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Message started by old_rider on 12/05/13 at 21:06:25

Title: What is the smallest 12v alternator you have seen?
Post by old_rider on 12/05/13 at 21:06:25

Am going to do some experimenting with fan driven (air power) alternators and the max outputs I can put them through.

I really dislike that the savage has such a poor charging system and will work towards making a small generating (altenator) dc charger for maybe an add on or 2nd lithium battery to run accessories or even replace the current battery/charge setup.

The wife drives maybe 3 miles to work and back which isn't enough to keep a battery healthy. So now i'm looking at an extra type charging system that will assist the one on the bike.

Title: Re: What is the smallest 12v alternator you have s
Post by Serowbot on 12/05/13 at 21:37:37

Unless you are running extra lights or other power suckers,... as small as the stock alternator output is, it is shunting power as heat to the rectifier at almost any speed above idle...
Adding more, without using it, will just cook your rectifier faster... a battery will only charge so fast without damage...
The rectifier is there to prevent that...

I'd recommend just riding a little more,... or using a trickle charger...

Title: Re: What is the smallest 12v alternator you have s
Post by old_rider on 12/05/13 at 21:47:00

I am thinking of trickling the output or shunting it to only put out enough to add a small amperage.

Also I am wanting to experiment with the out put of several of them wired in synch (4-6), its driving me nutz I tell ya!

I'm planning on taking small fan blades and attaching them to the alternators and mounting them to a board attached to the crash bar setup for experimental purposes. Like in adding voltage to an electric car/bike/trike and trying to keep drag at a minimum.

I know that engineers will tell you the drag coefficient would be nullifying the aerodynamics causing a waste of energy, but I know in my backyard building heart I could make it produce more than drag would take away, thus enhancing or producing more mileage from an electric vehicle.

Or I could just put my new little 800W gen. in the trunk and run it to keep batteries charged, after all, it runs for 14 hours on 1 gal. of gas. :) ::)

Title: Re: What is the smallest 12v alternator you have s
Post by Serowbot on 12/05/13 at 22:03:03

Alright OR,... yer' officially wacky... ;D...

A. How about a little bicycle generator?... (clips to the forks and runs against the wheel?)...
B. Harbor Freight sells little solar car battery chargers that you could mount to charge the battery while is parked at work?... $20.00 I think...

...but,... what I'm basically saying is, I don't think you can charge the bike's battery enough in just 3 miles without cooking it... I'd look for something to charge while the bike sits...

Title: Re: What is the smallest 12v alternator you have s
Post by old_rider on 12/05/13 at 22:03:12

I messed with bicycle generators when I was a youngin' they take a LOT of torque to operate.

Maybe I could go this route, if I can find a used one some where to play with on blade sizes and speed of rotation. Bet these guys would be interested in it too, maybe I can talk them into letting me borrow a used one to experiment with their product.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/600-WATT-WIND-GENERATOR-TURBINE-MOTOR-PMA-ALTERNATOR-/260699369495?_trksid=p2054897.l4275

If I could do it right I could just mount a couple of electric motors on a bike frame, and pull my small trailer with batteries inside. As an experiment mind you.... guess i'm headed to a junk yard for a project.

I don't think a junk yard will have the right type of batteries though, might have to beg or borrow.

Title: Re: What is the smallest 12v alternator you have s
Post by Serowbot on 12/05/13 at 22:09:09

Is that going on the bike?... :-?...

I think I'm missing something...

Title: Re: What is the smallest 12v alternator you have s
Post by old_rider on 12/05/13 at 22:37:21

Nope.....just an extra alt. to see about extra power. It just irks me that a bike could produce such low power.

Kinda like the old computers verses todays, or the older cars vrs todays, or older aircraft vrs todays. Everything needs more power dangit!

But I would really like to put together a motorcycle trike with electric motors and try using fan bladed alternators or wind power generators to keep the batteries charging while moving, or if not charged up, just adding a few extra miles to the trip meter!

I just KNOW it can be done! my problem is once something bugs me this much I spend way too much time and money on it.... thing is, all I have now is time (thanks to the cancer doc!) since i'm in recovery mode and i'm going nutz sitting around washing clothes and dishes...LOL

Title: Re: What is the smallest 12v alternator you have s
Post by gizzo on 12/05/13 at 22:40:18

I've seen a couple of Katanas that have had the end of the crankcase sliced off (I think to increase ground clearance) and a little alternator from a 3 cylinder Daihatsu Charade hanging behind the engine being driven by the chain. Dunno if that's what you're thinking of. A trickle charger would be simpler.

Title: Re: What is the smallest 12v alternator you have s
Post by old_rider on 12/05/13 at 22:41:30

3D2B3C21392C213A4E0 wrote:

Kinda like that solar charging idea, could mount it outside and run a wire into the garage and make a central plug in point and just trickle charge all of the bikes at once!

