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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Power outage. Main fuse blowing /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1382496515 Message started by walker on 10/22/13 at 19:48:35 |
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Title: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by walker on 10/22/13 at 19:48:35 Hello there. Awesome forum btw! 2004 Savage, 6,500 miles on it. (2,500 my own, been riding it since August with no issues- awesome bike!) Sexy silver and black. all stock. problem: Sunday morning it just died when I was on my way to church. Like lights, power, engine, everything just power out. I pushed it back up-hill to my apartment. that afternoon I took off the seat and it turns out the main fuse was blown. I replaced the fuse. It started right up. I let it idle for like 2 minutes then I got on it, switched into gear and rolled around on the parking lot. I got up to about 10 MPH in first gear, revved high and then it died again. Power out. Nothing. No difference what position the ignition was in. I parked it. Yesterday I took the seat off again and replaced the fuse. as soon as I turned the ignition key it blew the fuse. I did this twice. I peaked around and found all the wires to look pretty stock, like new. Put it back together and left it sitting. A friend told me it is probably a gad ground or something along those lines. Then today I took off the seat and looked around at the wires. They all look good, but I didn't trace all of them or use an OHM meter to test them. I did use my neighbors OHM meter to test the battery- it is fine. I disconnected the ground with the clip-deal connected to the negative battery terminal. I forgot to put it back in-- then I put in a new fuse. The parking light would come on with the ignition turned to park. nothing else would happen besides that. My friend saw that I forgot to reconnect the ground. He reconnected it. the lights came on, fuse didn't blow. we stared the bike. I let it idle. I revved it in neutral a bunch of times and it all stayed on, lights and everything. I put the seat on without really putting everything back together. Rode it gently up and down the lot, revving it a couple of times. Parked it. Very happy that I friend was good luck, since we didn't really do anything, we put it back together. We chatted for a bit, I figured I'd ride it once more up and down the street before it got dark. Got on, went a little less gently, but not too fast. it died when I was in first gear revving up about to switch into second. I hadn't even gone 50 feet. -_- I'm wondering why its blowing fuses when I rev it while it is in gear. I don't think its the ignition since it stars with a new fuse. Any ideas? (I've been commuting on this bike every day for the last 3 months and driving a car these last couple days is driving me crazy haha!) |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by Andreas on 10/23/13 at 02:43:14 The only thing I could think off, that has to do with both electrical and transmission is the neutral switch. How about disconnecting it and give it a try? I am attaching the connector location (picture taken from Savage companion CD) http://s9.postimg.org/4jdmpizhn/neutralswcon.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/4jdmpizhn/) |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by Dave on 10/23/13 at 06:49:58 You have some kind of a short somewhere that is blowing the fuse. Start it up, turn the forks left and right and see what happens....could be in the wiring harness at the forks. If that is not it look at the wiring harness down at the bottom of the engine behind the drive pulley, and then just start pulling and wiggling wires and see what makes the fuse flow. You probably don't need to have the bike running....just watch for the headlight to go out when the fuse blows. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by walker on 10/24/13 at 21:02:07 Roger that! Thanks for the ideas. I'll update as soon as I get another chance to work on it. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by pgambr on 10/25/13 at 01:36:19 I had a problem with mine as well. I gently wrapped all exposed and old wires with electrical tape that might rub against anything after I found the short. I keep a couple extra fuses and tape in my bag at all tines. No problems yet, 6 months later. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by JLight on 10/25/13 at 13:38:18 This going to sound strange but it's what was wrong with my '87 when I had that issue. My flasher unit for the blinkers was bad. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by WD on 10/26/13 at 08:20:47 My 98 did that a few times when it was still under warranty. Had it checked, everything tested out fine, and after awhile the issue went away on its own. Suzuki is well known, to the point of notorious, for having the worst seats and worst electrical parts of the Japanese Big 4 bike producers. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/27/13 at 06:49:55 Pull the seat, look around for wires that are crossing over the frame, under the seat & being pressed on.Nothing? Pull the tank, look around. Eyeball every wire you can see, anything close to stuff that moves, the belt, a pulley, anything. Look to see if wires got close enough to heat to soften them up & let electrons from a 12 volt wire pass into a ground wire or spill directly onto the chassis before they go thru the load theyre meant for, You dont have a bad connection, you have a short, a short is when current finds a way to flow unimpeded by an electronic resistive load, The electrons too a short-cut & happily went to ground w/o doing any work. & if youd rather swap an automotive flasher unit into it for a few buc\ks & get that variable outta the way,, thats problee a good idea. It mite save a coupla hours inspecting stuff.. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by old_rider on 10/27/13 at 07:48:12 696B6E6B723033020 wrote:
