SuzukiSavage.com /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Here's a new one... /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1383340237 Message started by J-Snap on 11/01/13 at 14:10:37

Title: Here's a new one... Post by J-Snap on 11/01/13 at 14:10:37 I can't see how someone could have ever done the stupendously stupid thing I've just done. Oil change time. For the life of me I can't figure out why I did this given the number of oil changes I've done on my and my wife's Savages, but just now I turned the oil plug backwards. It had been getting more stuck the last few times I've changed it so I didn't think anything of applying a little leverage to get it started. And then I realized my error when oil started leaking before the plug bolt was out. It never does that. I started turning it the other way and the plug bolt came out fine. Only after I let the oil drain out did I get to survey the damage: Looks like I cracked the case. So, that's the season for me. Now I get to spend the winter trying to fix this. What do you guys think I'm looking at here? Replacing the whole crank case? If the crack is small can I use some kind of sealant or is that gonna come back to bite me? I'll post pics in a little while. Can't tell you how stupid I feel right now though.

Title: Re: Here's a new one... Post by Serowbot on 11/01/13 at 15:01:01 I guess you could try JBWeld or some other sealant... but, will you trust it?... Depends how old that motor is, and how far you like to ride... :-?... Sorry it happened... We've had those moments... :'(...

Title: Re: Here's a new one... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/01/13 at 15:54:20 How long is the crack? Is it on just one side? One thing is certain, youre gonna need that motor on the bench to either fix it or have it welded. IF you decide youre willing to go with JB weld, then youve got to find the end of the crack & drill a small hole to give the crack a radius to relieve stress & stop the crack from growing, If you go that way, then before you run a bit in, locate a brass rod just 1/2 a thousandths bigger, run some grooves in it going around, run the plug in to open the crack, press the JB weld into the crack ( that has been Thoroughly cleaned by squirting Berrymans thru it, juice up the brass rod, gently, OHH gently, tap it in,, Wait,, DRY Run,, Tap that rod in,, pull the plug & make sure the crack closes.. If not, stick the rod in a drill & spin it in sand paper,, play with it till ya get it fitting snug but not holding the crack open, Then apply the JB weld. Id expect that to work, but the cost of having it welded up coupled with knowing its NOt a JB weld repair wopuld likely be the option Id choose,, Unless I just didnt have the $$$.. I think JB would do it,,Especially if you have a plave you could fashion a plate to go across the crack & JB that on,, How Thick is the case at that point guys? Its down low,, so maybe they left it kinda heavy, to keep stuff from bustin it,, Someone had a counterweight go thru some years ago,, Ill bet that allowed for a visual on case thickness,,

Title: Re: Here's a new one... Post by raydawg on 11/01/13 at 16:05:27 Well if the case is good and its been removed, why not take it to a machine shop and up-size the hole? We do this on commercial airplanes all the time when the original dimension is muffed up while drilling......not me of course  ;D

Title: Re: Here's a new one... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/01/13 at 16:13:29 Depends on the length of the crack & whether or not the case is heavy enough at a distance from the hole, It may taper from the depth of the threaded hole to a much thinner shell pretty close to the plug.. but thats a good idea if it fits the needed parameters

Title: Re: Here's a new one... Post by verslagen1 on 11/01/13 at 16:19:21 I don't think I can comprehend what you've done. I'd get it welded and retapped.   I might consider rtv or jb weld if it weren't  leaking when fully threaded in.

Title: Re: Here's a new one... Post by J-Snap on 11/01/13 at 19:06:42 Here's an imgur gallery of the best photos I could get of the crack. It doesn't look good... http://imgur.com/a/b5OSq#0

Title: Re: Here's a new one... Post by J-Snap on 11/01/13 at 19:10:50 Also, thanks for the responses so far. Glad nobody has said "throw it out" yet. That's a relief. I have my PPL, so I understand the concept of drilling to stop a stress crack (the 172R I trained in had quite a few drilled holes to stop cracks from spreading). I don't think I'd go the JB weld route. I'm much more of a "spend the money to get it done right" kind of guy. If I'm taking it out to do the work, I may as well take it to someone who can do it right. Heck, while it's out I might as well pull the head and fix my head plug leak.

