|
SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Smoke and Noise Oh my... /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1387047190 Message started by S-P on 12/14/13 at 10:53:10 |
|
Title: Smoke and Noise Oh my... Post by S-P on 12/14/13 at 10:53:10 So I replaced the cam chain tensioner and the starter limiter and a Raptor petcock. Now the bike is hard starting when cold, (in Arizona that means 45 F) I have to shoot some starter fluid in the air cleaner to get it started (first thing in the morning, starts OK the rest of the day). And I get quite a bit of white/blue smoke for a minute or so if the bike has been sitting for a few hours. I have a new noise coming from up around the valve cover area at idle, not a tapping more like a prounounced "whirrrr". Diagnostics? |
|
Title: Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/14/13 at 13:14:07 How did you release the tensioner onto the chain? YOu didnt press it out to make it tight, did you? Did you take the chain off? |
|
Title: Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my... Post by S-P on 12/14/13 at 15:16:25 Hm. I didn't take the chain off. However, while the tensioner was out I did work on the other side of the motor to put the limiter in and had to rotate the engine to get the notch lined up to get the old gear off and the new one in. Any chance the chain slipped, timing went south or something happened on the other side when I did that? Regarding the tensioner, basically, I just removed the tensioner and compressed the verslavy and put it back in. The plunger was fully compressed into the cylinder when I installed it and didn't move much when I took the "keeper" out. I've taken it out for a few runs. Probably put 20 miles on it and it seems to run OK, idle OK and accelerates OK, but seems like it is dogging just a bit from how it used to run. Could it have jumped timing? |
|
Title: Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/14/13 at 17:09:57 If it still pulls right & starts up right once its warmed up, I have a hard time seein a timing issue,, Im kida stumped,., lets let some of the Deep Innards guys have a shot at it. |
|
Title: Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my... Post by S-P on 12/14/13 at 17:17:51 Yeah, Justin, since the timing is "set" (from what I gather), it isn't like you can be off like in a car even if the chain jumped a link. I'm wondering if the Raptor petcock is flooding the motor (I turned it to the "OFF" position last night and it still started hard this morning and fired up with some starter fluid). The smoke is what's throwing me too, it didn't smoke before I did the changes. |
|
Title: Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my... Post by Serowbot on 12/14/13 at 18:13:37 Did you block off the vacuum tap on the carb?... |
|
Title: Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my... Post by verslagen1 on 12/14/13 at 18:14:02 So you had up to 55 and above? |
|
Title: Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my... Post by S-P on 12/14/13 at 18:42:47 Yes, the vacuum is blocked off. And yes I had it up to 55-60, accelerated pretty hard, ran steady at 55, and it pulled OK through the gears, but the seat of my pants said it could be better. No missing or noticeable dead spots. I didn't hear any loud ticking or ratttling at high speed (at least not through my helmet). It is mainly when it is idling and when I roll the throttle on a little in neutral that I can hear a bit of noise I hadn't heard before. It doesn't seem to get louder or related to the speed of the engine that I can tell. I may need to ride it around without my helmet and give it a listen. I could just be paranoid about the engine noises, but again, it's the hard starting and smoking that has me baffled. |
|
Title: Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/14/13 at 19:17:03 Did you adjust the valves? Id so, are you certain you had turned the engine the right way & got it on real TDC? |
|
Title: Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my... Post by S-P on 12/14/13 at 19:39:24 No, didn't adjust the valves after doing the work. I thought about that, but didn't think the stuff I did would affect the valve adjustment. Might not be a bad idea to just do it. The stuff on other forums for other bikes seem to indicated oil leaking past the valve guides overnight. I just think it is kinda weird that didn't happen before the work I did. |
|
Title: Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my... Post by Serowbot on 12/14/13 at 21:12:54 Leaky valve guides would be very weird... I would disregard that thought... That's a slow process,.. not an overnighter... Noises, unless they are blatant, may be paranoia... (I always hear new sounds when I pay attention)... I'd stick with just the starting, low idle symptom... It is more concrete... Neither a Raptor, nor a Versy mod will do that... There must be some other culprit... |
|
Title: Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my... Post by Oldfeller on 12/14/13 at 22:08:28 If he had a bad vac petcock it could have been supplying extra fuel through alternate pathways. Change to a Raptor, no extra fuel any more. Think about him having starting/idling characteristics that are now apparent when before they were being masked by vac petcock malfunctions. Afer all "poor starting" that requires a choke in wintertime is NORMAL for most folks. Quick starting fluid being needed, not so much. (see comments below on bad gas) ========================= Smoking at start up, ask for mileage and oil type used. Before I tore an engine down for Smoking at start up, I'd put in AN APPROPRIATE AMOUNT of a seal sweller into the oil and run it for an oil change to see if anything changes. Remember, you will only use 20-25% of what is recommended for a CAR (on most bottles, anyway). This treatment does change the weepage amount around the valve seals enough to let you see the change and let you know where your internal oil drips are coming from IF it is the