Have you had a chance to test this theory? It sounds about right.... Maybe if you were to change the fuse, start the bike and shift from neutral to 1st, to neutral to 2nd a few times while holding the brake, to see if it blows, do you have a really bright neutral light? does the neutral light flash brightly when you shift on the way into 2nd gear? The other thing is to check that engine ground wire.... take it off and clean under it anyway, maybe check its resistance when it is not connected to anything, it could have broken wires under the wrap that have corroded over time. Just an idea...hope you figure it out. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by walker on 10/27/13 at 22:27:09 Thanks for all the great imput! So I was fiddling around with it again today. Disassembled the seat and the side covers and stuff and re-eyeballed the wires. I almost decided to take the tank off but I didn't, I might next time If I don't figure it out soon. The fuse never blows with the negative battery terminal disconnected, which makes sense. The fuse doesn't blow when I turn the handlebars left and right. The fuse doesn't blow when I shift gears (went around from N-1-2 a couple of times) The fuse blows whenever it feels like. I only had about 7 fuses to play with so I didn't really get to scientifically diagnose it. I blew all seven without figuring much out. One time I did look at the neutral light and tried the horn, the horn was weak and the neutral light dimmed when I tried the signals and hazards. That fuse blew shortly after. Tried another a couple minutes later and started the bike, the light was strong and the horn was loud. On my last two fuses I think I found that the short or ground has to be above the seat part, either under the tank or in the handlebar connections. I'm going to buy a 25 pack of fuses and make a run at it again soon. sorry if this doesn't make much sense, I'm really tired, but I didn't want to leave anyone hanging. I really appreciate all the help. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by old_rider on 10/27/13 at 23:27:38 ]I don't have a manual at all, gonna have to get one. Sounds like you need to start from where the power is generated and work your way out from there. Someone is gonna have to talk you thru it since i'm trying to picture what is happening electrically. Take the tank off, it is fairly easily done... then chase a few wires... if that don't work start at the beginning. When you apply torque shifting into second it blows a fuse...... when torque is applied power is needed.... i'd start at power supply. When you tried signals and hazards you blew a fuse, when more power is needed for lighting i'd start at the power supply.. See where i'm going? I'm not sure, but one of the guru's should step in to help if they are around. Internet trouble shooting sux....would be great if you were like next door or close. Also what regulates the voltage?? doesn't that come after power supply? In the chain of power creation I mean. Hang in there someone with more backround should be here..... |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by swedishbiker on 10/28/13 at 00:32:04 Fuse blows cause something draws much current. You can put a bulb between battery + and the wire. If it lights you have something that draws current. That way you can check all wires, if it lights up something draws current. With that bulb in you will lose current for functions, but it seems that it's not any of them. But a short will light it. Normally it should not light, if there is noting that draws current. Think about it, put a bulb instead of the fuse, when it lights up you have a short. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by Dave on 10/28/13 at 09:24:04 272331303D273C363D3F3126540 wrote:
