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Message started by Oldfeller on 10/23/13 at 23:03:30

Title: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Oldfeller on 10/23/13 at 23:03:30

First, let me say that a vast majority of the folks who are reading this in Cafe likely shoot a gun on occasion.

Next, seems like most of us are suddenly on the "not rich" side of things ......
(and are getting more non-richer by the month, seems like).

Which brings up the high price of ammo, the lack of ammo and the art of reloading.

Some of you are going into the poor house paying a dollar a round just to shoot your toys a very limited amount. Some of you are just now paying over $500 to get your first toy then you find you "really can't afford to shoot it very much".

Or worse yet, "I can't find any ammo for my toy anywhere".

>:(

================

Historically, this situation has happened before in America. It was bad right after WWII and it got bad again during the Clinton years.

Now it has gotten REALLY REALLY bad just lately and after much discussion the real root cause has become clear and it has been documented by EVERY ammo maker on their home pages.

"The raw demand for firearms and ammunition has outstripped the total world wide supply of finished ammo of all calibers by a factor of at least 2x."

Yup, everybody wants some personal protection and they are buying and storing ammo at rates never before seen in America.

Supply is getting better now, but ammo prices had skyrocketed during the last shortage and by golly those prices don't seem to be going down for much as the supply slowly goes back up.

What can be done about it?

A simple answer is to save your brass and reload those cases again.

:-? :-? :-?

I can't do that, can I? Is it legal? Does it really save you any money? Does that reloaded stuff really work? Is it hard to do?

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Pine on 10/24/13 at 06:53:33

I can't tell if your making a statement, or asking about reloading.

I can't do that, can I?
Yes, you can do it, and its actually kinda fun. Especially if you are making a custom round (like I do). The process is very simple, the tools are not horribly expensive. it truly is a rural American heritage.

Is it legal?
It "might" vary by state, but as far as I know, its legal in every state. In fact ... while "cop killers" are illegal to buy and sell, they are legal to make.

Does it really save you any money?
I hang around a few re-loaders.. and the common joke is " it don't save you anything... it just lets you shoot more!" As with most things, you have to break the investment barrier. A $400 investment in press and sundry tools, will mean you have roll a BUNCH rounds before you break even. Some people ( like me) can make a second break. Once you start, ongoing components that must be bought are:
primers
powder
bullet

Because I shoot a .357, I can easily shoot pure lead bullets (as opposed to jacketd). Semi-autos often cant, or if they do, its a real mess to cleanup the lead fouling in the barrel. I have ( still) about 120 lbs of lead bars home-made from wheel weights ( free) which I then make into bullets. But even that is going to be short lived, and may be over. Lead is no longer used in wheel weights, or fishing weights.. so the "free" is all but gone.

Does that reloaded stuff really work?
Oh hell yes!

Is it hard to do?
Some people that get into it, enjoy it as much as they do shooting! Folks who load hunting rounds ( 30-06, 7mm, even 30-30) enjoy creating a custom load that can be "tuned" to their gun. By changing powders, primers, and bullets... they can make .. what cant be bought at any price.
IF you can find someone to show you how, no it is not hard. But like riding a bike... laziness and stupidity can cost you a hand or even your life.
Straight wall, low power rounds ( like mine) are very simple. I can crank 100 in an hour with a 20 minute set up. I use a progressive press, which, once its set up, makes the actual mechanical process nearly fool proof.

Some things seem counter intuitive. For instance... a heavier bullet requires LESS powder. Because the pressure that builds up to get the bullet moving builds up more before the bullet starts to move. Other fun facts: primers can be "hot" or "cold", powders burn at different speeds and rates. Lead bullets can create a liquified skin as they travel down the barrel.

Also know that rolling your own does not mean that components are available either. Primers and powders were VERY scarce a few years back. Getting the best price often means buying in bulk, so I often go in on a group buy and get enough until they do another group buy. That can mean 1 or even more years between buys. That becomes a re rather significant investment.
Lastly, it almost ALWAYS illegal to sell complete cartridges. And no one wants to pay what they are worth anyway. So fully expect that if you do get into re-loading, what you end up with ... only has value to YOU.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/24/13 at 07:04:57

They still use lead in batteries.. time & hassle factor in there.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Oldfeller on 10/24/13 at 07:36:18

Batteries are a poor source of lead (a casting unfriendly alloy of lead used is only half the battery mass, plus it is nasty/messy beyond belief once you crack one open). Batteries are now grids or sponges of lead and other grids/sponges of zinc, not solid nice plates as they once were. Plus, if you mistakenly try to melt even a piece of a zinc plate in with your lead plates, the result becomes zinc contaminated and uncastable.

Wheel weights are the best lead source (and most available as every Walmart in the land throws them away by the bucket full).

So, you see investment as being what stops people from starting reloading? I think it is lack of understanding how easy it is.

So, roll your clock back to when you started reloading. Think about starting out now, on the cheap. Think of being strapped, and still wanting to shoot your "XXX" some. That's where I started out, fresh out of college.

Two of the most common toys right now are a 9mm pistol or a .223 based rifle.

Anybody got one of those they can't readily feed (so as to shoot as much as they would like to shoot them)?

=================

Everything Pine says is true, from the viewpoint of an old reloader who kinda/sorta regrets all the stuff he bought over the years as his habit grew.

I can copy that thought too, but it applies more to us old codger reloaders who have had over 20 years to build up lots of "stuff". And yes, I have them durn white gallon jugs of powder laying about and commonly buy my bullets on special bulk lots of 1,000 or 500 to save money.

And yep, an old long term reloader can derive as much or more enjoyment out of making up the ammo for a new toy and modifying the toy itself to perform better compared to the actual shooting. Heck -- the shooting can get all anti-climactic compared to all the fun you get out of it before the shooting starts.

And I will add that the stuff never goes bad or evaporates. Stored in an AC/heated closet top inside your house reloading components have an extremely long shelf life.

============

So, what this conversation needs is the "interested beginning party" or the customer who wants the information.

And once you declare your actual need we can give you a conversation tailored to your situation.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by MMRanch on 10/24/13 at 07:39:26

Lastly, it almost ALWAYS illegal to sell complete cartridges. And no one wants to pay what they are worth anyway. So fully expect that if you do get into re-loading, what you end up with ... only has value to YOU.

In other words "The Goverement , hasn't figured out a way to TAKE a dollar from us doin't our own reloading finished products , so its currently ILLEAGAL ". :P

Up untill the time I got a 32ACP I had never bought a centerfire cartride , but have shot Thousands . Dad bought a single stage press when I was 14 and I allways just bought componets ! Now I've still got that single stage press and have a whole drawer full of molds and gas checks.

Loading shotgun shells cost as much as buying those 100ct. boxes but if you like to shoot "Turkey" or "Duck and Phesant" loads you can still save a bunch of money ! ;) It only cost a few pennys extra to go from "Field" loads to the hotter + Heavyer loads.

Most of my centerfire guns are not "AutoMatic's" due to the "Where did the brass go" factor. :)
Copy and paste:

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

Its a good starting place. :)

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Oldfeller on 10/24/13 at 08:07:55

Yup, BATF takes a real dim view of folks selling them reloads -- wants to see their production facility license and tax ID number they do.

Plus, lawyers of the spouse of the person that got damaged by a reload tend to be down right unfriendly to deal with.

It ain't a business, it is for personal use.

===================

So, some of you are actually buying toys in case it all goes to hell on us.

So, how did you plan to feed those toys in the event it does go all to hell on us?

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by oldNslow on 10/24/13 at 16:49:32

Quote:

So, how did you plan to feed those toys in the event it does go all to hell on us?

Well, for me reloading is a hobby, and a way to shoot much more than I'd be able to afford to do if I had to shoot only factory ammo.

But to your question. Primers are the achilles heel. Cases can be used over and over and are often free for the trouble of picking them up or rummaging through the trash at a lot of ranges. Or just have your buddies who don't reload save them for you. You can cast your own bullets. It's even possible to make your own black powder should it ever come to that.

But I'm not aware of any viable way for a hobbyist/survivialist to make primers.