valve seal. Once again, excess fuel can cause smoking at start up too. (see petcock off-on drill below) ================= That steady whirrrr noise from the cam chain sprocket area is puzzlesome to me -- our cam chain system is by and large silent unless it has run completely out of adjuster range. Agreed that step #1 is to do a full valve adjustment and report back what the existing clearance numbers really were before you fixed them. ==================== Next, always shut your petcock OFF as soon as you get off the bike and when you get ready to go, start it first then get it idling good then turn your petcock ON. When you report back on the effects if any from this little trick you will be telling us if your float valve and seat are leaking on you some. ======================== You would be amazed at how many odd things take place after a rebuild because you had a very old partial tank of gas that you had topped off with whatever you had sitting around in a can somewhere. Get some fresh gas in the bike too .... |
|
Title: Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my... Post by verslagen1 on 12/14/13 at 23:20:54 71766774676C7263776E020 wrote:
I've tried this, and it's very difficult for this to happen. I couldn't get it to do it. You would've had to force the crank and probably hear a snap. |
|
Title: Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my... Post by old_rider on 12/14/13 at 23:28:46 S-P Did your petcock malfunction and did you get fuel in your airbox? in your crankcase? Did you run the bike with fuel in the oil? (might not have noticed it at the time) When you had your case side off, did you cover it so as not to get moisture in the case? (could be residual water slipping past the piston rings and burning) Just asking.... i'm not a savage guru... so i'll let them talk ya thru it. |
|
Title: Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my... Post by S-P on 12/15/13 at 09:11:42 Thanks, everyone. I was wondering about the new petcock. My old one was definitely going, the bike was hesitating on acceleration, idling crappy etc. (I did have the carb re-jetted and the airbox removed etc. already. I didn't have to choke it to get started after that. It does run better with the new Raptor. I did start shutting it off after I ride it, I'm wondering if maybe I should shut it off a few seconds before I shut the bike down and see if that makes a difference for possible flooding. I did stuff all the openings, so I don't think it is water in the case. I may change the gas since I did drain it into our lawnmower gas can to change the petcock. It looked clean, but you never know. I'll definitely do a valve adjustment and check the pre-adjustment gaps. If that doesn't work then the sealer in the oil. Mileage? That's a mystery, it's a used 86 engine in a 2005 frame, the previous owner claimed "low miles". That's why I checked the tensioner. It was about 15mm out. The shop I took it to to replace the oil seal in the head said the cam and jug looked good, so no blatant signs of high mileage or abuse. I put 20-50 Mobil synthetic oil in it so it shouldn't be too thin for our weather. And yeah, noises on an aircooled engine can drive you nuts. My old VW's were always talking to me in foreign languages. :D |
|
Title: Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my... Post by Dave on 12/15/13 at 10:22:02 Any chance the smoke on start up is just exhaust condensation in the cold exhaust system? He did report is was 45 degrees. An old mechanic showed my how to tell the difference between fuel and oil and oil in the exhaust. Place a mirror in front of the exhaust and see if the smoke is just water vapor.....or oil |
|
Title: Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my... Post by Oldfeller on 12/15/13 at 10:37:30 My money is now riding on "bad gas". Sight unseen, let me bet that you used a fuel stabilizer of some sort on the bike's gas (or possibly on the mower can). With some evaporation to thicken the mix you may be just about running two stroke pre-mix at this stage of the game. ::) (don't laugh, I had to learn the hard way to ACCURATELY MEASURE the amount of Stabil to the actual amount of gas in the tank) |
|
Title: Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/15/13 at 11:56:20 Yea, weve seen some goofy hassles solved by draining the gas & dumpin some fresh in,, Thats the simplest thing to try & sure likely to do the trick. Save the gas that comes out, itll go in a 20 gallon tank & not hurt anything. |
|
Title: Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my... Post by S-P on 12/15/13 at 12:33:57 No stabalizer in the gas for sure, but no telling what might have been in the gas can either. I'll drain the tank and put fresh hi-octane in and see what happens. I hope it's that simple! |
|
Title: Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/15/13 at 13:31:59 No need for high octane, put regular in it. Its designed for it, runs great on it, dont add a variable, JUst get some fresh gas, a gallon is plenty. Im hoping you see a real change, |
|
Title: Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my... Post by S-P on 12/15/13 at 14:10:26 Fresh gas just added, and yeppers, a real change! I'll do a valve adjustment later this week when I get some time and see if that quiets things down a little. By the way, are there any swap outs for spark plugs or is it just best to go with OEM? |
|
Title: Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/15/13 at 16:58:05 If youre hearing a whirring instead of a clickity,clickity, sewin machine sound, the valves may be tight, which is not good at all,,A little loose is a clattering sound, not ggreat, but survivable. Tight leads to unseated valves & burned seats & valves. Mite not wanna do much riding till ya get in there. |
|
Title: Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my... Post by S-P on 12/15/13 at 23:48:23 JOG, thanks for the heads up. I'll do the valves before I take it on another spin. It'll be another Zen maintenance adventure. |
