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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> Got bored with TV last night /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1379009858 Message started by Pine on 09/12/13 at 11:17:38 |
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Title: Got bored with TV last night Post by Pine on 09/12/13 at 11:17:38 so my second fav diversion is "TED Talks" ... mostly brainiacs talking about the latest idea or such. I ended up watching this video: http://www.ted.com/talks/chrystia_freeland_the_rise_of_the_new_global_super_rich.html Its all about how the 1% now owns a larger piece of the pie ( 20%)... as I listened I felt that her overall picture was not correct... or not complete. So her complaint was that if you drew a circle and said that's all the wealth in the USA and that 1% own 20%.. which is up from 1% owning 10% .. and that they are growing the fastest.. paying the least taxes.... blah blah blah... it just sounds awful.. and yeah I am jealous... unless your in the 1%.. then you probably are too... BUT.. then I got to thinking.. lets look at ONE example and really look at what happened.. So draw you a circle.. and mark off 20%. Now from within that circle pretend or draw... little arrows going from outside that 20% ( but within the circle) to in the 20%.. that's whats she's talking about. The circle is static and as the 20% grows the.. the 80% shrinks. HOW HORRIBLE!!!! But is that what happened?? This fellow that created Facebook... he is in the 1% easy. But did YOU pay for Facebook? how much money has HIS wealth cost you? So try this draw a circle... then draw another circle BUT make it 20% bigger... Now give that 20% to the 1%... now draw all the arrows from those that LOST money due to the "shrinking" 80%.. IF you did it right.. ZERO arrows. The 1% CREATED a bigger pie... they did not take from the pie that was. Do I really want laws to STOP/impeded the growth of the pie.. because the growth is not equitable? NO! As long as the pie grew, and I did not loose... then I do not want laws that stop growth. Now to be sure... not all of the 1% consist of those that "grew the pie", I would say for sure that Mitt Romney.. and his business... redistributed the wealth of corps they acquired and then sunk. This was repeated many times over by many "wall street sharks" of the 80's. Further, banks, and Wall Street itself, seems to "inflate" the pie and claim the "growth" for themselves. They then sell that "growth" until it goes poof... as it never was based on anything anyway. In the end, its all over my head and beyond my control. Would it be nice if the Middle class existed? Sure? Does it look like a return of the "bad ole days" when we really did have have and have nots.. kinda does. But the worst part is not just the decline of buying power... its the all out loss of moral fiber, the dog eat dog, get in there and kill for what you "need" attitude. Wheres that deserted island when you need it? ::) |
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Title: Re: Got bored with TV last night Post by WebsterMark on 09/12/13 at 11:52:21 It's not over your head at all Pine. You are spot on. Total available wealth is not a fixed amount. If it were, all we would have is what the first settlers brought with them. Wealth grows and expands. It's like eating a piece of pie and when you turn, around the remaining pie is larger than it was before. The Facebook guy did not take 10 billion dollars out of the pie, he expanded the pie by a 100 billion. |
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Title: Re: Got bored with TV last night Post by WebsterMark on 09/12/13 at 12:01:02 Now to be sure... not all of the 1% consist of those that "grew the pie", I would say for sure that Mitt Romney.. and his business... redistributed the wealth of corps they acquired and then sunk. This was repeated many times over by many "wall street sharks" of the 80's. Further, banks, and Wall Street itself, seems to "inflate" the pie and claim the "growth" for themselves. They then sell that "growth" until it goes poof... as it never was based on anything anyway. You're so close to "getting it", don't go backwards. Romney's firm HAS to create wealth, or it fails! Investment bankers grow the pie, take their cut and move on. They don't do anything different than you or I do when we buy a motorcycle from someone who needs the money, fix it up, and sell it for a profit. Don't fall into the class warfare trap. As was pointed out over and over, Romney bought out Staples before it went out of business, turned it around and sold it. Today, thousands have jobs, Romney made money and the pie is bigger than it would have been if Romney had left it alone. Staples was a "junky motorcycle" that someone who knew what they were doing was going to have to risk their money to see if they could get it running and sell it. |
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Title: Re: Got bored with TV last night Post by Serowbot on 09/13/13 at 09:24:30 It's nice and simple to think of this 20% as a balloon, that expands in all directions,... but it isn't... It's more a pile,.. and those with the bulldozer shovel it in the direction that puts you further away from it, and them closer to it... Not only have the rich gotten richer... the poor and middle class have gotten poorer... If minimum wage were at 1960's rates,... it would be over $16hr.... ... and when Romney bought dying businesses, and filed/declared them bankrupt,... it took away the retirements and benefits from 1,000's of long time employees, and flushed them... he also got government bailout money to bring them back...(That was your money)...(that is your debt)... Instead of a balloon intersecting the pie,... draw a shotgun blast firing 20% of everything away from the pie... ;D... |
