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Message started by pgambr on 10/26/13 at 17:37:45

Title: Jap big 4
Post by pgambr on 10/26/13 at 17:37:45

Out of the jap big 4 who do you think makes the best bikes? More over, which historically have performed the best, most reliable, most problems, so on so fourth. This should be a fairly interesting thread.

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by LANCER on 10/26/13 at 17:46:42

1966 Suzuki 150 2-stoke twin: could not kill it
!978 Yamaha SR500: good bike, no problems
So far I've had 4 LS650's with just 1 real hassle, and that was on my original '96, which developed electrical issues but since it had lived outside most of its life I'm not surprised that after 10 years or so that this would happen.

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by Serowbot on 10/26/13 at 17:51:13

Honda has the rep for anal retentive reliability,... if you like that sorta' thing... but, that also gives their bikes the least character or personality...

Not that they haven't dropped a few clangers... :-?...
... but,.. all Jap bikes are reliable...

None have the fit and finish of American, English, German, Italian bikes...

Same with cars... (America get's a pass with car fit and finish)... ;D...

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by engineer on 10/26/13 at 18:04:49

Interesting question. I haven't owned a lot of Jap bikes, most of mine were Euro bikes because most of my riding was done 50 years ago before Jap bikes were available where I lived. Since then I have owned only two makes of Jap bikes, Suzuki and Honda. But people tell me that the top Jap bike in terms of build quality and overall engineering is Honda, followed by Yamaha and then Suzuki and Kawasaki.

But I think they are all very good with some variation between specific models from each manufacturer. I am convinced that if you want a good reliable bike at a reasonable cost then any of the four Japanese companies is the way to go.

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by ZAR on 10/26/13 at 20:46:57

Historically overall I think Honda has produced more dependable bikes,at least into the mid to later 1980's. The one exception would be the Yamaha XS650. That would be my #1 Jap bike of all time,followed very closely by the LS650.

Beyond that time frame they all just jumble together for me. All the Jap bikes in the last 20 years seem to fall into either the crotch-rocket or "wanna be a Hurley" class. Nothing really stands out from the Japanese builders anymore. But then you have to understand that I'm really a Triumph/BSA/Norton kind of guy anyway!

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by MMRanch on 10/26/13 at 21:56:19

I had a XS650 Yahama (71) modle in Gold color. It was a great bike ! :)-Till the rotor burned out. :( The Sportster reminds me a lot of it, with the way it handles. Yahama-35mpg ---- Sportster-53mpg. ;)

The Yahama RD serries were good , I had the 250 version and loved it.

The S-40 is my second LS650 , and except for the valve clatter I like it a lot.

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by WD on 10/26/13 at 22:11:39

You sure you want to know? I've owned in excess of 100 street legal bikes... roughly 15% were metric, the rest were American or European.

Overall best is easy, Honda CB/CL. They can sit around for 20 years, and you add gas, change the oil and battery and will be running in a few kicks 90% of the time.

Can't wait to have another one? Again, very easy, 800 or 1500 Vulcan, any style. They are THE best handling cruisers ever made, especially the 805cc VN800A. The KZ line, twins or fours, were phenomenal.

Yamaha has only ever made a couple decent bikes... XS650 and its variants.

Dead last in every category... Suzuki. Poor QC, atrocious fit and finish, electrical systems that make Lucas parts look good, the worst seats in the history of motorcycling... The factory has turned out some excellent parts over the decades, no question at all on that. But with the exception of the full dress C50T, they are rather uninspired and underwhelming machines.

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by Midnightrider on 10/26/13 at 22:18:20

If you want a bike to ride 200,000 miles with normal maintenance and a few stators buy a Honda. Bot's right, not much personality. Thats why most ol geezers ride Gold Wings. Will go more miles than your car but its about like riding in one. My all time favorites are new Triumphs but when it comes to the big 4, get whatever you want. Unless you're a daily long distance commuter the bike will probably outlast you, especialy the water cooled ones. The Savage is a 30 year old motorcycle if you buy a new one, 30 year old design,30 year old quality. It has more personality than George Carlin on crystal meth. Maybe thats why they're still building them.

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by Midnightrider on 10/26/13 at 22:48:36

WD, Suzuki spent their money at the race track. They dont care about ol geezers like us. Back in the mid 90's when Suzuki came out with their new improved 750 Crotch Rocket that bike was ready to win at the racetrack with just a tire and jet and exhaust change. It was years ahead of anybody, put a whuppin on Ducati. Then they went to work on the 600 and just about left Honda setting a few years. You remember when just about every crotchrocket you seen was White and Blue. The 1100 ruled the dragstrips and are still being run today. I guess theres a few die hard Suzuki fans that want a cruiser but you can tell the thought, time , and attention is not being paid to them. Here in the US their number one customers are young black males and thats who they cater to.

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by PerrydaSavage on 10/27/13 at 02:38:58

I'd put the Japanese Big 4 in this order as far as overall reliabilty goes (but really, what do I know?) ... innovation and engineering wise? Probably the same order ... though YamKawaZuki are probably interchangeable as far as that goes ...

Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki

Yamahog owners I've met seem to be pretty defensive of their chosen brand moreso than owners of the other 3 marques ...

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by old_rider on 10/27/13 at 06:24:04

Like most folks I've owned at few of each brand of bikes and each has their own "quirks". The newer bikes today are so "sophisticated" electronically that they hardly fail unless you are "modding" them and making them do something more than they are designed to do.

My stock Honda 1300R VTX was probably the most bulletproof for a modern cruiser and i'm up in the air about which of the smaller ones I would favor... I owned a Yamaha WR250X supermoto, a super fun little bike, but this little Kawasaki 300 Ninja is making me think that its not really the Companies, but the designs that make the bikes what they are.

I don't know, but the fuel injected, water cooled, low maintenance of todays bikes are what make me want to keep updating each model. Of course with all the added stuff that can fail (fuel pumps, injectors, ecu's) can make a new owner go nutz because of the complicity of the systems.

I'm thinking KISS (keep it simple stupid) would be the best for any engineering team to go by, but with that comes the maintenance issues, which is why I like the savage, it is simple in design, but not maintenance free.

I've put 5,000 miles on my new little kawi, but it isn't due a major maintenance check until 8,000, and i'm hearing from most owners that its just a valve clearance check and most don't need adjusting.

So maybe todays bikes might be better engineered, but not better overall maintenance wise for the owners, unless you are a certified motorcycle mechanic that understands electronic fuel injection and can "retune" a bike that has an ECU failure.

But my best ever rock-solid bike? It wasn't a "big four", It was my Briggs and ScrapIron Sears minibike I had when I was young!! Even I could work on it at 10 years old!!

http://i1047.photobucket.com/albums/b471/Orphistle/briggsandstrattonmini.jpg

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by MMRanch on 10/27/13 at 11:36:55

Hay OldRider ...

That's a nice looking bike ! ;D

No Really ... I've been looking at the ones "Tractor Supply" sells and thinking "That thing looks like a lot of fun".

8-)

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by Steve H on 10/27/13 at 19:37:09

I had one very similar when I wsa a kid. Was loads of fun...Fork tubes were weak. Broke the forks pretty quick jumping over a little hill. Welded a bicycle neck on it and used bicycle forks. Never another problem.

They are a blast. ;D

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by HAPPYDAN on 10/27/13 at 21:45:14

Hey Zar - We think alike. My favorite was the early '70s Honda CB450. Uncle Army called me up in 73, and I was out of riding until 2006, when I wanted to get back to riding. I was dismayed that there were only crotch-rockets, HD Wannabees, and Dirt Devils. I would like to see Honda bring it back, but if it were built to the same quality as before, the cost would kill it. So I'm reasonably happy with my 2012 S40.

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by WD on 10/28/13 at 03:04:41

I've got my eye on a gorgeous custom 2006 VN800 Drifter that is listed for $4K... low miles and ready to go as is once the XM radio is deleted. I've run out of time to get the Savage back in service, 45 mile each way commute starts today. I need a couple more months worth of paychecks to get the custom cables, front shoes relined, a proper windshield (small police type tombstone)... and still need to test the stator, reg/rec, and spark box. I could get it all in one check, if I skipped the bills, but...

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by PerrydaSavage on 10/28/13 at 08:10:34

Would love to own an 800 Drifter! Unique ... and rare around these parts ... beautiful Bikes! 8-)

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by Badass94Cad on 10/28/13 at 17:34:15

0112560 wrote:

Can't wait to have another one? Again, very easy, 800 or 1500 Vulcan, any style. They are THE best handling cruisers ever made, especially the 805cc VN800A.

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by pgambr on 10/28/13 at 19:18:43

I had an 08 vulcan custom 900 cc. I did not like mine and got rid of it after 2k miles. Rode real smooth, handled great; but, would not go over 70 mph in 4th. 5th would wind out real slow. I think it weighed 610 lbs. That is a lot more weight for 250 more cc. It was to heavy for the town and to slow for the interstate.

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by WD on 10/29/13 at 03:29:15

0427222735357F72052722460 wrote:

[quote author=0112560 link=1382834265/0#6 date=1382850699]
Can't wait to have another one? Again, very easy, 800 or 1500 Vulcan, any style. They are THE best handling cruisers ever made, especially the 805cc VN800A.

WD, I've seen you endorse the 800 and 1500 Vulcans on several occasions, but what about the 2006+ Vulcan 900? Do you not recommend them because they're fuel injected, more complicated? :-/

I only ask because a neighbor has a 2007 Vulcan 900 for sale... 8-)[/quote]

Basically the factory took the 800 engine, junked it up with chrome and fuel injection, added the less than stellar Scoot Works belt drive conversion... Stuffed the whole mess into a substandard chassis, gave it even uglier fenders than the 800B (Classic)... and jacked the weight and price up a good bit.

Weighs more, costs more, has less available power. Lousy bike from the word go.

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by PerrydaSavage on 10/29/13 at 08:18:06

Wow!! Did not know that the VN900 utilizes the Scootworks belt drive kit in place of the VN800's original chain?! Kinda wish that the VT750DCs had a belt drive instead of chain ...