A couple of years ago primers, for some reason never satisfactorily explained to me, became very hard to get. Sort of like the situation with 22LR ammo right now. They have become available again but the price took a pretty steep jump. Steeper than what inflation would account for. Dry up the supply of primers and we are pretty much out of buisness.

Unless of course you happen to have a flintlock. :)

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Oldfeller on 10/24/13 at 18:59:12

Primers are available, and cost $30 per thousand, or $3 per hundred, or 3 cents each.

A brick.or two of primers would last you one apocolypse, give or take a gaggle of gouls.

Powder is sold by gallon jugs. Get a couple jugs of "do anything" powders like IMR 4895 and WC 820 and you are fixed pretty good for many thousands of .223 reloads.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Midnightrider on 10/24/13 at 22:32:51

What kind of money can I expect to spend to get everything to get started. Right now, I'm intersted in 223, 308, 357, 380, 30-30 and 7.62 x 39. My guns are auto(built for social work) except for the 308 and 30-30. I know theres single presses and I guess you call them turret presses, rotates and does more than one bullet at a time. Back in the 70's I had a single press? I've seen tumblers. Are they necesary or are they for someone who wants pretty bullets? I have a good set of digital calipers. I dont have a good place to shoot my rifles (working on it) but if I could come out even reloading I'd be happy. Being disabled I have plenty of time. I'd like to have ammo to practice more and become a better shot. I've never missed a deer but I've never had a long shot, over 100 yards. Cant hunt anymore because i cant get em out of the woods and skin em but when I see these guys making 2 and 300 yard shots I get jealous and want to try it. Its just expensive with a centerfire.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by oldNslow on 10/25/13 at 04:54:52

Quote:

Primers are available, and cost $30 per thousand, or $3 per hundred, or 3 cents each.

A brick.or two of primers would last you one apocolypse, give or take a gaggle of gouls.

Two years ago they were $15.00 per thousand. I've still got a couple of bricks of small pistol primers with the price tags on the box.

How long they last depends on how much you shoot. I know competitive pistol shooters who shoot more than a thousand rounds a month. The only guns I shoot any where near that much are my shotguns because I shoot sporting clays or five-stand at least once a week - that's 2500 or 3000 shells a year. And I have friends that go through more than that.

209 shotgun primers are about 36-40 bucks a thousand right now. Even at the current price of powder and shot, the price of factory 12 ga. target loads has increased enough in the past couple of years that a lot of guys who didn't think it was worth the trouble to reload target loads are getting into it.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by 12Bravo on 10/25/13 at 06:32:58

I'm probably not saving much reloading pistols or rifle ammo but save a lot reloading .410 shells. I am only reloading .223 right now for rifles. I reload .380, 9mm, 9mm Largo, .40S&W and .45ACP using Hodgdon Universal for all of them with either Rainier or Berry's plated bullets. I have three presses; a Lee single stage, Lee turret press and a MEC press (.410)

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Pine on 10/25/13 at 06:41:35

Midnight;
I will have to let the others speak to the necked rounds/rifle rounds. These operate at much higher pressures and can add more steps.

I bought a factory rebuilt Dillion progressive press (each pull of the lever, outputs a round) for the 38/357. However, I have the cheapest Dillion (450) which costs a bunch to convert. I do own a 9mm and I could convert mine to do it. But if I could get another rebuild, I would do that instead. The price was about $300. I got both a digial and balance scale, boxes, bullet puller.. really we are not talking a lot of money. $500 max. But that is for one caliber ( in my case 2).

CL is often full of "Uncle Bills shop full of scary reload stuff" please come buy it for $50!!!!! I am not kidding. Old reloaders do die and when they do... the stuff goes for crazy cheap. Mostly because folks are scared of it! He's has a 4 lb can of GUNPOWDER!!! that could blow up the world!!!!

The most important part is the same as any hobby.. networking. Find folks to do group buys with, to help with finding sources of lead, make trades with... even cast your bullets for you! We have a guy down here that make ingot molds from angle iron!
I also like to find local businesses that support the hobby and then I try to support them. Yes, I have bought primer for a bit more locally... then if I bought on the internet.

Lastly.. reloading means I have an excuse to go to a gun show. I tell that wife I have go.."cause they may have primers on sale!". Then I go drool over the old shotguns...

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Oldfeller on 10/25/13 at 06:43:27

And say, like Midnight, someone has just jumped into .223 and 7.62x39 as well as 9mm pistol or some such.

And say this person just wanted to reload enough to keep up with his shooting, on a casual basis.

All of these calibers will load on a 3 hole Lee Turret press, which is the least costly of the rotating top semi-progressives at $67. This is the minimum press that can "do everything" for these calibers and at a speed that is so-so fair. Also, if you take the auto-rotate off the press and rotate it by hand, you can do all the common big rifle calibers as well. But, with .223 and 7.62x39 you can auto rotate if you want to.

There is a new bigger cast iron turret press from Lee that looks right good but costs a little more at $99. I'd pop for it if I were starting over as it can auto-rotate the big rifle cartridges and it looks REAL SOLID and much better built than the old aluminum 3 holer or 4 holer Lee stuff.

This is my recommended starting press for someone just getting into the game.

http://https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/product_images/006-90064/006-90064.jpg

=======================

Now we poll the old reloaders for their accumulated knowledge & opinions.

I used to worry about reloading speed and volume production, but now that it is an enjoyment on its own I load most things other than volume 9mm/40S&W on a single stage cast iron press.

Why? Because I like the feel of it, I like the big ram coming up perfectly aligned by tightly fitted massive cast iron casting and chromed steel ram. I like KNOWING that bullet was seated perfectly square to the case, with no variation whatsoever due to slop in the mechanical clearances in a moving plate system. Speed isn't a goal for me any more.

Pistol, I will use a progressive. I do not think the little amount of clearance slop in a movable plate press really matters much to a pistol round any as the looseness of a pistol round in its chamber is a greater variable than the press slop.

I also now like to deprime and resize and then chemically clean then lube and then reprime with a hand priming tool rather than do it all on a progressive press. Most errors on progressive presses are caused by the repriming step, so by feeding the process with primed brass the progressive only has to keep up with loading the cases, powder charging and bullet seating, which is all very much easy do on all my progressive presses. Since I started doing this, reloading stoppages and errors have been ZERO, something which was not true when I tried to resize and reprime on them busy busy busy progressive presses.

=======================

Something that is relatively new to me is citric acid and soap cleaning of brass. I will take a bulk batch of dirty fired brass and toss it into my big Dillon vibrator bowl with a teaspoon of citric acid powder (yep, the stuff that is used in canning) and some Dawn from the sink and enough water to cover the bottom of the bowl. The water should not exit the bowl even with the top open (and it will if you use too much water).

Some younger reloaders who have never bought a tumbler or a bowl just clean their brass by soaking for several hours to overnight. I've tried it and it works, but since I have the big vibrator bowl I will use it to cut down the cycle time to less than an hour.

So, instead of using walnut or corn cob media for hours and hours in a tumber to get brass clean, using citric acid and dishwashing soap for me the brass is clean inside an hour, plus all the crud inside the case and primer pockets is gone too. Chemical cleaning, neat stuff that.

No, it isn't as pretty as media and polish tumbled brass. Nothing beats media for shiny looking. But honestly, after six months all that shiny is gone anyway and it all looks pretty much the same by then.

Brass is then rinsed good in the sink to get rid of the citric acid and soap. Then I roll the brass in an old bath towel to get most of the water off of it. Brass still needs to be oven dried at 200 degrees to get rid of the interior water then it needs to be very lightly surface oiled for surface protection as the chemically cleaned surfaces are reactive to the air unless lightly oiled.

Rifle brass requires oiling anyway for size/deprime but this is just a surface protection for the pistol stuff as carbide dies don't care either way. Your arm and your progressive press will like the lubed pistol brass better, as a lot of the herky jerky that progressives suffer from come from forced resizing unlubed cases by main force in dry carbide dies, them oiled cases just slide in nice and easy with no jerking on retraction. You will learn to like oiled pistol cases as they keep better over time too -- no verdigris or uneven tarnishing to the degree you may have seen in the past on your media processed brass.