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Title: Re: Got bored with TV last night Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/13/13 at 10:59:26 I worked with a guy whose wife had 18 or 19 years with theTexas unemployment office. They renamed it. Her pension went away,., |
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Title: Re: Got bored with TV last night Post by Paraquat on 09/13/13 at 11:13:34 That's some great sleight of hand. --Steve |
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Title: Re: Got bored with TV last night Post by verslagen1 on 09/13/13 at 11:21:55 716E686F72754474447C6E62291B0 wrote:
Let's rename the congress and the senate... no more pension for them either. |
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Title: Re: Got bored with TV last night Post by WebsterMark on 09/13/13 at 13:05:46 It's nice and simple to think of this 20% as a balloon, that expands in all directions,... but it isn't... It's more a pile,.. and those with the bulldozer shovel it in the direction that puts you further away from it, and them closer to it... "Bitter, party of one, your table's ready; Bitter, party of one, your table's ready" |
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Title: Re: Got bored with TV last night Post by Serowbot on 09/13/13 at 15:42:29 360403121504132C00130A610 wrote:
..and when they take away your pension,.. You'll still be kissin' their ass?... :-?.. You're one of those,.. "everything's okay until it happens to you"... types... It's not bitter to be angry when your life's work is taken away... |
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Title: Re: Got bored with TV last night Post by WebsterMark on 09/13/13 at 18:34:31 Micro vs macro. The pie IS bigger, that's not an arguable point. Capitalism has worked "macro-wise" extremely we'll. there are always individual cases of misfortune. I would argue we have more cases like this because people have been taught to trust government rather than taking more responsibility for themselves and their families. |
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Title: Re: Got bored with TV last night Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/14/13 at 17:08:36 3E2D3A3B24292F2D2679480 wrote:
Let's rename the congress and the senate... no more pension for them either.[/quote] I renamed them years ago.. Somehow I just dont see them goin along with chosen name for them.,,. |
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Title: Re: Got bored with TV last night Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/14/13 at 17:11:49 4C7E79686F7E69567A69701B0 wrote:
Well,, couple that with Nafta, the engineered deindustrialization of america & the destruction of our schools engineered also with crony capitalism & criminal banksters, yea, the average schmuck is Takin a POUNDIN,, |
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Title: Re: Got bored with TV last night Post by Pine on 09/16/13 at 08:35:15 I rather like how this thread turned out!!! Another idea ... So lets say that the bulk of the new 20% that the 1% control is mostly "pie growth" ie they are not taking from the 99%, but it is new wealth that is now not evenly spread. Now devalue ALL the wealth... it would be similar to shrinking the pie,, but the pie doesn't shrink.. it just takes more wealth to buy the same stuff. The devalued wealth is REAL, it is a form of taxation, and it goes to the federal government for re-distribution. This is where I think the middle class has really lost. Its not that we don't make more money, its that the money we make either we cant keep or it purchases less. But The rich didn't do it to us... the government did. But it looks like the rich did better because they simply have so much more. |
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Title: Re: Got bored with TV last night Post by pgambr on 09/16/13 at 15:51:28 Don't forget inflation. Gas is $3.50 a gallon for the cheap stuff and mild was $4.13 a gallon as well. |
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Title: Re: Got bored with TV last night Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/16/13 at 17:01:57 I can buy a gallon of gas for a quarter& Get CHANGE Back! You see,, our Currency is losing value.. MONEY is holding on,, Using the latest metal prices and the specifications above, these are the numbers required to calculate melt value: $21.78 = silver price / ounce on Sep 16, 2013. .90 = silver % $3.2026 = copper price / pound on Sep 16, 2013. .10 = copper % 6.25 = total weight in grams .0321507466 = ounce/gram conversion factor .00220462262 = pound/gram conversion factor (see note directly below) The CME uses pounds to price copper and that means we need to multiply the metal price by .00220462262 to make the conversion to grams. The silver price is based in troy ounces and that means we need to multiply the metal price by .0321507466 to make the conversion to grams. 1. Calculate 90% silver value : (21.78 × .0321507466 × 6.25 × .90) = $3.9388683428 $3.9388 is the rounded silver value for the 1932-1964 silver quarter on September 16, 2013. This is usually the value used by coin dealers when selling these coins at melt value. However, the total melt value is continued below. 2. Calculate 10% copper value : (3.2026 × .00220462262 × 6.25 × .10) = $0.0044127 3. Add the two together : $3.9388683428 + $0.0044127 = $3.9432810428 $3.9432810428 is the total melt value for the 1932-1964 silver quarter on September 16, 2013. Silver Coin Calculator [ch8592] Calculate coin worth using your own quantity and silver price values. |
