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Message started by savagebob on 09/25/13 at 17:26:10

Title: Oil supply to head
Post by savagebob on 09/25/13 at 17:26:10

So I hear that the Savage has a weak oil supply to the head.

Has anyone thought about actually improving this other than just winding up the idle?

Maybe modifying the pump to increase pressure or adding an external oil pump?

just wondering

Title: Re: Oil supply to head
Post by Serowbot on 09/25/13 at 18:22:00

It's not a weak oil supply... the pump is strong enough to blow the side case if you install the oil filter backwards... (you don't want stronger)...
You just need to have the idle speed set at the speed it was designed to run...
1100rpm is not an unreasonable idle speed...

Title: Re: Oil supply to head
Post by verslagen1 on 09/25/13 at 18:25:21

yup, 5psi at idle, 50psi at full tilt.
you don't need more, you just need to set the idle where it's supposed to be.

Title: Re: Oil supply to head
Post by savagebob on 09/25/13 at 19:26:13

oh right, I was under the impression there were 'known oil supply issues' to the head. Keeping the idle up appeared to be a exercise in avoiding the problem rather than dealing with it directly.

But perhaps I got that wrong, it's not a oil supply issue at all rather it's a 'keep idle correct' issue.

Title: Re: Oil supply to head
Post by Oldfeller on 09/25/13 at 19:40:22

No Bob, it was an issue with a few newbies setting the idle WAY WAY WAY low trying to sound all "lumpy kewl" like a Harley ..... and murdering their Savage by doing so.

The root of this issue is the common Japanese practice of using raw aluminum head material to make the cam bearing journals. It requires a certain volume and pressure of proper weight oil to work at all -- and that occurs at a idle speed of 1,000-1,100 rpm at the min side.

This is a bup bup bup bup bup bup bup bup bup bup bup bup bup bup bup bup bup bup bup bup idle speed, not excessive by any guesstimate -- just never any slower than that.

Title: Re: Oil supply to head
Post by savagebob on 09/25/13 at 19:47:53

66454D4F4C45454C5B290 wrote:

The root of this issue is the common Japanese practice of using raw aluminum head material to make the cam bearing journals.

How common is that practice btw? Seems.. well.. seems kinda.. crap.
Does it mean that eventually the cam will actually wear out the head? Or is there essentially nothing wrong with it as long as it's looked after?

I've never come across cams just spinning in the head without bearings before and was astounded when I discovered this.

Title: Re: Oil supply to head
Post by Serowbot on 09/25/13 at 19:50:16

Keep the idle over 1k, and it can last 100k miles.. ;)...

Title: Re: Oil supply to head
Post by WD on 09/25/13 at 20:14:51

It's a modern (post 1969) manufacturing short cut. The cam bearings in my 1963 Honda 250 are huge. Great big caged ball bearings. It has 3 of them... One on each end and a center bearing, but, it is a 2 piece cam. Really easy to get out of phase if you don't pay attention during the install.

Even the bikes that metric owners love to hate (HD) have roller rockers, roller lifters, easily adjusted valves (self adjusting, hydraulic roller lifters on newer ones, adjustable pushrods on real ones)...

Entry level bikes (bargain basement throw away units) like the Savage, 600 Shadow, both sizes of Rebel, etc. are built to be tossed in favor of bigger and better within a year or two. So the factories switched to 1880s cam seats... think I'm kidding, cast in cam supports go back to the early days of steam, but had external oilers.

The cam really ought to ride in replaceable inserts like a car engine. Too much like right, keeps people on beginner bikes too long.

15W40 and a decent idle speed, they'll last at least 100k miles, the old forum one bike lasted well over 200K miles.

Title: Re: Oil supply to head
Post by Dave on 09/26/13 at 05:12:36

There are a lot of modern engines that have the cam riding directly in the aluminum castings. All lawn mower engines, a bunch of the overhead cam 4 cylinder car engines, most single cylinder motorcycles, and they all work fine until you run the engine low on oil or overheat them.

If you keep the oil topped up they go forever and usually something else wears out before the cam journals do.

Keep your idle where it should be, keep your oil topped up, use Rotella T or Rotella T-6.....and you won't have an issue.

Title: Re: Oil supply to head
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/26/13 at 06:59:53

Attaboooy Daaaaave!

Title: Re: Oil supply to head
Post by savagebob on 09/27/13 at 01:03:24

Rotella.. there is that mystery word again. Don't have that in New Zealand.. :( Still not sure what to use yet.. from looking around on here 'oil' looked like a topic best avoiding when your a n00b! :D

Title: Re: Oil supply to head
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/27/13 at 01:32:17

Its a very popular oil in the long haul diesel truck circles.,Made by Shell.
Maybe its called something else there. Call around to some diesel mechanics, see what they like.

Title: Re: Oil supply to head
Post by WD on 09/27/13 at 02:57:23

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2426403

Delo, Delvac, Rotella, whatever. HD engine oil. If it meets CJ4, run with it.

Title: Re: Oil supply to head
Post by Rix on 09/27/13 at 16:09:12

2A382F383E3C3B363B590 wrote:

[quote author=66454D4F4C45454C5B290 link=1380155170/0#4 date=1380163222]
The root of this issue is the common Japanese practice of using raw aluminum head material to make the cam bearing journals.

Title: Re: Oil supply to head
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/27/13 at 16:27:38

http://www.nndb.com/people/432/000023363/squiggy.jpg

PLenty of oil on this head