Canola oil, the stuff your wife keeps around for cooking, is a good case lubricant and brass surface protectant -- just remember your goal is a fine very slight oily feel to the brass so DON'T OVERDO IT with the oil. A Walmart plastic bag is good for oiling, just stir the brass around inside the bag until brass and bag are very very slightly oily feeling.

;) A very very small tiny dribble of oil will oil up a LOT of brass ....

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Pine on 10/25/13 at 07:02:38

I don't have any/many tricks... I will have to try that chem clean.. still using corn cob here..

I have been told:
Don't reload old Glock 9mm brass. Here's why; Glocks are great guns, and VERY reliable. Part of that reliability stems from the fact that a round is not fully enclosed when in the breach. This is not an issue with a new round ( generally). But the used round from the Glock will now have a bulge and be weaker where it was not enclosed. The reloading process will put the round back to spec.. but it will still be weak. One can imagine that doing this repeatedly to the same round.
This has turned into a common practice now to not use range brass of unknown origin.. esp law enforcement brass, as many departments use GLOCKS exclusively.

Nickel plated brass is self lubricating when reloading ( ok its just slicker). This is cool as heck. I have been using the same 3000 rounds of 38 special for 20 years. Most of it has been reloaded well over 10 times. part of the longevity is that these are low power ( 800 fps) rounds with lead bullets (I just barley open them up and then crimp lightly). I am only now getting a significant failure rate.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Oldfeller on 10/25/13 at 07:40:04

All of this "common knowledge" about Glocks came about due to the first generation Glock 40, its unsupported over the ramp chamber. and the well publicized Kbm tracking that went on during that time.

Gen 1 Glock 40s have long since been rolled out of service by all police departments a long long time ago. Glock traded in ALL police Gen 1 guns in a "trade up" program that was intended to purge out the Gen 1 guns as a corporate image thing. The actual unsupported chamber issue was fixed in Gen 2 guns up through Gen 4 which is the current Gen. Issue doesn't exist any more to any real degree.

The odds of seeing a bulged side on a fired Glock 40 case is actually pretty slim any more. And I mean it wasn't bashful, you'd notice it when you picked the brass up.

The issue NEVER EXISTED on 9mm Glock, so it isn't real for 9mm at all. People talking about 9mm Glocks and stuff are just being silly.

Now, I had a Gen 1 Glock 40 at that time and I did resize and reload the brass that came out of it. For years and years and years.

The ramp bulge was very familiar to me as ALL 1911 Colts did the same exact thing. What made the Colts relatively safer than the Gen 1 Glock 40 was that the 45ACP's pressure was a lot lower in the Colt. And when a Colt case let loose it just blew the magazine out the bottom of the gun and never seemed to hurt anybody for much. The gun damage was very minimal as well.

Gen 1 Glock 40 blew out a higher pressure case, spit the magazine out, sometimes split the plastic body of the gun, could hurt the holding hand and sometimes threw bits at the bystanders. The gun was always totally ruined. A Gen 1 Glock 40 Kbm was a notice-worthy event ....

So, this is ancient history unless you notice a bulge in a Glock fired 40 S&W case, in which case you can toss it if it makes you feel better.

My current 40 is a modified Beretta 96 that has a fully supported chamber, so I can shoot anything from any source (and I do).

And that is not to say I don't like a Glock, because I do. My daughter and her husband however came by a while back and took my Glocks away from me for their own use (my daughter has good taste in guns, always has).

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Midnightrider on 10/25/13 at 12:20:22

My wife has 2 Glocks, a 9mm and a 45. When she retired from law enforcement they sold her the 45 she carried for $1. We've never shot them but we keep em loaded hid in the house. Whats the best place online to order the Lee Press. I buy most of my guns off friends and Armslist. I really dont have a certain gunshop I'm loyal to. We have a Gander Mtn. here but they're way to high. The $99 one you were talking about OF is probably the one I'll start with. I had a Lee single in the 70's and it did everything I asked it to do well.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Oldfeller on 10/25/13 at 17:51:08

The answer for who is the best person to buy Lee products from is MidSouth Shooter Supply or Graff and Sons, it depends on which has the best price on what you're buying this week.

You need to get a Lee Precision catalog from Lee. Just look them up online and you will find a place where you can order a catalog for free.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/26/13 at 06:58:41

Ive driven to Dallas to go to Cheaper than Dirt to buy ammo & stuff..
If youve got a lever or bolt action 22 rifle you REALLY otta get some O those Aguilla powderless 22 shells. I can hear the hammer fall, sounds like a dry fire, on the Henry lever action. A pellet gun is much louder. Still pretty noisy in a pistol, not as loud, but noisy. A guy could shoot in his back yard in the city with the powderless. From 20' itll stick in a white pine 2X4 pretty good.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by prechermike on 10/28/13 at 05:19:57

I have been pleased with Rocky Mountain Reloading for their projectiles. They had them when it seemed no one else did.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Oldfeller on 10/29/13 at 09:37:37

Right about when you see something at Rocky Mountain Reloading that is really good, then the chances are pretty good that it tends to show up at Graf & Sons at about the same price.

Still, I have bought 500 lots of bullets from RMR on occasion when they had something that I wanted that was at a good price.

(lately they are selling stuff at only 20% off of new which is really too too high for pulled bullets)

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by oldNslow on 10/29/13 at 12:32:56

http://moonbattery.com/?p=38648

Here's some more bad news for shooters/reloaders.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by verslagen1 on 10/29/13 at 13:02:27

Quick, go down to the local tire shop and grab a bucket of used wheel weights.

There's a guy on guns.com using alternate materials as projectiles.

yeah... playdough

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Midnightrider on 10/29/13 at 13:18:26

My dad used to load shotgun shells with rocksalt to run off stray dogs.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by oldNslow on 10/29/13 at 13:37:24

Quote:

Quick, go down to the local tire shop and grab a bucket of used wheel weights.

Wish I could. Believe it or not lead wheel weights have been against the law in New York since 2010. If they happen to fall off and land on the side of the road they are considered hazardous waste ::) Same roads that the state dumps millions of tons of salt on every winter. Makes perfect sense to me ::)

Oh wait ! Midnight said something about rock salt. Guess I'm all set after all. I'll just go shovel a bunch of that up. :(

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Midnightrider on 10/29/13 at 18:54:43

That lead plant closing is scary. Makes me think of just buying $500 worth of ammo. I've heard of solid copper bullets. Anyone have any experience with them. Knowing the price of copper it will add a lot of moolah to the cost of a bullet.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by RatdogWillie on 10/29/13 at 19:33:08

714F4E42504C4D230 wrote:

http://moonbattery.com/?p=38648

Here's some more bad news for shooters/reloaders.

Now we know why the government purchased billions of rounds of hollow points.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Midnightrider on 10/29/13 at 20:32:25

Rat that thought crossed my mind too. From now on any gun I buy will be able to shoot foreign ammo.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by oldNslow on 10/30/13 at 05:28:59

[quote author=6D49444E494748545249444552200 link=1382594611/15#26 date=1383103945]Rat that thought crossed my mind too. From now on any gun I buy will be able to shoot foreign ammo /quote]

Probably don't even need to pass a law to make that disappear. The EPA could likely just issue a new regulation. Can't be importing all that toxic lead. :(

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Pine on 10/30/13 at 08:42:41

6C5F4A5A515969575252575B3E0 wrote:

[quote author=714F4E42504C4D230 link=1382594611/15#20 date=1383075176]http://moonbattery.com/?p=38648

Here's some more bad news for shooters/reloaders.

Now we know why the government purchased billions of rounds of hollow points.[/quote]

My thoughts as well. I knew lead was drying up, but never dreamed it would all be gone. Copper IS expensive. Most likely frangibles will be the go to for target shooting.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Midnightrider on 10/30/13 at 20:53:59

If the goverment has their way we will be shooting sling shots, then they'll make steel balls illegal.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by verslagen1 on 10/30/13 at 21:50:20

7B5F52585F515E42445F525344360 wrote:

If the goverment has their way we will be shooting sling shots, then they'll make steel balls illegal.

when they make rocks illegal I'll worry.
besides, we all know those things are dangerous.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/30/13 at 22:14:18

As much as it seems reasonable to use a thumb to push the Y against the rubber trying to lay the Y down on your arm, Dont DEWITT! Its waay easy to let the thing go wrong & Smash that thumb nail,,
Yea,, I KNOW that looks like personal experience,, thats cuz it IS,, Daaang that hurteded...

