle can to see what kind of success I would have. It was just a quick tape and spray and I only did from the filler neck back.....and I like the look.

http://i39.tinypic.com/v2wggk.jpg

The problem that I have is first you tape off a grid and make the a set of squares, then when that is dry you have to go back and tape over one set of squares to make the next offset set of squares to complete the checkerboard. When the tape crosses over the tape going the other way, it is hard (impossible) to get the tape to seal and paint bleeds under the tape. I used 3/4" masking tape on the tank, and then later I tried taping up a piece of metal siding using the blue fine line tape that you get at auto paint stores....and I took great care to push the tape down with my fingernail and a screwdriver. I still had a bleeding problem. Maybe the rattle can paint is thinner than what would be sprayed from gun for a base coat/clear coat and that paint would not bleed as much.

http://i43.tinypic.com/2pocfu0.jpg

So my next thought is that I can go to a vinyl sign company and have them cut out the squares in vinyl, and I can either use them to tape out a grid to be painted.....or just use the black vinyl squares and then clear coat over them. My thought about using the vinyl as (tape) stencil to be sprayed over.....is the vinyl is made to stick and the adhevsive is much more aggressive than masking tape - it may be really hard to get off after spraying the paint.

I am thinking at this point I paint the red color, then apply the vinyl squares, then the white vinyl stripes, then clear coat over everything. Anbody got a better idea?

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by engineer on 12/23/13 at 07:48:32

http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/m/m83bCYTS6XpHZCPRoqG-BUQ/96.jpg

Hopefully the image of a roll of checkerboard tape leads off this reply. Like you I would rather have painted checks but I don't know the best way to do that.

Several custom shops and various vendors on ebay sell the tape. I think that is the way most people are doing it but then you are stuck with a white background.

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by S-P on 12/23/13 at 07:54:52

Checkerboard is done with some very careful taping off and good paint spraying technique, mainly a couple three light coats instead of one heavy one. Expensive, no bleed masking tape too.

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by Dave on 12/23/13 at 07:57:52

67656E656C656973000 wrote:

I don't think tape will work, as the tank and fenders are both compound curves and flat tape of any kind won't be flexible enough to adapt to the shape. The actual size of the square will need to be adjusted a bit to account for the fact that the length of the stripe will be longer in the center and shorter on the edges.

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by Blinky-FSO on 12/23/13 at 08:02:28

Dave,
I am certainly no expert but back in the day after the tape was down, we would apply one or two very light coats of clear to seal the tape edges and prevent bleed.

For what it is worth

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by arteacher on 12/23/13 at 08:05:53

6B6C7D6E7D7668796D74180 wrote:

Checkerboard is done with some very careful taping off and good paint spraying technique, mainly a couple three light coats instead of one heavy one. Expensive, no bleed masking tape too.

Exactly- as soon as you put it on wet enough to flow it will flow under the edges of the tape. Several "mist" coats with enough time between them for the paint to dry thoroughly is the answer. After everything is dry, remove the tape and wet sand with 1000 grit paper to remove the edges of the paint and then clear coat.

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by ToesNose on 12/23/13 at 08:33:38

Hey Dave how about visiting some local sign shops and seeing if they would make a vinyl wrap just for the center raised part of your tank with the checkerboard, the nice thing about that is they can taper it to aesthetically fit the contours of the tank better too like a pro painter/taper would.

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by Dave on 12/23/13 at 09:00:38

Blinky.....The light coat of clear is a great idea.

And to the others that have suggested using dry coats.....that will help as well as I did apply the rattle can paint in a pretty heavy coat.

Also.....I just got back from the auto paint supply store.....and they had some advice as well. They commented that the blue fine line vinyl tape I used in the second trial is wound very tight on the roll.....and that it shrinks once you take it off the roll....and that tends to make it pull up off the surface a bit when it goes over another taped line. They suggested that you pull a piece off the roll and cut it to the length you need....then let it sit for a bit for the size to stabilize. It will then stay down better once it is applied, and that you need to be careful not to pull tightly on it while it is being applied.

They also sold me a roll of green fine masking tape that works better for making straight lines, and it stays down better than the blue which is really made for making curved lines.

And finally......if I can't make the paint work well on some sample pieces, I will try going the vinyl sticker or vinyl wrap way.

Thanks.....they have all been very helpfull suggestions, and I hope this turns out to be a great group project for us!

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by old_rider on 12/23/13 at 09:39:03

You could always paint the tank red, get an inverted tape from the graphics shop (meaning they use a clear tape with the checks picked out), apply the inverted clear tape, cover the whole tank, spray your black, then wait for dry, peel the tape, polish (to take off the sharp edges of the squares), and then clear coat.