|
Title: Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/15/13 at 23:55:50 I think thats a decent plan, |
|
Title: Cam Chain Replacement '86 Post by S-P on 12/21/13 at 22:41:59 So, do I need to remove the head (and thus the engine) to replace a cam chain on an '86? Thanks! |
|
Title: Re: Cam Chain Replacement '86 Post by wambr on 12/21/13 at 22:59:40 as far as I know, it already seems unnecessary... the engine out of the frame may have to, but only if it is not possible to remove the cylinder head cover |
|
Title: Re: Cam Chain Replacement '86 Post by verslagen1 on 12/21/13 at 23:06:01 i would, much easier just to pull the engine. |
|
Title: Re: Cam Chain Replacement '86 Post by S-P on 12/22/13 at 07:45:34 Are there any tricks to pulling the engine? Like how to keep it in place once all the bolts are removed, the order, what HAS to come off the frame etc? Then getting it back in and held in place while re-installing bolts? That would be a cool tutorial in the tech doc section if anyone has already put that in the 700 forum discussions someplace. Thanks. |
|
Title: Re: Cam Chain Replacement '86 Post by Serowbot on 12/22/13 at 08:48:24 Do you really need to replace the chain?... ... or just add a modded Versy adjuster?... I don't plan on doing chain replacement until it starts rattlin' on the second adjuster hole... It's quiet as a mouse now,.. at 32k miles... |
|
Title: Re: Cam Chain Replacement '86 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/22/13 at 13:42:03 Ive had the cam out twice. Never pulled the head or engine. I ran some all thread thru where the peg bolts went just to keep the engine from drifting down. I cant remember how I dealt with the sidestand. Working on the clutch side isnt too hard, since it the high side when its on the stand, |
|
Title: Re: Cam Chain Replacement '86 Post by S-P on 12/22/13 at 20:49:19 I just did the versy adjuster (the adjuster was about to fall out) and the starter limiter gear mods, so I've had both sides of the case open. I was able to move the shifter and kickstand stuff out of the way by pushing the engine bolts out about 3-4 inches and using an extension on the ratchet to get to the lower case bolts. I do have a motorcyle lift so I can move the kickstand assembly. I'm hearing a slight high pitched something coming from the cam chain side of the motor at low RPMs, my imagination is it is the chain rattling on something. It disappears at higher RPMs. I'm just thinking worst case scenario down the road if I screwed up the cam chain tensioner install somehow or the chain is going. It is an '86 and I have no idea how many miles are on it, it was installed by the previous owner who blew up his 2005 motor. It seems to run well now and the mechanic who did the head seal said the jug looked good when he had the head off. The problem is, I have no point of reference for what are normal Savage noises. I know thumpers are noisy beasts, but I don't know what is within the realm of normal noise levels. |
|
Title: Re: Cam Chain Replacement '86 Post by verslagen1 on 12/22/13 at 21:06:13 My whinner turned out to be a bad bearing on the counterbalencer. Loud and intermittent, usually only for a few seconds, heard at high speed, of course I rarely go slow. 8-) all of the bearing are splash lubricated. you could take the covers off and inspect with a magnifying glass. take sparky out and rotate and observe. |
|
Title: Re: Cam Chain Replacement '86 Post by anebv8 on 12/22/13 at 22:44:10 stu-pidass question here...looking thru the motorcycle handyman photos it shows the TDC on the rotor and engine crankcase,is this on the left side of the motor? (clutch side,as I've had a couple of jacks and looking at the bike upside down) :D ;D left side stator and timing port, right is clutch. - v1 |
|
Title: Re: Cam Chain Replacement '86 Post by wambr on 12/22/13 at 22:56:25 Yes, labels for installation of the engine crankshaft at TDC are under the left (in direction of motorcycle) crankcase cover , where the starter clutch |
|
Title: Re: Cam Chain Replacement '86 Post by S-P on 12/23/13 at 06:35:40 No such thing as a stupid-arse question, just people who are too stupid to ask a question when they know they don't know the answer the screw stuff up. At my age I'd rather learn from other people's expensive mistakes than get another PhD in stupid and have to take out more ;D student loans to get it. |
|
Title: Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my... Post by Dave on 12/23/13 at 10:36:01 S-P: I have spliced your two thread together....they are basically the same problem and I needed the "flow" to see what had been done before we started talking about the cam chain replacement. I am a bit confused by the "whir".....that always indiates a timing belt or chain that is too tight to me. I once tightend the timing belt on my VW GTI Rabbit too much....and it sure did make a whirring sound until I loosened it a bit. I would like you to confirm the oil pump is working correctly. Start the bike up and let it run for a few seconds, then take the front valve cover port off and see you the top end is oily......or dry. If oil is getting up there the rocker arm that is visible should have a coating of oil on it. |
|
Title: Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my... Post by S-P on 12/23/13 at 16:43:24 Hey Dave, Yeah the whirring noise sounds like a high pitched chain rattle to me. It happens on start up and when I tweak the throttle. It is most pronounced at low RPM/idle. I pulled the side cover this afternoon to check my chain guides and inspect the chain and verslavy. Everything looked OK. No metal filings in the oil or case, the verslavy shaft is out about 2- 3mm so I don't think the chain is too tight. I adjusted the valves yesterday and there was oil in the upper parts. So, I guess I'll ride it and just keep an ear open for something REALLY obnoxious. |
|
SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2! YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved. |