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by old_rider on 10/31/13 at 00:18:01

67434E44434D425E58434E4F582A0 wrote:

If the goverment has their way we will be shooting sling shots, then they'll make steel balls illegal.

I already have an answer for my home defense, its called a paintball gun, fires at about 400 feet per second (cranked up).

They are about 68 cal. and guess what? there are a lot of marbles out there that size! Just put the marbles in the freezer, boil some water, take the marbles out and put them in a hand strainer and dip them quickly into the hot water. Hear and see them crack?

Guess what happens when you shoot them out of the paintball gun? OWIE for the bad guys. Some of the marbles will shatter and splinter, but most will hold their shape until they are hit with the air pressure and then upon leaving the barrel they either flare out like buckshot or shatter when they hit, either way I win.

I'm kinda evil like that...I don't show it...but don't try to hurt me or mine.

And did you know, you can make an air dart capable of traveling about 200 yards accurately? That is if the wind it ain't blowing 25 to 30 miles per hour.

I'm thinking on making a dart rifle, using a paintball gun with a really long barrel.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Midnightrider on 11/01/13 at 00:54:45

I've got a competition air rile that shoots around a thuosand feet per second and is deadly accurate. A friend of mine told me they were gonna ship lead here from Peru. I hope its true but shipping it is gonna add to the cost

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Midnightrider on 11/01/13 at 13:58:31

Has anyone else heard the rumor about lead from Peru? I found a forum for my Ruger Mini 14 and Mini 30. It has many suggested loads for each rifle.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Oldfeller on 11/01/13 at 15:46:17

Lead is also mined in China and exported to the USA in the form of wheel weights.

Californians must worry about their supply of lead, the rest of us do not need to worry at this time.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Midnightrider on 11/01/13 at 16:05:04

Lead wheel weights are outlawed in many states. I never wanted to cast lead bullets, I prefer jacketed bullets. Please explain how California is the only state that should be worried. Hornaday and other bullet makers arent going to melt wheel weights.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Oldfeller on 11/01/13 at 16:28:36

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3M_Automotive/OEMs/3M_Solutions/Wheel_Weight_Legislation/

http://solutions.3m.com/3MContentRetrievalAPI/BlobServlet?lmd=1285959107000&locale=en_US&assetType=MMM_Image&assetId=1273667282492&blobAttribute=ImageFile

;)

Now, this isn't the be all end all of information -- it is just what I found when I went looking. Besides, I have enough lead in muffin tin ingots to last me the rest of my lifetime. Also, I think you can still buy lead ingot (25 pounders) at industrial and plumbing supply houses.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by WD on 11/01/13 at 17:44:42

Am I really the only forum member with over one TON of lead stashed at his place? Father in law was a plumber. His father was a plumber... that's over a century of scrap lead just from the plumbing business. Plus we have old batteries back to the 1920s. And a bunch of lead boat anchors.

I can't find my pliers operated .30/30 reloading stuff. I desperately need some 180gr pure lead, round nose, original specs rounds. My saddle ring carbine (20 inch octagon barrel) Winchester does NOT like jacketed flat nose. At all. I've got the empty shells. I have some FFFg (not opposed to "smoke and thunder" loads). I even have some primers. Can't find my dies or the handles, they may have gotten accidentally junked.

You guys and your silly little lever operated presses... My late second wife's (Trish) dad had a plug in press. We'd load at minimum a 55 gallon barrel per caliber at one press run. No muss, no fuss, let it run until the feeders were empty, refill and keep going. Couple hundred thousand rounds per weekend was not unusual.

And yes, an ammo/component stockpile like that is illegal.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Ed L. on 11/02/13 at 19:14:27

Been buying wheel weight lead ingots online for casting plinker rounds for all my calibers. Beats having to melt and process the wheel weights if I could find them, I wouldn't turn any down, just can't find any. The local tire stores aren't giving wheel weights away any more either, they sell them to the battery recyclers. I'm thinking about stopping by the local junk jard and see if I can pull my own.
So far my favorite plinker load for just about any 30 caliber rifle is a .311 100 grain cast bullet over 5-6 grains of a fast burning pistol powder like Bullseye. It's sort of like shooting a .22 on steroids, accurate out to about 75yds, low recoil and not to noisy. The cost per round is about 6 cents and I have been using a home made bullet lube. Works great with 30-06 and my 7.7 jap. Tried some ultra light loads with 1.5 grains of powder which were fun but totally lost it at 25yds.
Been getting back into black powder and picked up a .50 caliber Hawkens cap lock for real cheap that had been shortened into a carbine. It is a mild Bubba job but could of been worse. Only problem with it is that I can't find any #11 caps locally. Ended up machining a new nipple to accept some berdan primers which I picked up from Graffs a few years ago just to get the Hawkens to make some noise. :D
WD, I'm lusting after you scap lead pile, a ton of lead would just be so cool to have as a shooter.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Midnightrider on 11/03/13 at 22:12:31

Ed if I knew you lusted after a ton of lead I would have introduced you to my ex wife.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by mpescatori on 11/04/13 at 02:14:41

My thoughts on this... considering there is no "cowboy culture" in Europe and nobody is allowed to carry openly unless you are a LEO in full uniform.

Having to think "what to do, how to protect myself" when all goes haywire, my thoughts immediately go back to the trapper/cowboy who, way back in the 1870's, required a "do-all" cartridge.

One cartridge for his lever-action rifle, and for his revolver.

In those days of "smokey" black powder, it was the 38-40 or the 44-40. These days, you'd translate those black powder cartridges as the .357Mag and .44Mag. OK, why ? And what do I gain ?

http://i795.photobucket.com/albums/yy234/Encore4me/134.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/2cdejkh.jpg

Firsto of all, a revolver and a lever/bolt/pump action rifle chambered for the same cartridge mean you have only half the logistics to worry about,
much like having many vehicles but all running of the same fuel and the same oil (and maybe even the same tire size).
In other words, only one kind of primer, powder, dies and quite possibly even a single bullet design may do.

Secondly, it means that "when out and about" you should never "run out of ammo" for one particular weapon.

Third, both cartidges have the softer, "Special" equivalent caliber which may be reloaded with very soft charges in order to allow for training, plinking (very much the same)
and sub-sonic shooting (when you nees a "poof" not a "bang" as in poaching or getting even).

Fourth, cylindrical cartridges are the simplest to resize and recycle umpteen times, over and over - unlike bottleneck cartridges which may bend, kink and chink beyond hope... and which require jacketed bullets else the barerel leads up.

Last... (and this holds true especially for .44 cartidges) you can concoct your own home made shotshells even for a rifled bore, keeping in mind they're only good a few feet away from the muzzle...
...but they still pack a bang and work when you need to spray the area!

In other words... I wouldn't waste my time with a fancy "assault rifle" stile carbine, nor with an auto that holds 15 rounds in a clip, when I can't reload either... or it's such a hassle that it is eventually not even worth it.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2493/3830713669_db35358ac1.jpg

(PS The revolver cartridges also allow you to experiment some veeery interesting bullet designs... )

http://www.tiropratico.com/immagini/thv22.jpg

8-)

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by oldNslow on 11/04/13 at 05:30:15

mpescatori wrote
Quote:

In other words... I wouldn't waste my time with a fancy "assault rifle" stile carbine, nor with an auto that holds 15 rounds in a clip, when I can't reload either... or it's such a hassle that it is eventually not even worth it.

Interesting post. My go-to gun is in fact a lever action carbine in 44 mag. It holds 10 rounds in the magizine, is short, light, simple to operate and very rugged. But, because of the cartridge it is chambered for, it is NOT a substitute for a real rifle chambered in an actual rifle cartridge. It is in reality a 100 - 150 yard firearm due to the trajectory of the cartridge.