Title: Re: What is the smallest 12v alternator you have s
Post by old_rider on 12/05/13 at 22:44:42

6E747072734D7C6F696F74797A781D0 wrote:

Yeah, seen one at the camp area up on the dragon, guy had it plugged into his battery via a trickle cord.

But a trickle charger would be better, your right... I think solar one.
Don't know if I would trust it for her bike at work though, unless I could somehow make a bracket for it so no one could steal it.

Maybe mount it on top her travel bag, i'll look into it more in depth.

Title: Re: What is the smallest 12v alternator you have s
Post by old_rider on 12/06/13 at 00:02:55

Okay call me nutz....

But here is a starting point, the drive train, already made....
at 110 hp per wheel, i'd only need one on a trike, unless the batteries to run it would weigh a ton, then I would need two....

http://www.proteanelectric.com/en/overview/

Lets see, two times 81kW....hmmmm, quite a few batteries, yup, gonna need my fan charging system and maybe a small generator too! :P

Or I could ask the Protean guys to make a smaller version..... would I dare ask? all they could say is NO ya crazy ol' coot! leave us alone! :o

Title: Re: What is the smallest 12v alternator you have s
Post by MMRanch on 12/06/13 at 08:16:52

Hay OldRider

I had the same problem when I used to pick-up my youngen from school everday. Its a 5 mile trip and the battery would drain more from starting than got put back on the dailly ride. .... SO ...

I put a option on the headlight. (togle swithch)

use the low beem power to fire the togle (SPDT). one side lights up a LED front light. the other just goes back to the low beem.

I found a headlight (5.5 ") with a small blub mounted in the bottom and the regular blub in the middle. "Doin't remember where exaclty but it was on line somewhere ? ... I've still got at least one of them if your interested . :)

Title: Re: What is the smallest 12v alternator you have s
Post by GridMonkey on 12/06/13 at 08:29:44

http://hpevs.com/ great place for some electric motors/gadgetry/ect. they sell conversion motors that hook right up to a car transmission.

Would be a good place to start for a drive train. They have regen braking to try to put some power back into the batteries, of cource you can never having a charge rate higher than the useage rate.

You could drive round with a vertical wind turbine on the trunk to assist but i don't think any kind of alternator with fan blades will get you any assistance in keeping battery banks full.

If you prove me wrong, sign me up as a prototype tester however :)

Title: Re: What is the smallest 12v alternator you have s
Post by Dave on 12/06/13 at 09:39:54

7370786E7578796E1C0 wrote:

I know that engineers will tell you the drag coefficient would be nullifying the aerodynamics causing a waste of energy, but I know in my backyard building heart I could make it produce more than drag would take away, thus enhancing or producing more mileage from an electric vehicle.
:) ::)

Hey....guess what.....I "am" an engineer....and I am going to tell you that you can't get something for nothin". If you stick something out in the wind while you are riding.....it is going to take more power to run it than it will generate. It has to, the aerodyanic drag an efficiency loss in the blades, the drag of the housing and mounts, the friction the in bearings, the energy lost to heat and resistance in the wires.....it all adds up to take power away. There are some wind driven alternators built for vintage aircraft - but they use them as the engines don't have anyway to connect an engine driven generator/alternator.....not because they are efficient or make electricity for free.

If you have a wind mill attached to the ground and let the natural wind power it.....then you are getting something for nothing. But you cannot mount that same wind mill on your bike or car and drive down the road at 60mph and get anything for free.

Title: Re: What is the smallest 12v alternator you have s
Post by Serowbot on 12/06/13 at 09:44:10

142F2235242833352E262B34470 wrote:

But you cannot mount that same wind mill on your bike or car and drive down the road at 60mph and get anything for free.

Oh, yeah?... ;D...
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XKwwpyxRuNs/SuHuiQsSxFI/AAAAAAAAAbo/dIkqg6kHC84/s400/propellerbeanie.jpg

Title: Re: What is the smallest 12v alternator you have s
Post by old_rider on 12/06/13 at 11:34:59

But extending the trip using lets say ducted air turbine motors? even spinning at slow speeds they produce some useable voltage. Well anywho...i'm ready to try spearmentin' with somethin' so..... maybe I can take an already runnin' lectric' type vehicle and see about adding the small car alternator with say a 10" fan for starters. Not sure how fast the alternator will spin at say 20mph, but like I said, i'm a gonna spearment and see.
First I gotta find a smallish lectric' vehicle cheap, I had some small scooters for the boy when he was about 12 years old. 24v system on them and they went like 17mph.

LOL, I just thought of something else.... say using the wheels as a driver for an air compressor ( I know more drag) and nozzle feed the air pressure to assist in spinning a small fan at higher revs?

Title: Re: What is the smallest 12v alternator you have s
Post by verslagen1 on 12/06/13 at 11:50:54

any thought to having a prop spinning near you?

why not get one of those wheel hubs with an electric motor and use regenerative braking? low power/drag for up keep, full power for braking.