I think your "bulb" test works for finding a short that pulls a battery down when the key is off - but this problem works with the key "ON". When the key is switched "ON" the headlight, running lights, tail light, neutral light, coil and charging system are all energized......and your test light is going to light up....and this provides no useful information. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by verslagen1 on 10/28/13 at 09:59:03 Have a fuse that's blowing? HF has a meter that replaces the fuse. This would be ok for running down a short that blows with certain activity. ie. you can stop the short by not doing the activity, and prevent a melt down. A cheap version of this is replace the fuse with a 12v light wired into the fuse box. The light controls current, excessive current blows light. Safe. To use while running, should be same wattage as fuse or no go or not go for very long. 1st thing to do is examine the wiring harness for overheating. Since it's intermittent, it'll be dam hard to find otherwise. Examine the connectors for burning caused by high current. I would unplug 1 component at a time to see which one is causing the problem. While it may not be the component, at least you'll know which circuit to examine. And it might not be just one thing, could be several together. :o <happy thoughts... happy thoughts...> |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/28/13 at 10:16:24 A light will go REal Bright or blow. YOu can watch it go from normal to Small Sun. Dont let it do that for too long, else youll melt wires. You can use a Big Bulb & see it go from barely lit to well lit,, & thats sure to not blow & save your wires,, be kerfull! |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by Dave on 10/28/13 at 11:18:46 2E3137302D2A1B2B1B23313D76440 wrote:
I don't understand this concept. If the light can be connected directly from the positive to the negative of the battery......and light up. What is going to make it blow if you put it where the fuse would go? You aren't going to get any more current through the light than you would by placing it as a dead short between the two battery terminals? Let's say put the light where the fuse would be.....then find a wire and place it directy agains the fame. Instead of the fuse blowing the light bulb will get bright......but it won't blow as there is only 12 volts running through it and that is exactly what the light his designed to do. I am not sure how this light in the fuse locaiton is going to help. When you replace the fuse with the light bulb and turn on the key, current is going to start flowing in several directions. It wil be going to the neutral light, the headlight, the tail light, the front running lights, the ignition system, the safety interlock system(s). The light in place of the fuse is going to light up as you have put it in series with all these other systems....and maybe some of the currentl will flow through the short and into the frame - but the lgiht where the fuse goes will not burn out. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by old_rider on 10/28/13 at 11:26:58 If the voltage regulator (does this thing have one?) is broken or there is a surge causing the fuse to blow by a short in wires after the regulator of a higher amp wire crossing a lower amp wire a bulb or fuse could blow. That's what I'm trying to picture...but of course I don't do that well without some kinda map (schematic) in front of me, so I hope I'm not confusing him.... keep me straight ok? If I am causing more mayhem than help I will step aside. :) But it since he has looked at the wires under the seat and they look good, he needs to remove the tank and chase those wires all the way to the control switches and lights. I just don't know where higher amped wires are bundled with lower amped wires to tell him where to start. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by Dave on 10/28/13 at 11:36:01 5E4D5A5B44494F4D4619280 wrote:
Fuses are measured in Amps.........light bulbs are measured in Watts. What is the "same"? |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by verslagen1 on 10/28/13 at 11:59:45 volts * amps = watts For the typical rear signal lite... 32 watts / 12 volts = 2.7 amps 12 v * 20 amps = 240 watts that's a freakin' flood lamp! 8-) and note, if you use a 120 v rated bulb, you're going to get 1/10 the current at 12 v. for a head lamp... 60 watts / 12v = 5 amps. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by Arnold on 10/28/13 at 12:04:39 You can calculate the current (I) needed for the fuse, if you know the system is 12 volt (V) and the wattage (P) of the bulb, then P/V=I |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by Dave on 10/28/13 at 12:19:30 796A7D7C636E686A613E0F0 wrote:
I still aint' buyin' into this concept. You cannot get more power, amperage or wattage to flow through a light bulb than you can by placing it into a direct short with the battery terminals. Anything else you add will just increase the resistance in that circuit and make the light grow dimmer..... as it will increase the resistance in the circuit and reduce the current flow. You are putting the light bulb into the fuse location and making a "series" circuit....and the light bulb will limit the current and a direct short will only make the bulb light at the designed wattage....it will not blow the light bulb. If the circuits are working properly you will get some form of glow I suppose.......but trying to figure out the proper glow is anybodies guess. I can see how this might keep you from wasting money blowing fuses......as you will never be able to blow the light bulb placed where the fuse should go. However the lght bulb is gonna limit the current to whatever the maximum current is for the bulb you use.....and the headlight and other lights are going to do almost nothing if you use a very small bulb for the test light. I suppose if you watched the glow while you wiggle wires and watched to see the test light bulb get dimmer/brighter then maybe it could help. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by verslagen1 on 10/28/13 at 13:12:58 6D565B4C5D514A4C575F524D3E0 wrote:
True, the light will limit the current and cut the voltage in half. And if you happen to plug that into the TCI side, it ain't gonna start no how. The object of the game is to limit current to a safe level even when shorted. So, when working normally, lamp will be dim. When shorted it will be glowing brightly. If you had to ride around to look for the short, then the HF fuse gage will be better. Another alternative, you can get resettable fuses. I think you have to wait 5 min's for it to cool down then you can reset it. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/28/13 at 19:05:57 48737E6978746F69727A77681B0 wrote:
All based on the SWAG method,, scientific wild assed guess,, I don't understand this concept. If the light can be connected directly from the positive to the negative of the battery......and light up. What is going to make it blow if you put it where the fuse would go? You aren't going to get any more current through the light than you would by placing it as a dead short between the two battery terminals? Let's say put the light where the fuse would be.....then find a wire and place it directy agains the fame. Instead of the fuse blowing the light bulb will get bright......but it won't blow as there is only 12 volts running through it and that is exactly what the light his designed to do. I am not sure how this light in the fuse locaiton is going to help. When you replace the fuse with the light bulb and turn on the key, current is going to start flowing in several directions. It wil be going to the neutral light, the headlight, the tail light, the front running lights, the ignition system, the safety interlock system(s). The light in place of the fuse is going to light up as you have put it in series with all these other systems....and maybe some of the currentl will flow through the short and into the frame - but the lgiht where the fuse goes will not burn out. [/quote] Kinda depends on Where its put. If the thing was put in the line providing power to the starter, its gonna blow up. If its in series with a load thet drops voltage, then itll be dim, until there is a short around the load, then itll get bright.Probably only as bright as it would be in a lamp socket, All based on the SWAG method,, scientific wild assed guess,, |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by swedishbiker on 10/29/13 at 04:40:38 Many wild guesses, electrical seems to be difficult for many. You can't blow a bulb by shorting it to ground :) Just disconnect all at the junctions and start to examine all wires. Nothing, connect one by one. The resistance in the bulb makes it glow, fuse does not glow, they blow. What draws current when engine is off? Disconnect. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/29/13 at 09:08:56 You stick that sucker in line with something that draws big current & itll blow.. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by Dave on 10/30/13 at 08:42:57 425D5B5C41467747774F5D511A280 wrote:
I still don't believe that. You cannot create any bigger current draw than by providing a direct short.....that is the biggest current draw that exists as the resistance is basically zero. Anything you add inline will offer more resistance than a direct short. So when you connect a light bulb by putting both wires to a battery.....that is the most current flow that will ever occur through the bulb. Adding anything in the circuit will reduce the voltage and current flowing through the bulb. If I connect a 12 volt, 65 watt bulb to a battery, the bulb will light up and operate at 65 watts, 12 volts, 5.4 amps. If I now connnect a 12 volt starter in that circuit.....the light is going to operate at a few less watts and amps, and the starter is going to just sit there and do nothing as the resistance in the light will be limiting the current flow...and the starter will be sitting there stationary and running a small bit of current through the windings and generating a small bit of heat. I won't have time to do it this week - but I will wire a circuit up and check voltage drops across the bulb and starter.....and take pictures. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/30/13 at 20:49:43 Okay,,, take the hot wire off the battery, put the bulb in series, hit the starter,, |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by swedishbiker on 10/31/13 at 02:39:01 76696F6875724373437B69652E1C0 wrote:
And nothing else happens then the bulb light up. For all of you who don't understand this. Think about a hose, take a 1/4" hose from your tank and put a 1" hose at the end, how much gas will it flow? |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/31/13 at 03:37:22 The bulb becomes a fuse, the motor draws more current than it can handle & blows the bulb. I dont believe the resistance inside the bulb ( effectively zero) will slow the starter down, the starter will blow the bulb, unless it can carry the current of a starter motor. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by swedishbiker on 10/31/13 at 04:23:32 :) learn more about electricity. The bulb is a resistor. Only way to blow the bulb is more volts. A simple picture, starter is less then 1 ohm but close enough. 1.2 Volt is not enough for the starter :) but bulb will glow with 10.8 Volt. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/31/13 at 05:58:43 Resistors arent magic, bulbs measure zero ohms, go read one. I went to school in Biloxi for 9 months.,I didnt like it, I wasnt good at it, but Ive got enough sense to know I can draw more current thru a bulb than the filament will take, |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by swedishbiker on 10/31/13 at 06:09:34 How? |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/31/13 at 06:24:36 Go read a bulbs ohms, its zero,,pull more current thru it than it can take & it blows, like a fuse, like a flash bulb, heck, prove it to yourself, pull the wire offa the starter, put a bulb in series & hit the start button. Itll pop like a flash bulb, |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by swedishbiker on 10/31/13 at 06:55:47 697670776A6D5C6C5C64767A31030 wrote:
:) a light bulb is not zero ohm, if it was it would not glow. You should try with a better ohm meter. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by Dave on 10/31/13 at 07:31:12 The two equations we need to calcuate what is going to happen are: P = V x I.......Power (watts) = Voltage x Current R = V/I.........Resistance (ohms) = Voltage / Current So for a 65 watt, 12 volt bulb connected to a 12v Battery. P = V x I......P/V = I 65 watt/12v = 5.42 amps R = V/I.........12 volts/5.42 amps = 2.21 ohms I am not sure what the starter capacity is......but for this example lets assume the starter is 100 amp capacity. R=V/I......12volts / 100 amps = 0.12 ohms. So if we wire the 12v battery in a loop that includes the 65 watt bulb(2.21 ohms) with the 100 amp starter (0.12 ohms)....the circuit will provide a total of 2.33 ohms of resistance. R=V/I....IR=V.....I=V/R......I = 12 volts/2.33 ohms = 5.15 amps Therefore adding the starter into the circuit has decreased the current flowing through the light by (5.42 - 5.15 =) 0.27 amps. The voltage across the light and stationary starter are: R=V/I....V=IR..... Light = 5.15 amps x 2.21 ohms = 11.38 volts Starter = 5.15 amps x 0.12 ohms = 0.62 volts Total 12.00 volts The above example may be a bit flawed in that a 100 amp starter that is stationary may not have the same resistance that it does when operating.......but the math shows that the light will not blow up regardless. Anything that is wired in series with the light bulb will provide more resistance in the circuit, will reduce the amperage, and will reduce the voltage and current running through the light bulb. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/31/13 at 07:59:42 Well,, Youve got the numbers. Ive just got a gut feeling.. I had no idea an 1156 was a 65 watt bulb,, I wasnt talking headlight, I still think she'll blow a bulb up,,I just cant fathom drawing enough current thru that little filament to spin the starter & not cookin it,, |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by Dave on 10/31/13 at 08:05:54 6D7274736E6958685860727E35070 wrote:
An 1156 bulb is not 65 watt....more like 23 watts I believe. I used the 65 watt headlight bulb as the largest reasonable bulb to get as much current flowing as possible. Using a 1156 bulb would have made a smaller current and actually made less voltage across the starter. The starter will not spin......the light bulb is limiting the current flow and will not allow enough current to flow through the circuit. The starter is only getting 0.62 volts across it......it won't do anything with that small of voltage. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by verslagen1 on 10/31/13 at 08:39:23 A starter motor is not an electron pump. You can't pull more current thru the bulb than the battery can do by itself. besides resistance thru the starter motor, there's also impedance due to the coils. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/31/13 at 09:08:53 Well,, I dont have a bike to play with, but I do have a mower,, Im gonna try it, Im bettin even that puny little motor will draw more current than a bulb alone,, else why would such fat wires be needed for a starter? Starter wires a a good bit bigger than the wires to an 1156.. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by old_rider on 10/31/13 at 09:15:11 Not sure how the subject got askew, but... Isn't there a voltage regulator in the system? doesn't it regulate voltage for lower amped (wattage) items? hince smaller wires to different items. If his fuse is blowing, it means more than 15amps is going across it in the wire circuit, meaning I believe, there is a short from a higher amped item to a lower amped item on the 15amp fuse circuit. The thing is to find out were the short or arc is coming from. Is it coming from 2 or 3 wires crossing totaling more than 15amps? or is it coming from one wire crossing another totaling more than 15amps. Is there a wire bundle under the tank that can cause this? I'm looking at the cd that was put online but its a long process trying to find what is what for me. Just trying to help the OP, not in it for a discussion on electronics or confusing him on the subject... sorry don't mean to sound "short" ;D |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by