A rifle chambered 223/5.56, regardless of the action type or magizine capacity is a REAL rifle whith a practical effective range of at least 300 yards, and, in the hands of a true marksman, probably twice that. And 223 is the easiest, least expensive, rifle cartridge to reload for. In fact, since my 223 is a bolt action not a semi-auto and therefore dosen't require that I crimp the cartridges, one of the reloading steps is eliminated.( 44 mag cartridges require a very heavy crimp with most powders to work properly)

223/5.56 cartridges are also the least expensive centerfire rifle cartridges for non reloaders to buy, and since they are used by military and law enforcement all over the world, they are very easy to find. If you've got a rifle chambered for 223, regardless of the action type, you are likely to be able to find ammo for it for a good long time and regardless of the political situation.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Pine on 11/04/13 at 06:16:49

5F7C7476757C7C7562100 wrote:

Whether the above is factual or not... I live in Mississippi. We are a very rural and rather gun loving state. I can tell you the "lead" wheel weights here have dried up. It's 99% bismuth weights. Law or no, lead has left the supply.

Per WD, most "casters" are looking to alternatives for free or low cost lead. Our gun club even got permission to "legally" raid an old hospital for lead shielding ( it was already gone).

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Pine on 11/04/13 at 06:23:31

My thoughts on this... considering there is no "cowboy culture" in Europe and nobody is allowed to carry openly unless you are a LEO in full uniform.

I have done this. I own 4 revolvers, all .357, and one lever action in .357. While the revos love the .38 to plink and target practice, the lever rifle just needs more power. Range of a .38 target load with rifle is maybe 40 yards before your aiming at the sky completely. Now, did I buy all this with such in mind? Not the revos, but the rifle yes. I don't intend to kid myself. A .357 lever, is in NO WAY a match for a modern 223. But for hunting, and scaring bad guys at night.. it beats sticks and sling shots... and esp.. calling 911.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Oldfeller on 11/04/13 at 06:53:45

Got to separate "hunting" from "self-protection" from "running battles". Each has its own requirements for equipment.

Being old now, I don't think I'd be joining any running battles, instead I'd avoid those situations as best as I could.

Self protection for me has declined now to just protecting a distributed family. Since they will have to protect themselves where they are I do that by providing "stuff" and teaching and training.

Hurricane Katrina has taught us that widespread need due to disaster can bring out the guns fairly readily. A terrorist attack with the somewhat technically available EMP pulse weapons could give us a very widespread disaster of some considerable size that would be VERY slow to recover from.

Thinking about the large proliferation of semi-auto .223 rifles makes you ponder exactly what the other person has for a mindset.

I went to the Gander Mountain grand opening of their new "survival store" -- they had floor displays of 50 BMG and some smaller cans full of 7.62 Nato and 223 that was deemed "suitable for burial". The domestic guns industry is ready now to equip you for Armageddon or any of the lesser conflagrations you might imagine.

I personally am equipped for hunting and personal protection. Somebody spraying 20 round clips of .223 at me from close range is likely to win anyway whether they can actually shoot or not (unless I shoot my buckshot equipped pump shotgun first that is).

Folks, you got people buying battle plate kelvar outfits to go along with their M17a clones -- these are the ones who really intend to "win".

===================

Now, back to reloading.

You need primers and powder and bullets. You have the brass from what you bought initially (or like me you buy the brass miltary surplus just as cheap as you can get it).

Let me expand your thinking a bit about brass. Brass is what it is, and what it can become.

7.62 Nato is flexible brass. It is .308, 260 Rem, 7mm08, .243 Win each one naturally with just a trip through the sizing die. And, in a pinch it can become short-necked cast bullet versions of 8x57, 6.5x55, 7x57 etc. etc.

Having some brass around is a good thing as the price of brass the metal is headed for the moon over time. Buying some extra brass now when it is relatively cheap might be a good idea.

And here is the source that is the best $$$ right now for same year head stamp 7.62 SBS brass (This is Santa Barbra Systems brass, a division of General Dynamics, i.e. Spanish built brass under US contract).

The Lake City brass costs more and it is mixed head stamp from all years, but folks claim it is "better brass" than the SBS. Might be, but for cast bullet shooting I think the SBS will do fine.

If you want Lake City, go to GIbrass.com where you can get it a little cheaper along with your bulk powder and bullets.

Big-Brass.com

http://a248.e.akamai.net/origin-cdn.volusion.com/chylj.mnvss/v/vspfiles/photos/categories/1823.jpg?1353401296

================

Got my 500 pieces of Big Brass 7.62x51 SBS in today. It came in cleaned, tumbled and ready to deprime and resize all packed out neat & clean in a heavy plastic bag.

All of it was the same head stamp and it looked undamaged as far as rims tears and side dings go -- the brass was all fired in machine guns that were apparently in good shape with no chamber burs or "fluting" style damage. None of it was fired in a FAL, all appears to be SAW or M60 machine gun fired brass.

Machine guns are hard on brass since a MG can offer a "variable length chamber" according to which gun it was fired in and where that barrel and latch system sat in its overall wear life.

Expansion and OAL of fired brass varies a lot with 20-30% of the brass being expanded too far in web area diameter & head to shoulder length, so all this machine gun brass needs to be completely resized (100% inserted until the shell holder FIRMLY seats on the die body). This crushes out all length variation and diameter variation back to spec and moves all the variation out so it is stated as neck length variation.

Then trim all the cases to length, then bevel inside of the mouth, then deburr the mouth of the primer pocket.

Once fired machine gun brass is cheap, but it MUST be completely reprocessed correctly or you will occasionally hit an over length case, one that simply got stretched a lot more than the rest of them did.

Remember, reprocessing moves the shoulder back on the stretched cases and all that extra length then moves up to the neck area, increasing that trim case length noticeably on any stretched cases.

Any cases that show up being REALLY a lot longer in the neck than the rest after full length sizing should be tossed out as there is actually a stretch mark down inside the case where the case wall actually yielded and thinned out to make up all that extra neck length.

Loss during processing is generally in the range of a percent or three -- and it is always smart to let brass sit for a day or three between any processing steps that compress or expand the brass -- brass will work hardens then it air anneals over several days of rest. Full flame anneal needs to be done about every 4-5 reloadings as neck cracks will begin to develop if this step is not done.

You must lubricate your brass before depriming/resizing is done. Cooking oil is fine for case lubing, just go very very lightly if you are bulk lubing by the drip and stir method. A very very slightly oily feel is what you are after, not a full coating of oil.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Oldfeller on 11/04/13 at 07:27:42

Bullets are the largest cost portion of any reload.

The low cost "Russian" bullets coming into the country now may be copper plated soft steel, even the soft point cheap stuff that you see may be copper plated soft steel. Remember to ASK before ordering.

Privi Partisan (Croatia) is all copper, so make an exception for them in your thinking as they are being bulk packed out by Graf & Sons right now and are the least cost non-steel hunting bullets on the planet right now.

Buying bullets hurts a lot now because BULLETS are in the shortest supply of all reloading components. Bullets are getting premium plus prices right now no matter what the source.

Pulled bullets and "seconds" are also available occasionally. Manufacturers still screw up and have to pull down lots of ammo and the bullets do get sold off by folks like Rocky Mountain Reloading. Seconds get sold off by Graf & Sons and Midsouth Shooters Supply. Pulled bullet appearance will vary according to what it took to pull the ammo down.

============

Cast Bullets

In certain calibers properly constructed cast bullets work as well as a jacketed slug ever did. 30-30 is a cast bullet natural caliber, as is all of the .38 and.44 and .45 pistol based stuff. .308 based stuff can do cast at reduced velocity, but when you go below .308 things get a little twitchy accuracy wise as the acceleration and twist of the smaller calibers work against them, as do the long bullet lengths for the smaller diameters.

Why cast? Cast bullets in appropriate calibers work VERY well and are at the "less than a nickel" cost level (includes metal cost and a gas check). Plus, many pistol based calibers can shoot a bevel based cast bullet with no gas check at full velocity with acceptable accuracy.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Pine on 11/04/13 at 09:25:47

I didn't realize that 30-30 was cast friendly... I might have to look into that.