Or paint the tank black, then apply your graphic tape (with squares already cut but not removed), peel it off leaving the squares, paint your red, the carefully peal the squares away, polish, then clear coat....

Or... get an artist to paint each square by hand....

Hope this helps....

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by Dave on 12/23/13 at 12:25:56

6A6961776C616077050 wrote:

The inverted tape issue has two problems. The flat sheet cannot deal well with the compound curves. Imagine trying to press the paper/vinyl on the top of your helmet.....and you will understand what it is going to be like to get it onto the curved part of the bodywork behind the seat. Also, for a checkerboard to be made on a single sheet.....there is essentially nothing connecting the squares together....they only touch at a tiny tip. They can make checkerboard patterns when they have the paper backing to hold them together - but once again that paper is really bad at following curves that go in both directions.

I am going to paint the bodywork red first, then get a clear coat on it to protect the base paint. Then I will start masking and painting on top of that. One reason is that the red should be painted over a light colored base, and the black covers well over any color. I most likely will do the white stripes last.....as it will be difficult to get the absolute correct spot for the stripes prior to knowing exactly where the edges of the squares will be.

Taping is really the best way to work through the curves....if it can be done without bleeding under all the tape edges.

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by old_rider on 12/23/13 at 14:48:04

Dave the good/bad thing about the vinyl is that when you heat it a little, you can bend it over humps, bumps and small curves.
Now I'm not talking vinyl "tape", i'm talking vinyl "decals", some places its considered the same thing... but the decal stuff can take paint.
My little ninja has decal vinyl
http://i1047.photobucket.com/albums/b471/Orphistle/My%20Bikes/IMAG0472.jpg

The one on the muffler heat shield washed off after I tried to use a solvent on it, so I peeled it off, it had been on for about 5 months and came off easily.
The star and bar decal actually goes over a curving hump, took a little time but I got it good enough

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by Dave on 01/16/14 at 06:50:23

I have been working on this, and by the weekend I will know if I have what it takes to do the checker pattern.

I did my first base/clear coat work in 10 years last weekend. It went well, except for the thumb print I must have put on one side panel....the paint would not stick to that area at all. I had wiped all the parts down with wax and grease remover - but I must have missed a spot. I had to clean, sand and re-prime that area, and will repaint it this weekend.
http://i40.tinypic.com/etekwo.jpg

I painted a piece of scrap aluminum with the primer and paint that was left in the gun when I was done spraying the real parts. I am using this panel to be my test subject for the taping and painting of the checker pattern. Now that I am spraying with my gun again.....I realize how little control you have with a rattle can. I sure I can put the paint out thinner and drier with the spray gun, and I have a lot more control over how much paint comes out of the gun....and hopefully that will stop the paint creep under the tape edges. In retrospect I sprayed way too much paint when I did the rattle can trial.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2z4b66w.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/t9a1eh.jpg

I taped this up with 1/4" tape and did it quickly....so that I might learn how precise I have to be when doing the final taping. I also found that you have to have the work directly in front of you - if you start tapinng off to either side the lines started to get crooked and made a noticdeable and cumulative slant to the tape lines. This is a flat piece of aluminum, while the bike fender, tank and seat are curved - and there will be some work needed to correct for the curvature as the tape is being applied. The stripe width may ultimately be 1/4" for the front fender, 1/2" for the tank....and 3/16" for the seat/rear fender bump. I need to see this sample in person to help me decided on the width to use.

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by Oldfeller on 01/16/14 at 06:59:07

The first coat over the tape determines the amount of bleed through underneath the tape edge.

So go very light on that first coat.

Second coat, same again -- very light.

You cannot lay down thickness until there is a solid barrier of dried paint at the tape edge.

Next, the tape you use counts -- get car painter's tape that is proof against car paint solvents.

..... that's all the expert I got, sorry. My car and bike painting career was long ago and far far away, back in my college days.

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by Dave on 01/16/14 at 07:14:26

Thanks OF.

The tape I am using is all 3M fine line tape I bought from Auto Paint Suppliers. I just spent $ 45 yesterday on tape!

I am thinking that maybe the paint application for the squares does not need to be really dark and heavy....it might be fine just to have an even mist of black color that defines the checkerboard. The only problem with that is how does an amature painter apply an even mist on all the sufaces.....in two seperate tape applications? If the square colors are not consistent it will not look good. I will experiment a bit with that.....maybe I just do a single light mist with the black color.