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by WD on 10/30/13 at 01:29:59

They basically cloned the design, the front pulley is too small.

As soon as I have a different main bike, my Savage is getting a stretched weld on rigid conversion and a chain drive. At around 20K total miles, the belt is at roughly 3/4 of its tension travel. Replacement belts are worth more than the bike (as are the spark box, the starter, and a few other pieces). At least the last time I bothered looking those parts up...

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by Arnold on 10/30/13 at 06:34:33

New belt $200, used belt $100.

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by PerrydaSavage on 10/30/13 at 13:42:50

I've heard that abot the Scootworks belt-drive conversion kit for the VT750DC Spirit too WD ... front pulley being too small that is ... have read that because of this, the Scootworks belt for the chain-drive Honda Shadows is prone to pre-mature failure.

That said, it wouldn't have been too great an effort for the Japanese manufacturers of Cruisers that ended up as chain-drive, to have engineered a proper belt-drive ... I mean, if The Motor Company can do it, it ain't rocket science! ;) :) ;D

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by Dave on 10/30/13 at 13:57:04

This is just me thinking out loud.....so none of it is fact. But I suspect that the belts need quite a few teeth in contact and engaged with the counteshaft pulley to properly absorb the torque. And when you get that number of teeth on the countershaft pulley.....the rear pulley becomes really big to get the desired final drive ratio. I can remember seeing a Buell Blast and thinking how huge the rear pulley looked. A metal sprocket can have far less teeth engaged because they interlock with a metal chain and not a rubber belt with slightly flexible teeth. It sounds like Scootworks was trying to keep the rear pulley from getting too big....and they failed to provide enough teeth at the countershaft to make a durable setup.

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by pgambr on 10/30/13 at 15:44:50

Were the Buells any good? Also, I have heard the BMWs are pretty solid. Didn't they start off with bikes.

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by Midnightrider on 10/30/13 at 17:50:01

Buells were rough starting up but as most new companies they eventually built a decent bike, not great but good. BMW is probably the only big seller I have never owned. I liked the older air cooled ones better than the new ones.

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by WD on 10/30/13 at 17:56:14

The only real problem with BMW these days... is the fact that they are NOT BMWs. They are in fact Kymcos, built under license from BMW... If you want substandard BMW knock offs, buy a Ural. At least the sidehack model is available in 2wd.

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by pgambr on 10/30/13 at 18:21:55

No kidding, BMW made in Taiwan?

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by Badass94Cad on 10/30/13 at 19:04:45

Sounds like some good reasons to stay away from that 900. So they changed the chassis too? I like the older Vulcans, and there seem to be a lot around, but they also seem to hold their value around here. :o

I had looked at Urals a couple years ago. For a quick minute I thought it might be cool to have a Russian pre-war BMW knock-off. ;D Dare to be different! ::)

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by Midnightrider on 10/30/13 at 20:46:10

I remember in the 90's you could buy a Ural piston for $9

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by pgambr on 10/31/13 at 17:00:38

Did they offer the side cars then?

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by Midnightrider on 10/31/13 at 23:52:58

As far as I can remember they've always offered the sidecars. I remember reading a road test and the top speed with a sidecar model was around 60, definitely not an Interstate bike. They rust pretty bad but they sell em so I guess they have a place in this world. I know of a few guys who bought the sidecar and mounted it on another bike. Its probably the cheapest sidecar you can buy. We had a disabled guy here on the forum a few years back that did that.

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by Dave on 11/01/13 at 04:35:06

1B2E3939322F2A182A3D2A2C2E4B0 wrote:

Would love to own an 800 Drifter! Unique ... and rare around these parts ... beautiful Bikes! 8-)

Here you go......you just gotta do something to get it shipped.

http://cincinnati.craigslist.org/mcy/4154524609.html

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by ZAR on 11/01/13 at 16:46:34

714A4750414D56504B434E51220 wrote:

[quote author=1B2E3939322F2A182A3D2A2C2E4B0 link=1382834265/15#15 date=1382973034]Would love to own an 800 Drifter! Unique ... and rare around these parts ... beautiful Bikes! 8-)

Here you go......you just gotta do something to get it shipped.

http://cincinnati.craigslist.org/mcy/4154524609.html[/quote]

DAve sadly the craigslist link has been deleted.

About the drifter,there is a lady around Madison that has a 800 Drifter with sidecar dressed out to look like a HD WLA from WWII. It's a pretty trick scooter.

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by WD on 11/01/13 at 17:25:11

Drifters are more common than Savages where I live. You can't GIVE a Savage away in west TN. Nobody wants them. Mine has been under the big poplar tree in the front yard for months (no a/c in the garage), even the scrappers leave it alone. Could be the bullet holes I put in a few of their trucks... :-/

Title: Re: Jap big 4
Post by Dave on 11/02/13 at 04:13:19

6C7764360 wrote:

[quote author=714A4750414D56504B434E51220 link=1382834265/30#32 date=1383305706][quote author=1B2E3939322F2A182A3D2A2C2E4B0 link=1382834265/15#15 date=1382973034]Would love to own an 800 Drifter! Unique ... and rare around these parts ... beautiful Bikes! 8-)