My reload velocitys:

.38 target 158 semiwadcutter- 780 to 820
.38 - 162gr 800 to 900
.357 - 162gr 1300 - 1400
.357 180gr keith 1100

(note that most 9mm achive over 1500 fps and upwards of 1700) 9mm IS .38 caliber but the bullets are lighter ( 115 to 140 grain)
Notice my fastest round is slower than a 9mm.

Side note(I have a custom, one of a kind barrel for my revo... with a reduced twist rate... just for 180 gr bullets)

So far I have not dabbled in gas checks, though I undstand you can buy a gas check punch .. and make your own ( even from AL drink cans!)

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Oldfeller on 11/04/13 at 17:38:39

9x19. going 1,500 to 1,700 fps ???

9mm Sig mebbe, using very light slugs.

I own couple of pistols that can get up into that speed range .... but certainly they aren't 9x19 parabellums.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by MMRanch on 11/04/13 at 22:21:10

Hay OldFeller

Doin't forget about necking up to .358 on the 308 brass then you could use cast (GC.) bullets and still load close to max loads. Not sure rifles are still being made in .358 Win. ? My .357 rifle gets close to max speed with 125gr projectiles. +- 2,100 fps.

By time those "Spray and Pray" types get close enouth to hit anything a good 10-22( w/30rd clip )will out do them couse of recoil managment ! or like you sugested buck shot headed down range at 12 to 20ct. at a time. :P

Pine ,
I've been loading 30-30 for a long time. The 170 gr GC. at 2200 fps is full power. And the hard lead is "Car Killer" stuff.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by WD on 11/04/13 at 22:46:10

7D44434859425F2D0 wrote:

I didn't realize that 30-30 was cast friendly... I might have to look into that.

Originally loaded in 160gr, 165gr, 180gr and 185gr pure soft lead round nose. My 1967 M6702 Winchester saddle ring carbine actually requires the early 180gr lrn for optimal accuracy. With 150 or 170gr jacketed flat nose, I could stand on the porch, and miss you under the poplar in the front yard. You've been to my place, that's what, all of 45 feet? The same gun, with 180gr lead round nose (lrn) has rung steel at over 300 yards, offhand, open iron sights.

Give a Winchester the real loading. Save the sissy crap for Marlin 336s. ;)

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Oldfeller on 11/05/13 at 03:52:15

I built up a rusty Marlin 30AS pawnshop 30-30 rifle to use the original Fat 30 cast bullet, a 193 grain flat nose lead slug that was designed & built on Castboolits back in my lead slinging days. Works well, hits velocities that were very much the original specs on the 30-30 back when it was the very First Civilian Small Bore Smokeless American Cartridge.

The 30-30 was ground-breaking, a tiny smokeless powder cartridge built specifically for the high-wall Winchester lever action (THE American rife style at the time). It was a paragon of Speed and Power, it was advertised for killing any game in North America. And it did. And it has, for over 100 years. Yep, elk & moose & bears too.

Remember, 250 yards was a long long way to hunt with a 45-70 back in the day due to the trajectory -- unless you had a yardage calibrated tang peep sight that is.

A 30-30 shot FLAT back in that "first smokeless powder world", flat out to 125 yards, which meant it shot flat for most normal hunting done at the time. Beyond 125 yards you needed to use elevation, or what most hunters taught their kids was to hold even with the deer's back for the long shots (or to sneak in closer, if you could really hunt that is).

The rusty Marlin 30AS rifle cleaned up pretty good and it shot the Fat 30 so well that I scoped the old thing with a cheap old Simmons scope and then (now that I could see the target better) it shot that 193 grain bullet so well I KEPT it.

Right now it is still my most accurate cast bullet rifle, which is was unexpected. It certainly has the worst trigger of any of my guns, by far.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by MMRanch on 11/05/13 at 07:32:28

Must be something to this :

Right now it is still my most accurate cast bullet rifle, which is was unexpected.

I shoot 170 gr and/or 115 gr. with iron peep sight . Either bullet is just as accurate as "Iron Sight" can be. Both run 2200fps , and the rifle send them both to the same place with-out adjusting the sight for the pecturlar bulllet. I've got a pre WWII Marlin modle 36 (not 336) just (M-36) with 24" barrel , the safe is half kock only from back in the day when the clumsy and stupid were allowed to take themselfs out of the jean-pool . ;D

I'm going to get it out and play with it today ! :)

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Pine on 11/05/13 at 07:47:58

5A490D0 wrote:

[quote author=7D44434859425F2D0 link=1382594611/45#47 date=1383585947]I didn't realize that 30-30 was cast friendly... I might have to look into that.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Oldfeller on 11/05/13 at 10:14:52

I tried cast at 250 yards once with the flat tipped Fat 30 intending to see if the "hold with the top of the deer" trick would actually work for the gun. Bullets grouped 24 inches below point of aim, group was an OK 8 1/2 inches and one clipped a sapling past the target and blew through 4 inches of wood with no problems. Enough energy was there, but the ballistics were too too curvy to suit me. The gun is a 150 yard gun for normal hunting.

Cast is cheap to shoot, but it is distance limited unless you actually go shoot over the field and the exact distance you plan to shoot. I knew one old man who hunted his own fields with cast from a blind up in the loft of an old barn. He had signs up on fence posts telling him how many mil dots to hold over for that particular distance.

He also believed that gun temperature played a bigger part in his long distance shooting than is commonly held. Propellants do operate at slightly different rates due to temperature, enough to shift his big assed long distance curves up and down if he didn't pay attention to it.

He got to the point he carried his rounds inside his jacket and he loaded them just before he took the shot.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by dinsdale on 11/05/13 at 10:38:45

17343C3E3D34343D2A580 wrote:

9x19. going 1,500 to 1,700 fps ???

9mm Sig mebbe, using very light slugs.

I own couple of pistols that can get up into that speed range .... but certainly they aren't 9x19 parabellums.

Peopel get up there when relaoding (mm Major for IPSC/USPSA but the guns are custom built with Ports etc.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by MMRanch on 11/05/13 at 12:22:37

I know cold air is thicker than warm air and so the bullets slow down quicker "when the temperature drops so do the bullets" , ;)

also

cold powder burns slower . Cold barrels are smaller in dia. too . go figure ! :D

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Oldfeller on 11/06/13 at 10:15:28

Cast bullet lubes are stickier and more viscous the colder it gets too.

There are lots of real "physics type" reasons that sticking your cast rounds inside your jacket to keep them warm is a smart thing to in the winter time to control that variable rainbow a little better.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Oldfeller on 11/06/13 at 19:57:02

6E6364796E6B666F0A0 wrote:

[quote author=17343C3E3D34343D2A580 link=1382594611/45#48 date=1383615519]
9x19. going 1,500 to 1,700 fps ???

9mm Sig mebbe, using very light slugs.

I own couple of pistols that can get up into that speed range .... but certainly they aren't 9x19 parabellums.

Peopel get up there when relaoding (mm Major for IPSC/USPSA but the guns are custom built with Ports etc.
[/quote]

:)

OK, nice thought but not really real at the speeds quoted. Here are some 9mm Major loads run out of extended (recoil ported) pistol barrels.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12740&hl=major

Posted 04 April 2004 - 11:58 AM
Here are the latest loads that I have Chronoed as I develop loads for 9Major.