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by Serowbot on 01/16/14 at 08:18:02

I think the trick is to use a single sheet to mask... (the problem seems to occur where the tape lines cross over each other)... :-?...
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6Rb7DQjVDI[/media]

If you really want it painted instead of a sticker,.. you might consider trying laying down a sticker,.. then hand cutting out the squares and using the result as yer' mask...
... I'm no painter... just thinking out loud... :-?...
http://www.amazon.com/Con-Tact-Creative-Covering-Self-Adhesive-Boardwalk/dp/B00D8GOM3O/ref=pd_sim_hi_4/178-1859640-7736536

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by Pine on 01/16/14 at 08:33:27

I have ZERO expertise....

but then you said you may CLEAR over it. At which point it makes little difference what the subtrate is. So maybe>>>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKuXyeAGzEU

just need to find the checkboard.

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by Dave on 01/17/14 at 13:08:25

Pine:

That is one cool video and coating process....might be a little tough to submerge a 3 gallon tank smoothly.

I did the first part of the trial test today. I had it all taped up and then applied a dust coat, then a dry coat, then a third "damp" coat.

http://i39.tinypic.com/2i0dxtz.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/2dcbrtd.jpg

The removal of the tape shows clear lines and no bleed. I will let the black paint set up for a day or two so the solvents can come out and the paint can adhere to the base. Being sprayed so dry I am not sure how well it adheres to the red base......and I have to tape over the black to get the next set of squares painted....and I don't want the tape pulling the black paint off. I would prefer not to spray another clear coat over the black squares, as that is more painting and sanding. I believe I will just mask off half of the piece and try taping directly over the black to see if it works. This is a test piece....so I am exploring what works and what doesn't.

NOTE: There are some pits and rough spots in this piece, as I did not do much prep work on the metal. I just primed it and gave it a quick sanding, and did not spend anytime trying to make it perfectly smooth.

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by Dave on 01/19/14 at 09:43:00

Well I think this is going to work well. It is time consuming, it would be better if my eyes were as good as they were 20 years ago, and it would help to have a spray booth to help keep the dust down.

I found one issue that makes this a bit tough. The second spraying session to get the "in between" blocks requires you to tape over the black square you just painted....in both directions. So first I taped over the long lines......and when I went to tape across I realized I can't see the black squares through the green tape! To solve this I removed the tape over the outer long rows, then placed a line of 3/4" masking tape that matched up to the outer edge of the 2 outside long rows.......so I could tell where the outside of those squares was located. Then I taped across the lines using the two outside squares for alignment - which then hid the outer squares from view. Using the inside edges of the 3/4 inch tape - I was able to then place the 1/4" outside rows by just butting up against the 3/4" tape I had placed abutting outise of the squares. The black paint did not peel up when I removed the tape. I then placed a 1/8" white vinyl pinstripe on the outside and then clear coated everything. The pinstripes do make a raised line in the clearcoat.....not sure if that is a big deal as I remember the old Suzuki bikes from the 70's had raised cleaer over the decals and pinstripes. I do have some pinstripe stencils on order that would allow me to spray the white pintstripe and make the line blend in better.

http://i40.tinypic.com/1129bfl.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/34yw9eh.jpg

I am now going to try and do the front fender...then move on to the tank and seat.

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by Dave on 01/26/14 at 16:09:13

Well today the practice is over.....and I started on the real thing. I have the front fender pianted and cleared, sanded, and the first layer of black sprayed. The outer rows of green tape stay on as guides for taping across....as once you lay the tape over the black squares lengthwise and then go to tape across.....the black squares are all covered up and you can't see where the lines go across. By leaving the outer rows of tape.....I can see where the lines need to go! It has been fun learning how to do this....it sure does take a lot of time!

http://i44.tinypic.com/23icnlj.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/ifucs6.jpg

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by Serowbot on 01/26/14 at 16:27:17

Your project has given me a new appreciation for checkered stripes...

:)...

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/26/14 at 17:31:05

Yea, lots of stuff has a steep learning curve.. Ive spent many hours learning things that I needed to know
ONCE
Bout the time Im almost at the end of the project, my speed picks up, I get decent at it.,,, & then, I dont need to knoe it any more,, maybe for a few years,, by then, Ive forgotten the whole thing & hafta go thru all that pain again,.,, dang,, I hate that

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by Dave on 02/11/14 at 07:10:28

Well I have been working, learning and making progress.

I found that taping the first round takes some care to get things straight and even. The second taping is a bit of a problem as the first layer of tape covers up the painted squares - so when you go to tape the cross layers you can't see where the tape belongs to be exactly on top of the squares. I have been able to solve this by first taping all the lengthwise rows....then applying a row of tape on the outside edge that remains during both tapings. These outside rows establish the outer limits and gives you a permanent reference. I also found that if you tape lengthwise on the second taping using 1/2 width tape (1/8" if you are making 1/4" stripes), you can tape along one edge of squares and leave the other edge visible for taping across. Then when you have taped across with the 1/4" - you can go back and butt the 1/8" tape up against the previously applied 1/8" tape and complete the other side of the square. You then have to apply another 1/8" strip over the butt joint so no paint bleeds through between the tape joint. The taping of the front fender took 3 hours for each set of squares....6 hours total. When you add in the priming, paiting, taping, spraying, adding white pinstripes, clear coating, finish sanding and buffing....I probably have 20 hours of time and $60 worth of materials in the front fender alone!

http://i62.tinypic.com/sobek6.jpg
http://i59.tinypic.com/s4qbo3.jpg
http://i62.tinypic.com/v5ig78.jpg

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by Serowbot on 02/11/14 at 08:26:08

It was worth it...
That looks sharp as all getout!... ;)...