Title: Re: What is the smallest 12v alternator you have s
Post by old_rider on 12/06/13 at 12:02:15

2C3F2829363B3D3F346B5A0 wrote:

any thought to having a prop spinning near you?

why not get one of those wheel hubs with an electric motor and use regenerative braking? low power/drag for up keep, full power for braking.

I have found one....

http://www.proteanelectric.com/en/specifications/

So I emailed them about a smaller version about half the horsepower, who needs 100hp? I could go with 45hp, would be smaller less power consumption and these things have a tube with a flat plate mount (swing arm?)
Wouldn't need a tranny, engine, sprockets ect...... just mount the wheel to a swing arm and build forward thinking of course the power needed to run it for say 200 miles, don't need a monster top speed of 110mph.
You could use the battery pack as a balance point to make it "feel" like a "real" motorcycle.

Title: Re: What is the smallest 12v alternator you have s
Post by verslagen1 on 12/06/13 at 12:11:18

You're talking about a full eveehicle
I'm talking about keeping stock gas powered rear end
and replacing front with ebrake for recharging bat.

Title: Re: What is the smallest 12v alternator you have s
Post by old_rider on 12/06/13 at 12:15:06

475443425D5056545F00310 wrote:

You're talking about a full eveehicle
I'm talking about keeping stock gas powered rear end
and replacing front with ebrake for recharging bat.

ahhh... I see, my head is like spinnin' with ideas at the moment. I really need to get me a project going or i'm gonna fry some brain cells.

Title: Re: What is the smallest 12v alternator you have s
Post by Dave on 12/06/13 at 12:18:38

797A72647F727364160 wrote:

But extending the trip using lets say ducted air turbine motors? even spinning at slow speeds they produce some useable voltage.

No.....It is not going to happen....ever.

Whatever you hang in the airstream of the moving vehicle is going to take away more energy than it can produce. To gain that little bit of extra energy from the "add on" device.....you are going to have to use more energy to power the air through it than you will get back. Doesn't matter if it is a fan in the air stream, a generator rubbing on the tire or belt.....anything that makes energy has to get more energy supplied to it. The only exception to this in a moving vehicle is regenerative braking.....where instead of scrubbing off speed by using friction and heat you can use the electric motor as a generator to use up the extra speed and convert it to power to be returned to the batteries.....and all the well designed electric and hybrid vehicles already do this.

Title: Re: What is the smallest 12v alternator you have s
Post by Steve H on 12/06/13 at 15:49:47

The Betz limit is something around 63%. This is the most power you can extract from the wind with a perfect windmill. Nobody has ever achieved that limit yet. Some have gotten into the 50's.

So, you're already down to getting 63% of the power it takes to push it through the wind. Then, what's the efficiency of the alternator? (more losses) What's the resistance of the wiring/control system? (more losses as heat)

After all is said and done, if you get 30% of the power input out as electricity, you are doing well.

Title: Re: What is the smallest 12v alternator you have s
Post by Serowbot on 12/06/13 at 17:51:14

I got it... Just put a giant windshield on the bike...
The air resistence will slow your wife down, and require a lower gear... that will spin higher rpm's and generate more charge for a longer time to charge the battery...
Ta da!.... ;D...

Title: Re: What is the smallest 12v alternator you have s
Post by GridMonkey on 12/07/13 at 00:14:12

OR just chuck loads of money at this http://uncrate.com/stuff/lito-sora-electric-motorcycle/ :) or any of these http://uncrate.com/search/electric+motorcycle/
though some of those dont look too bad.

Title: Re: What is the smallest 12v alternator you have s
Post by old_rider on 12/07/13 at 03:03:57

Yup been lookin' into the electric ones, the cheapest are the silly sumo looking ones that last 50 miles and they are priced at 20k

The most promising one is the Mission R, 165mph top speed, 140 mile range and can charge in 1 hour to 95%. but the long distance one sells for 40k.

I hit youtube for a look see at self made ones and there is a fella making trikes that get about 160 miles on, but he doesn't state how fast he can recharge.

I am all about driving a couple hours and gasin' up and taking a 20 min break and hopping back on and hitting the road...rinse repeat and you can to 800 miles in a day.
With the mission R you might be able to go 800 miles but it would take 10 or 11 hours a day to do it because you would have to stop every 130 miles (2.4 hours) and recharge for an hour. But the price does not fit the bill, there is no way you can save enough money on gas to even think 40k would ever be made back it would take 10 years and by then you would have to buy a new battery pack (5-6k) and have your motor re-brushed.
I went from trying to keep a battery charged or from dying because of short trips to " ya know, i'd like to build an electric 3 wheeler that is affordable and gets good mileage". But i'd like to build a two wheeled one also...guess i'm going to have to learn how to build battery packs.