Barrel: Bar-Sto Precision Length: 4.25

Bullet 124 Jacketed Hollow Point Zero 0.355
Case: Winchester
COAL: 1.145

Powder Hodgdon Longshot

Chg High Low SD CV MAD CV ES Average PF
6.6 1287.2 1261.8 9.60 0.75% 8.00 0.62% 25.4 1273.4 157.90
6.8 1349.5 1302.9 16.90 1.27% 13.60 1.02% 46.6 1323.4 164.10
7.0 1361.7 1321.6 11.90 0.88% 9.00 0.67% 40.1 1338.4 165.96
7.2 1372.9 1326.9 17.90 1.32% 15.00 1.10% 46 1354.7 167.98
7.4 1396.8 1377.4 6.70 0.48% 5.60 0.40% 19.4 1387.9 172.10

Powder IMR 7625

Chg High Low SD CV MAD CV ES Average PF

5.0 1181.6 1136.5 13.50 1.17% 8.50 0.73% 45.1 1148.9 142.46
5.2 1184.3 1154.5 10.70 0.91% 29.80 0.76% 29.8 1170.9 145.19
5.4 1203.9 1180.2 8.90 0.74% 8.00 0.67% 23.7 1193.1 147.94
5.6 1241.6 1221.9 6.50 0.52% 5.40 0.43% 19.7 1230 152.52
5.8 1275.1 1224.9 14.70 1.17% 10.90 0.87% 50.2 1250.2 155.02
6.0 1297.8 1233.6 21.30 1.68% 17.00 1.34% 64.2 1265.6 156.93

Powder Vihtavuori N350

Chg High Low SD CV MAD CV ES Average PF

6.0 1244.7 1201.7 12.80 1.04% 10.50 0.85% 43 1222.1 151.54
6.2 1272.8 1224.5 14.40 1.15% 10.10 0.81% 48.3 1241.6 153.96
6.4 1305.6 1248.2 14.60 1.14% 9.70 0.75% 57.4 1277.3 158.39
6.6 1340.9 1297.0 12.60 0.95% 9.20 0.69% 43.9 1320.7 163.77
6.8 1383.8 1339.3 13.20 0.97% 9.80 0.72% 44.5 1357.2 168.29
7.0 1378.8 1342.4 10.90 0.80% 9.20 0.67% 33.4 1362.5 168.95
7.3 1402.0 1363.3 14.10 1.01% 10.80 0.77% 38.7 1385.7 171.83

UPDATE: Add Ramshot True Blue data
4-18-2004 Added loads from 7.4 - 8.0

6.2 1119.6 1089.3 9.4 0.85% 6.9 0.62% 1100.5 30.3 136.5
6.4 1145.4 1114.2 9.9 0.87% 7.0 0.62% 1137.2 31.2 141.0
6.6 1194.7 1157.0 11.5 0.98% 8.3 0.71% 1171.8 37.7 145.3
6.8 1204.0 1188.1 5.9 0.49% 4.6 0.38% 1197.4 15.9 148.5
7.0 1284.5 1213.9 20.4 1.66% 13.8 1.12% 1234.2 70.6 153.0
7.2 1288.8 1231.7 17.7 1.41% 14.0 1.11% 1259.3 57.1 156.2
7.4 1294.0 1266.0 10.5 0.82% 8.3 0.65% 1278.3 28.0 158.5
7.6 1329.0 1303.0 8.4 0.64% 6.7 0.51% 1314.0 26.0 162.9
7.8 1387.0 1356.0 11.1 0.81% 8.7 0.63% 1369.5 31.0 169.8
8.0 1398.0 1382.0 5.8 0.42% 4.3 0.31% 1390.7 16.0 172.4

UPDATED 7625 INFO Added 6/25/05
Note: The bullet and OAL are only for the following two 7625 loads only.

Bullet Hornady 124gr FMJ encapsulated
Cartridge OAL 1.178

Average Avg PF Hi Low AvDv StDev
7.0gr 1342.56 166.5 1355 1322 8.05 11.02
7.2gr 1372.6 170.2 1392 1358 10.72 12.75

Will Update this as I get more info

Alan Meek :)

I also checked to see if carbine length barrels could add in the 200-400 fps difference.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=105472

These are the folks who load 9mm hot and they are saying 1450 fps is about the top end before carbine gun damage begins. Remember, most 9mm carbines are simple blow back actions and if you go too hot the chamber area can crack or the slide mass begins to get some peening damage/breakage at the slam stop point.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=387299

Here are some lever action folks (the strongest action type for 9mm) talking about "1,700 fps" as being an un-doable thing unless case pressures are run up to OVER the 50,000 psi level.

======================

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/357_magnum_and_the_literature.htm

Hot loads for the .357 Magnum in lever guns DO get up to range you are talking about. Perhaps you just remembered reading about the .357 magnum in a good strong lever action.

A .357 lever action Rossi in stainless steel is a gun that is noted as a very good high pressure high velocity brush gun good for deer and hogs.

Yup ..... and you can shoot gas checked cast slugs up at those speeds that you read about in the article. You will note that they use a LOT of slow H110 to get there though, at relatively lower pressures.

:) Like 3 times as much as you can put inside a 9mm case .....

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Pine on 11/07/13 at 06:48:17

Well looks like I may be mistaken....
well on one side I seemed to error.. sorry about that

On the other side.. Hooray.. my geriactic .357 isn't as sad as I recall being told.

I am using a Rossi .357. But only because the others are just too expesive and impossible to find used. I was able to get a rare DW fixed barrel .357 ( used and abused) and a really nice older Rossi for under $750 in a combo deal. Thought the Rossi was old, it was completely pristine.

The powders I commonly use are:
H110
Titegroup
HP-38
Lil'gun ( just to try it)

Titegroup has a large .38/.357 reloading list. Hp-38 not so much. I have not gotten into experimenting. So I pretty much follow the cookbooks as best I can.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by 45acp on 11/07/13 at 07:49:41

you guys are speaking my language now. i live on a shooting range so reloading is a way of life. i started on a lee classic single stage press. last year i upgraded to a dillon 550b progressive. i still load rifle on my lee, but the dillon is sooooo much faster for pistol. i currently load .223 rem, 7.62x39 russian, 30-06 springfeild, 30-30 winchester, 9mm, 40sw, 45acp, 38 spec, 357 magnum, 44 magnum, and 12 guage 00 buckshot. i cast all my own pistol bullets out of lead except 44 mag. i just havent bought a mold yet. i spent all day yesterday( when i wasnt with shooters) processing scrap lead into ingots. i did about 150 pounds into 1 pound bars.

we have a pistol shoting contest every month at my range, so i have been gearing up for that. i dont shoot in it, because i have to judge it. ::) i do shoot alot afterwards though. well actually i shoot alot all the time. everytime somone comes out to shoot. it makes me want to shoot. i think, oh man il just pop off a few rounds. 50 rounds later im wondering where all my ammo went. :)

im waiting on my new swaging dies to come in from corbin. ive been saving for a while and finally saved enough to buy the set that makes jacketed .223 rem bullets from spent 22lr casings. they were pricey, but with them i will be able to load 100 rounds of .223rem for just under $6. they should be here any day now. HURRY UP UPS!!!!!!

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by MMRanch on 11/07/13 at 09:04:57

Wow 45ACP

Let us know when you get the manufacturing process worked out and I'll start saving my 22LR hulls. You might get some help paying for your equipment if you want !

You thinking 60gr neighborohood ? Soft lead explosive-tip mabby ?

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by 45acp on 11/08/13 at 06:27:06

yep im thinking right around 62gr. ill be able to make hollow point down around 55gr, but i think around 60gr you start running out of jacket and have to make soft point. i wont know for sure till they get here. either way will work for me.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Oldfeller on 11/08/13 at 09:44:57

Well, so far we have established that a lot of us old codgers currently reload already. We also have a subset who used to cast and reload, but have stopped over the years.

We haven't seen any of the newer people asking any questions, though.
Nobody has said "I want to reload XX for my xxxxx nor has anyone asked any interesting questions.

So, I'll ask one. Anybody ever hollow pointed some milsurp lake city FMJ open bottom bullets? Anybody ever beat the "open bottom open top gas blowby" issue and still get some sort of expansion upon meat strike?