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by old_rider on 02/11/14 at 14:35:38

Holy Moly! Looks SHARP! Can't wait to see the way its going to look up close and personal! Good job Dave!

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by arteacher on 02/11/14 at 15:34:38

Excellent job!
Put a little scratch on it that is visible if you know where to look. That way when it does get scratched it won't be a big deal. My dad used to buy a new car every 3 years and he would drive it home from the dealer and put a scratch on it. He would say "now I don't have to worry about THAT anymore!" ;D

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by Dave on 02/11/14 at 18:15:19

747F7F767A75746E6F1B0 wrote:

Oh....I'm already worried while I am just moving the parts around. I do plan on riding it however.....I have been fussy about too many things, and I intend to ride and put miles on this bike!

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by Oldfeller on 02/11/14 at 20:35:14

Don't worry about it, MM and I will always have our Savages there to make your bike look better .....

;)

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by v-pilot on 02/11/14 at 20:51:24

Dave...you're an Animal! ;) That looks fantastic :o

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by Oldfeller on 02/13/14 at 05:50:55

Dave is an excellent and meticulous painter, he rides the curvies about the same way he paints, with them neat clean lines, never touching the yellow in the middle.

So, in the future we will ask him all the paint questions -- because he's really done it and it turned out jest about perfect.

Pretty Baby is going to be BEAUTIFUL this summer, I am looking forward to seeing it up close and personal.

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by Dave on 02/13/14 at 06:05:43

I appreciate all the nice comments.......it sure has been a learning process.

My lastest learning experience has to do with what rags to wipe with. I was using the white rolled paper towels to wipe on the paint prep to remove the grease and oils that might have gotten on the paint and cause "fish eyes"...those spots where the wet paint just doesn't want to stick. The problem with the white paper towels is they leave a lot of lint and paper fibers behind - especially when wiping over all those darn tape lines. The sticky edges of the tape especially like to grab onto the fibers and it make the tape edges fuzzy.

So I tried some blue paper "shop" towels....and they seemed a bit better. On my last attempt I used some clean cloth shop towels.....BIG MISTAKE. Although the shop towels were freshly washed, something in them cause a lot of fish eyes in the last coat of clear (which I had to sand off and try again). Maybe I had onced used those towels to apply or wipe-off Armorall......and a local painter told me that some laundry detergents and fabric softeners can cause this to happen.

So.....I am going to the paint store to buy some approved "rags" to wipe with! The only thing I have left to do is clear coat the top and bottom of the tank, and then sand with 2000 grit and buff the clear coat on all the parts. It won't be long now....maybe a couple of weeks!

The local paint supply store now has the ability to mix and place any kind of paint in high pressure spray cans. They have a sample car fender in the store that they painted with their spray cans, and it is blue metallic and it looks great. The clear coat paint has to be used within something like 24 hours after they mix it - but it will be gasoline proof when cured. This is a good option for those without compressors or spray equipment if their paint stores can mix paint this way. Eastwood also offers 2K paints that can be activated in the can in case the local stores can't mix it for you.

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by Steve H on 02/13/14 at 07:04:24

Dave, that looks great!

I know it's been a learning process and you've got it down. I sure don't have the patience for something like that.

You've done a wonderful job. I know the bike's gonna look great with it all on.

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by old_rider on 02/13/14 at 11:08:00

Ok Dave, where is the you tube video of your process?....tap...tap....tap... LOL ! ;)

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by Dave on 02/13/14 at 17:58:38

71727A6C777A7B6C1E0 wrote:

Ok Dave, where is the you tube video of your process?....tap...tap....tap... LOL ! ;)

After seeing all those folks with cameras hurting themselves on YouTube......I am not sure a video camera is a good thing to own.

I can do some crappy still photos.....no video ability yet. :'(

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by Dave on 02/18/14 at 09:31:10

The onliest thing left to do is the sanding and buffing.......unless I sand or buff through the clear coat!

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by old_rider on 02/18/14 at 10:51:20

OH MY!

Title: Re: In Need of expert tape/paint help.
Post by Gerry on 02/18/14 at 13:42:24

Nice job!
I hope mine comes out half that well :)
Gerry