Title: Re: Here's a new one... Post by Oldfeller on 11/01/13 at 19:37:47 Professional mechanics would say you are in the market for a TIG weld up job.    A good welder man can grind a groove where the crack is and weld it up until it is positive to the old case contours, giving (depending on the weld rod he picks) a stronger case than you had before.   Then he will drill and tap it for a slightly larger bolt.   Warning:  This will be expensive, but it will be full strength durable fix. A replacement used motor costs $550 (a little more or less depending on the season of the year).   You could pay just about that much to get it TIG welded up and re-machined to be "as good as".. Taking the engine all the way apart isn't an option, not unless you want to devote a great deal of time doing (and redoing) the engine.  Your costs on a full engine tear down can be as much as a used engine. Heating stuff up a whole lot in welding can cause damage to the sealant between the case halves, which is a bad thing that will make you have to do a full engine tear down to fix it. ===================== You might consider this option:   Take the engine off. drain out all the oil.   Spray the crack very clean with Brake Parts Cleaner and heat it with a torch lightly just until the cleaner bubbles out of the crack and clean it again with Brake Parts Cleaner and heat it and clean it  until NOTHING darl is coming up out of the crack. Then solder the crack closed with some of the propane torch AlumniRod stuff you can buy at Sears or any good aluminum solder material you can buy at the same place.   Your flux has to get the solder to wick down inside the crack all the way or this repair is worthless ....   This level of wicking will fill the threads up too. Then drill/tap to the same thread, file the mouth flat with a fine file and install an "O" ring or an "X" ring on the bolt head and lightly finger tighten it to seal the oil up inside.   You must use a neoprene or silicone rubber ring to make the seal as NO HEAVY PRESSURE can ever be put on those threads again or they will jack the crack open on you again. Then check it every week for oil leakage until you get confidence in the fix being long lasting and "oil change proof". Sorry, but you bit a big one with this particular little boo boo.   Fixing it isn't going to be simple or easy. ============================= The stock bolt is very long -- the threaded boss might be longer yet.   Get a tap that big and see how far you can tap the existing cracked hole. See if you can get a quarter inch long section of good uncracked boss, then clean it good and use the hardening SPARK PLUG AND STUD REPAIR lock tite product to fill up the crack.   You will not be able to use the bolt to install the locktite as per the stud instructions.  PAY ATTENTION -- NO BOLT.   You will push the Locktite paste into the crack with a piece of wood or a small flat blade screw driver, pushing it all the way deep into the crack.     Wipe off the excess paste until you can see threads again, you will need those threads to start your tap when you cut the new threads. LET THE LOCKTITE HARDEN COMPLETELY. Now re-tap the hole cleanly and see if it will support a tight fitted on the bolt rubber "O" or "X" ring at practically no tightening stress without leaking oil on you. The lock tite method requires no heating which could destroy the case sealant between the cases and result in an engine tear down for oil leakage.   That is the only advantage to this method.

Title: Re: Here's a new one... Post by J-Snap on 11/01/13 at 19:48:13 Thanks Oldfeller. I'm extremely lucky I have a retired auto mechanic for a father-in-law. Pretty sure he's got connections that can make a tig welding job a little less painful. Otherwise He's set up with an oxy acetylene rig so he might insist on working on it himself after he takes a look at it—which he will insist upon because if he isn't helping someone he isn't happy. Usually I'm frustrated by that. I like to work things out for myself. But in this case I think I may be happy to admit defeat and let him baby me a little.  ;)

Title: Re: Here's a new one... Post by J-Snap on 11/01/13 at 19:52:07 Another (possibly dumb) question: it appears like the threads inside the hole are part of a sleeve of some kind. Would it be possible to replace this sleeve or am I seeing this incorrectly?

Title: Re: Here's a new one... Post by Oldfeller on 11/01/13 at 20:03:02 http://i.imgur.com/5YseFsT.jpg Your aluminum boss is cracked all the way across on both sides.   There is no insert.   What you think is an insert is a machined spot face done at the same time the hole was drilled, then tapped into the aluminum boss.

Title: Re: Here's a new one... Post by J-Snap on 11/01/13 at 20:21:30 Thanks for your continued explanations. I like the sound of the locktite method—for exactly the reason you've highlighted. I think I get what you're saying but I'm a bit confused about tapping the cracked hole. What am I doing with that step? Everything from there on in makes sense, but let me parrot it back to make sure I've got it: Clean it exhaustively until it's perfect. Then fill the cracks and threads with locktite and fit it with a 17mm bolt (but not my plug) to fill the hole and then drill it and tap it again, then fit my plug with a silicone x-ring and gingerly tighten the plug from now on (avoiding any pressure that could crack it open again).

Title: Re: Here's a new one... Post by Serowbot on 11/01/13 at 22:47:02 I've often wondered why they don't have drain cocks for oil, like they have for radiators... (or used to, anyway)... Just a hand turn faucet type dealy ... (I mean we change oil, more often than radiator fluid)... :-?...

Title: Re: Here's a new one... Post by Burt on 11/02/13 at 06:38:42 The "oil drain valve" idea is a great one. I used to have an MG, and there was an aftermarket, screw-in little spigot available that seemed to sell well...Someone with appropriate skills and equipment should create and market one for our singles (they were about $20, as I recall).