Dave on 10/31/13 at 09:27:04 Old Rider: We got off track when discussing the use of a small light bulb in place of the fuse when testing. I believe the light will glow dimly most of the time.....but a dead short will make it glow at the normal amount of light. The Rectifier under the seat converts the AC current from the stator into DC power, and regulates the voltage to the proper 13.5 - 15 volts...or whatever is in the acceptable range. The fuses only regulate the maximum flow through the circuit and don't do anything during normal operation except allow the current to flow through them. If there is some form of excess current overload....then the fuse blows. The wiring harness under the tank connects to the left and right handlebar electrical controls, to the coil, to the decompression solenoid, to the horn, to the speedometer cluster, to the horn, headlights, front turn signals......lots of stuff. The most common break in this area is the left handlebar wiring harness into the headlight, and often it is associated with the failure of the headlight low or high beam.....or a short that blows fuses. The OP really needs to take the tank off and start looking at wires. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by old_rider on 10/31/13 at 09:38:04 Thanks Dave.... um, you said "horn" at one point in your statement, it reminds me I have to replace the horns on my pickup. At current time it sounds like herby the love bug, my wife laughs everytime she hears it..... |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by Dave on 10/31/13 at 10:12:30 I put the Hella Supertone horns on my Pontiac Vibe....and they work like a horn should work.....they get attention. Be sure you are getting the Hella models.....there are look alike horns that may/may not work like the original ones. The fakes say "Supertone" but do not say Hella. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hella-003399801-Supertone-Horn-Kit-12V-High-Tone-and-Low-Tone-/190928072250?pt=Other_Vehicle_Parts&hash=item2c74332e3a&vxp=mtr |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/31/13 at 10:47:59 Welll,, heres the deal,, I suspected I was wr, wro,, wr,, incorrect when I got all the ohms law stuff handed to me,, & LO & Behold,, the starter wont turn over with a 12volt bulb in series! Like I said, I went to school in Biloxi for 9 months being Taught electronics,, &, as stated, I Wasnt very good at it.. In fact, I barely avoided getting dumped into food services ( that was the threat they used to keep us motivated). I was sent to a base where there was NO equipment for me to work on,, I wasnt alone,, there was a staff sgt there, too.. same MOS, Nav Aids repair,, I was supposed to maintain Instrument Landing systems, vortacs, tacans & beacons,, but never touched one after tech school.. I learned enough to make a good copier & cash register repair guy some years later.. I DID absolutely ace the mechanics end of the entrance exam,, but they demanded I go into electronics, even tho I made the lowest score possible to qualify for that school.. Ohh MAN I wish they had made me a mechanic instead.. I think my military carreer woulda worked out a lot better & the jobs after woulda been much better.. Anyway,, after the starter wouldnt turn with the bulb in series, I decided that the bulb was dropping the Voltage enough it wouldnt kick the solenoid. I have a battery cut off on it ( somehow it drains the battery if itis not isolated, even w/ the key off,, &, Im Prittee sure its not the security sytem doin it! So, I got the bulb all in line ( parallel) & got the starter crankin over, unscrewed the cut out & expected the motor to draw thru & blow it,, UHHH, NO,, So,, While Ive discovered you guys are correct, I am sad to report I STILL dont "Get it"..& I imagine that some of you could stand here & explain it till I do, I just dont think Im gonna be able to get it if its just typed out.. If someone wants to give it a shot, I would welcome understanding it,I just dont wanna waste anyones time,, I am glad & thankful no one has gotten Uglee in the discussion thus far,, Saved me a good bit of embarrassment, fo SHO! & I was just soooo sure,, dangitt! :) Thanks for your patience guys,, I "get" loads of straight up nuts & bolts stuff,, but electrons & the rules they play by just arent my friends.. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by swedishbiker on 10/31/13 at 10:50:42 7C6365627F7849794971636F24160 wrote:
Do that, you will be surprised. Alone the starter draw a lot of power, thats why the fat wire. But with the bulb i serial it limits the current and no need for at fat wire :) but the starter will not turn. The only way you can draw more current is if you have the bulb parallel with the starter. So with the bulb instead of the fuse, he can't burn anything. And will see a short if the bulb lights up. Sure, he can't ride the bike, it would not start :) |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/31/13 at 11:07:35 Yes, to the above And I apologize for getting the thread off.. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by swedishbiker on 10/31/13 at 11:23:36 This is what happens with a bulb in the starter fuse. You can hear the solenoid click. http://youtu.be/JELIMtIa5dA |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/31/13 at 11:24:50 Yep,, Ive Seen,, Im just not understanding,, & That BUGS me! |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by Steve H on 10/31/13 at 13:08:24 JOG Think of the bulb as a flow restrictor. The heat generated by doing the work of resisting the flow causes it to glow. The resistance restricts the flow same as putting a flow restrictor in a water or air line. The restricted flow at the starter isn't strong enough to do the work required...Need a bigger line (less flow restriction). The fuse is a safety pop off valve. Too much and it pops to save whatever is downstream of it. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by verslagen1 on 10/31/13 at 13:17:44 Just a note of interest... the stock wiring to the starter has no fuse in it. Goes from the battery to the relay then to the starter. They figure if something blows up you'll take your finger off the button real quick. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by Dave on 10/31/13 at 14:09:12 Jog: Think of the starter as a really wide gate in a fence. When you have a crowd of people (electrons) all trying to get through that wide gate (starter) it allows a lot of them to pass through quickly (low resistance).....a lot of people (electrons) can get through the gate quickly (high amps). A bulb (narrow gate) provides more resistance (ohms) to the people (electrons) than the starter (wide gate) does. When you try to put those same people (electrons) though the smaller gate (bulb)....they get bunched up and irritated (heat and light), and not many of them get through quickly (low amps). When you put the starter (wide gate) in the path ( electric circuit) with the bulb (narrow gate)......the narrow gate (bulb) still restricts how many people (amps) can get through.....even though the wide gate (starter) offers little resistance (ohms). Does that help? |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by swedishbiker on 10/31/13 at 14:09:51 Right, starter has no fuse. But it will look same if you put a bulb serial. This is a Volvo starter, I bypass the solenoid. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/31/13 at 17:00:25 Thanks for all the input,,you guys made it work for me,, the lite is now lit in my head. I got 2 explanations, both worked for me, & the demo, while appreciated,, Ive done for myself in a sense,, Using water flow works in describing simple circuits, but the people thing seriously made sense,, Thanks guys,, & Now,, back to our regular programming.. I would rename the thread Power outrage.. |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by walker on 11/04/13 at 17:52:09 1A212C3B2A263D3B2028253A490 wrote:
Thank you! I really needed that encouragement to take it to the next level. I don't really have a background in anything besides changing oil on my Honda... so this was lots of fun (aside from the temporary despair and frustration). I followed clymer's manual and took the tank off. It was really stuck on the two little rubber pucks that hold it up. I almost just gave up, but at the last moment in a bit of anger I really started thrashing around with the tank and it just came free! I don't think it's ever been taken off since it was built in 2004. so for a moment I felt like a boss. I started looking at all the wires, I even cut open some of the black protector tubes... and everything was checking out. No burn marks. nothing out of place. With the tank disconnected and on the ground I put the key in the ignition and everything lit up. The bike even turned over, then I immediately turned it off-- vaccume tube, fuel line, and the California edition hose all disconnected, I didn't want to wreck anything. At this point I was nice and down again. "dude, I don't know what I'm doing.... but I'm at least I'm trying" I stepped over and started looking at the gas tank. I was almost finished chasing the wires in the cluster when I found the spot. Man I was happy. Heres a picture. basically I just cut out the burned part and re-spliced it and wrapped it in hella electrical tape. I also checked the other blue wire with color distortion, cutting through the plastic with a razor. The copper looked good so I wrapped it all up again. wrapped all the suspect wires with more vinyl and then wrapped them all together like the black tube I had to cut through. Put it all back together. BOOM! Back on the road! The gas feels old, but I'll ride through it in a week or so. thanks again everyone. I learned a lot about current and electricity and lightbulbs (and I'm very glad I didn't have to rely on my shoddy handle on it hahaha!) |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by walker on 11/04/13 at 17:54:39 spliced! |
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Title: Re: Power outage. Main fuse blowing Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/04/13 at 19:24:47 4C5355524F4879497941535F14260 wrote:
Glad ya finally got to doing the things ya hafta do to chase something like that down,, Thats spliced? Not really,, thats a mess. Get some crimp fittings or get some heat shrink tubing & solder it up. Tubing on the wire before it gets soldered,, solder it, slip the tubing into place, flick a bic at it.. |
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