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by 45acp on 11/08/13 at 18:25:49

old codgers? hell im only 29. i have been casting black powder round balls since i was six, so maybe old codger fits. my lungs probably look like a coal miners. :-/ just got my tracking beacon from ups. odered my swaging dies monday. corbin finally sent it out today. maybe ill get it next week and can work up some bullets to show off.

i have never made hollow points out of fmj myself. sounds kinda difficult to me. sounds like a quick way to get a drill bit stuck in my hand. when i was a kid i tried cutting an x in the end of a 22lr. saw some guy do it on a cowboy movie and it looked awsome. anyway, i cut the crap out of my finger when the knife slipped off.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Midnightrider on 11/08/13 at 22:03:11

Not to do with reloading but I came across a Davidson Limited Edition 10/22 this afternoon at a local gun shop. Beautiful Laminated Stock and stainless steel barrel. I held it and couldn't put it down. My wife was with me , guess what? Its my Christmas Present from my wife. I love laminate stocks. I'm old fashioned and like wooden furniture. I have a M77 308 Compact with laminated stock and stainless barrel. Its my favorite alltime gun.I had a 10/22 I bought about 3 years ago ( gave my 1976 model 10/22 to my son in law) because it was on sale. It had a plastic stock. I never fired it because I didnt like carrying it around and I sold it for what I gave for it. I had to get another 10/22 because I have seven BX25 mags LOL. Now if I could just find a wooden stock for my Mini 30. I've heard you could modify a Mini 14 stock to fit a Mini 30 but my eyes arent good for working with close tolerances. I've got my plastic AR and Sig 522 and I can live with that but when a rifle has the shape of a rifle I want wood.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Oldfeller on 11/09/13 at 00:04:09

Cafe is where folks come to talk and conversations veer off in odd directions all the time.

This entire thread is a continuation of something that started on a motorcycle trip thread, so you can see how they go.

So yeah, wood is part of a gun.

And wood is important to the looks of a gun. Wood is also something that breaks too much as wood density and strength vary from chunk to chunk.

Have you ever heard of "pressure impregnated" wood stocks? Yup, like a telephone pole, except they use stiff plastic material not tar.

Ruger did this on their original deerslayer .44 carbine later on in the production runs because the very detailed very thin wood stocks were breaking on them too too much under warranty.

People didn't like the way it looked as it gave a milky sheen to the wood grain and it turned a nice chunk of walnut stock into something plasticy looking that folks simply wouldn't buy willingly.

I had one of these and it took me forever to figure out how to get it stained so it looked mostly right again.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Midnightrider on 11/09/13 at 02:16:23

Laminated stocks should be tougher than regular wooden stocks because of the glue (maybe epoxy) bonding the different layers. I doubt if I have any wood problems out of a 22 LOL but my laminated stock on my 308 has held up well for years and looks like new. I know a plastic stock will probably shoot better because its pretty much impervious to weather changes but I'm not a great shot and I probably couldnt tell the difference anyway. I dont shoot anything more powerful than a 308 since I cant hunt anymore and I'm just an old fart that prefers wooden stocks.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Oldfeller on 11/09/13 at 04:48:35

Me too, old fart just piddling around, playing with bits and pieces left over from years past. Had some projects that never finished out, now I have time to finish them.

Speaking of wood, I've got a K31 with a gnarly snow-stained wooden stock to deal with.

Snow stained ??? you say -- WTF is that??.

Rifles were pyramid stacked against each other in the snow for field storage during each yearly winter training exercises. The wood was soaked, frozen, thawed, frozen -- the wood at the butt end is a mess.

The stain effect goes deep, it isn't just a surface defect.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by 45acp on 11/09/13 at 07:48:30

i shot alot of black powder, so i really love a wooden stock. i have some polymer stocked rifles. they just dont compare with my black powder collection. i really love the old thompson center rifles. i can hardly pass one up for sale at a decent price. they made some beautiful rifles before the plant burned down. now they make mostly polymer ::) about a year ago i found a t/c renegade with a presentation grade stock in unfired condition. some day ill fire it. right now im just content to let it hang in my livingroom. :)

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by WD on 11/09/13 at 08:36:13

6E4A474D4A444B57514A474651230 wrote:

Black powder deer opened today. I over slept...

You want to come deer hunting, no problem. We can put a chair and a heater in the horse trailer, the deer are used to it. Couple shipping crates to elevate the chair, as long as you have a scope, you're golden. Limit is 3 doe per day, 4 bucks for the season, which ends in early January... Modern gun opens the weekend before Thanksgiving.

Legitimate invitation, tell your wife you are going on vacation.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Midnightrider on 11/09/13 at 13:55:35

Thanks for the offer WD. That means a lot to me. I can climb a stand and sit in it. I dont have the strength to skin the deer and process the meat. Its pretty hard to skin a deer if you've lost over half of your body strength. It takes some strength to skin a deer, at least more than I have.There use to be a guy about an hr away. All you did was shoot the deer and take it to him. He would skin, gut and process the meat into hamburger or sausage or steaks and put it into small vacuum sealed bags for $75. Those vacuum sealed bags would last in the freezer for years. I've got a friend checking for me to see if the guy is still in operation. The last deer I took to him I killed it with a headshot from my 17HMR at 150 yds. Its illegal but I just wanted to see if the gun would do it. It was a 5 pointer and he hit the ground and never kicked. Blowed his eyeballs out. I was on my way to call in some coyotes and I saw him. My wife has cut up several deer for me to make jerky but with her babysitting our 2 year old grandchild and her part time work schedule she just doesnt have time. I've got a real smoker that runs off wood and people use to beg me for my jerky. I know a company that has around 6 deer practically fenced in on around 4 acres and somehow wild dogs are getting under the fence. and killing the Bambi's. They told me if I could, take the deer and the dogs. If the deerskinner is still in business I'll drop em. Got a camera in there and since the acorns are falling there's one fat 8 pointer in there. There's so many deer around here you cant hardly ride anymore safely. I've carried caskets of two friends killed by deer on motorcycles. A lot of them are dying off because of black tongue. That means the season is too short. I'm an animal lover, have several pets including squirrels. Have a flying squirrel that eats outta my hand everynight but I'll shoot a deer anytime , season or not as long as it is not a doe with a Bambi. I always ate the meat, I dont like to waste one of God's animals unless its a killer coyote, which there's way too many of them around here. One biker was killed by a deer less than a half mile from my house and I live in the city limits. I used to hunt on one guys land and his daughter was killed by a deer while driving a car. Must have come through the windshield. I told him one day about letting a small doe walk and he got up in my face and told me (not in a nice Christian way) I had better not let anything walk again. He hated deer with a passion and I could see why. I got so used to eating deer hamburger I dont even like real hamburger any more. The deerskinner knew just exactly how much beef fat to mix in and to me it made better soup and chili than the real stuff.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by 45acp on 11/09/13 at 18:34:54

our black powder season was only about 1 week long. I sat our there for four days of it and never saw a thing. except for some squirrels a couple of rabbits and a bunch of quail. my Dad not 200 yds away in another stand got three. guess I wasn't holding my tongue right.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by WD on 11/09/13 at 22:55:32

I've got a very large steel chain fall equipped A frame and a backhoe, skinning is NO problem. Retired preacher across the road was a USN butcher and then a civilian butcher.

Major concerns covered... so when should I expect you...

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by Midnightrider on 11/10/13 at 15:01:02

WD I've spent all my money on Christmas for my grandchildren. Still havent bought anything for my wife yet and she bought me a $350 gun I mentioned in one of the post above. Gotta get her something nice. She just bought a brand new 22' camper and shes wanting a flat screen for it. Guess thats what I will get her for Christmas. If we're still here next year I'll put some money aside and definitely head your way. We'll work it out a little earlier in the year so I'll have time to put money back before season rolls around. It's gonna cost a lot of gas money to drive my pickup from NC to your place. I have a big cooler that would hold at least 2 butchered deer. I mainly like hamburger and sausage but I save the tenderloin of course. Pm me your address sometime and I'll figure out about how much gas my truck would burn and if I can drive it in one day or not. Once again thanks for the offer and next year we'' start planning a little earlier. I'm really fond of your good ol boy southern humor and I'd love to spend some time with you.

Title: Re: Reloading for the rest of us
Post by WD on 11/10/13 at 23:35:28

Cool beans... there are "only" about 45 does in my resident herd... and tree rat opens the 4th Saturday in August, every year, runs through sometime in Feb. Snow/Blue/Ross geese limit is 25 per day in late season.

PM not necessary, zip is 38011. 35 miles northeast of Graceland.