Title: Re: Here's a new one... Post by Dave on 11/02/13 at 06:45:44 J-Snap: This is obviously too late for you......but for everyone else looking at this thread.....the oil drain plug is not supposed to be tight - it is supposed to be "snug".  The torque value is 8 - 13 foot/lbs....which is absolutely low for a bolt that size.  The goal is to keep oil from coming out and the bolt only need to be snug.....one hand and a little tug once the bolt seats....not both hands and a foot wedged against the frame for leverage tight! There are companies that make oil drain valves.  I am not sure we have room to install one on the Savage......the lever might not allow clearance to screw it into place: http://www.qwikvalve.com/?utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=search-oil-drain-valve I have this one on my compact tractor, as it allows me to put a hose on the end and drain the oil into a container......so I can drain the oil without having to remove the mid mount mower.  J-Snap might be able to JB Weld one of these in place. http://www.nospillsystems.com/

Title: Re: Here's a new one... Post by WD on 11/02/13 at 09:14:14 Pull it have it TIG welded, a crack like that, anything else is a waste of time and money. I had over 100 machine shop hours into a 1970 (first year alternator engine cases) Shovelhead, the only one I have ever seen leak free with factory gaskets... Do it once, do it right. If you actually like the bike, the money/time outlay is moot.

Title: Re: Here's a new one... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/02/13 at 09:26:33 After seeing the pic,, WD is correct.. Theres no way Id try JB weld on that.. I had no idea what you were looking at.. I was expecting about a 1/4" crack heading out from the edge of the drain hole.. UHHH, NO,, Im curious as to what kind of effort went into doing that,,How hard were you cranking on the bolt that came out so easily before the oil dripped out? Surely the effort to remove the plug was nothing like the effort required to screw it in,,

Title: Re: Here's a new one... Post by J-Snap on 11/02/13 at 13:21:53 Yeah I was wrenching it pretty hard and leveraging the wrench at times with another spanner. In the past I've had to give it a few taps with a mallet to get it started (but now that I've read the post by Dave, I realize I shouldn't have been putting it on so tight). As I lay in bed last night trying to fall asleep I kept playing through the disaster, and I just can't imagine what was going through my mind that I thought I needed that kind of torque to get it off. *shakes head* Even as I was doing it I kept thinking: "This is wrong—it's never been this hard to get it off".

Title: Re: Here's a new one... Post by LANCER on 11/02/13 at 16:05:56 WWWOOOWWWW .... a very expensive lesson dude. Sorry man.

Title: Re: Here's a new one... Post by Oldfeller on 11/02/13 at 18:37:52 Where did the bolt come from?   I didn't say locktite a bolt in place and drill it out.  Go back and read my post.   I said DO NOT PUT A BOLT IN IT IF YOU TRY FOLLOWING THE STUD INSTRUCTIONS.   No bolt.  A hole with bare threads that you are going to partially fill up with loctite repair compound as you work the stuff down into the cracks -- then you tap it back out with the appropriate tap once it is fully hard. Seriously, you are in way over your head, let your relative help you out some because without somebody with some prior skills to be there to lend you aid you are going to do yet more damage in trying to fix it.

Title: Re: Here's a new one... Post by J-Snap on 11/03/13 at 09:20:11 Oldfeller, I've re-read your instructions (which you keep kindly editing—thank you for that) and they now make more sense to me. The first or second edit that I read it wasn't exactly clear to me what you were saying. It sounded to me like you were suggesting to fill the crack and the hole for some reason. This is precisely why I asked for confirmation of what I was reading. I am not planning on doing the work on my own. I am fully aware that I'm in way over my head, but thank you for emphasizing that fact. I fully intend to use every resource around me. However, it's important for me to fully understand the process and the plan. I need to know what the wise members of this forum are saying inside-out and backwards. I want to know as much as possible about the problem and how to fix it because the people around me are knowledgable about machining and repairs in general, but they have little knowledge about this bike in particular and YOU are not going to be here to tell my father in law or my friend in the machine shop not to do something if it's incorrect or could do more damage. Once again, thank you for your help thus far. It's been absolutely invaluable to me.

Title: Re: Here's a new one... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/03/13 at 09:39:21 A machinist would likely have a better handle on what to do/not do than you or a family member unless your family member is a well experienced kinda guy,,Id expect a machinist to have seen damage along the lines of what youve got, Its certainly nothing I would have an experience in life that would give me anything to draw on to help me answer that in a cost effective, dependable, safe manner. Its a painful lesson & Im sorry to see anyone learn one like that, BUT,, Pay attention to that "Little Voice". YOur gut knows more than yer brain some times,,

Title: Re: Here's a new one... Post by J-Snap on 11/03/13 at 10:39:27 Justin, yeah I'll certainly be giving the "little voice" a megaphone with this experience. I only met the machinist this summer, but he's the nicest darn guy. He's coming over thursday to take a look at it. My father in law is a 'retired' mechanic of 45+ years. His idea of retirement is working in a field full of ancient tractors that he restores to running condition so the owner can sell them to developing countries. The man refuses to stop. Between the two of them I think I'm in pretty good hands. But like I say, they're not experienced with the LS650 itself. The combined knowledge of this forum is something I'm relying on as well. I'll keep updating and asking questions as this situation unfolds. You guys are the best. This thread alone has convinced me to set aside a donation from my next paycheque.

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