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Title: Re: Got bored with TV last night Post by Pine on 09/17/13 at 05:49:49 7A6D6B6768780A0 wrote:
The "devaluation of money " IS inflation. |
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Title: Re: Got bored with TV last night Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/17/13 at 19:22:35 WeHAVE No Money,, we have currency, |
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Title: Re: Got bored with TV last night Post by pgambr on 09/17/13 at 20:17:31 655C5B50415A47350 wrote:
The "devaluation of money " IS inflation. [/quote] I was trying to strengthen your argument. Please refer to the previous post: "devaluation of wealth." I consider their to be a difference between wealth & money. |
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Title: Re: Got bored with TV last night Post by Trippah on 09/17/13 at 20:36:42 There have been two well intentioned tax changes of major significance The inheritance tax trigger point was moved way up "to protect our struggling farmers" who were "land rich but money poor"; and secondly, in the land of innovation and make it on your own pull yourself up by your bootstraps, earned income (reported on W-2 and 1099 etc) is taxed at higher rates than capital gains ( you risked your money but didn't work at whatever the company did to earn money). The surprising uptake is that all the wealthy pass on a much greater percent of their wealth to their offspring with reduced taxes AND, those that have the money to risk (that is don't spend all their money on clothes, food, shelter and transportation but have some or lots left over to invest) pay a lower percent on their gains after taking out the losses (you know, like workers take out their commuting and uniform expenses)ho ho ho. That's also the great internal redistribution of wealth (yeah, why are the republicans complaining??) and the second redistribution of wealth is from Europe and the US to the middle east oil countries which helps fund all those happy jihadist. It dwarfs the redistribution of wealth to Asia as Asia becomes a manufacturing/tech center. That will, however, become the third great redistribution of wealth. It is a wonderful world. |
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Title: Re: Got bored with TV last night Post by Pine on 09/18/13 at 06:24:32 4651575B5444360 wrote:
The "devaluation of money " IS inflation. [/quote] I was trying to strengthen your argument. Please refer to the previous post: "devaluation of wealth." I consider their to be a difference between wealth & money.[/quote] Ahh missed that.. 8-) |
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Title: Re: Got bored with TV last night Post by WebsterMark on 09/18/13 at 06:32:29 I read this today and remembered this thread...... Give Back? Yes, It's Time For The 99% To Give Back To The 1% Harry Binswanger It’s time to gore another collectivist sacred cow. This time it’s the popular idea that the successful are obliged to “give back to the community.” That oft-heard claim assumes that the wealth of high-earners is taken away from “the community.” And beneath that lies the perverted Marxist notion that wealth is accumulated by “exploiting” people, not by creating value–as if Henry Ford was not necessary for Fords to roll off the (non-existent) assembly lines and Steve Jobs was not necessary for iPhones and iPads to spring into existence. Let’s begin by stripping away the collectivism. “The community” never gave anyone anything. The “community,” the “society,” the “nation” is just a number of interacting individuals, not a mystical entity floating in a cloud above them. And when some individual person–a parent, a teacher, a customer–”gives” something to someone else, it is not an act of charity, but a trade for value received in return. It was from love–not charity–that your mother fed you, bought clothes for you, paid for your education, gave you presents on your birthday. It was for value received that your teachers worked day in and day out to instruct you. In commercial transactions, customers buy a product not to provide alms to the business, but because they want the product or service–want it for their own personal benefit and enjoyment. And most of the time they get it, which is why they choose to continue patronizing the same businesses. All proper human interactions are win-win; that’s why the parties decide to engage in them. It’s not the Henry Fords and Steve Jobs who exploit people. It’s the Al Capones and Bernie Madoffs. Voluntary trade, without force or fraud, is the exchange of value for value, to mutual benefit. In trade, both parties gain. Each particular individual in the community who contributed to a man’s rise to wealth was paid at the time–either materially or, as in the case of parents and friends, spiritually. There is no debt to discharge. There is nothing to give back, because there was nothing taken away. Well, maybe there is–in the other direction. The shoe is on the other foot. It is “the community” that should give back to the wealth-creators. It turns out that the 99% get far more benefit from the 1% than vice-versa. Ayn Rand developed the idea of “the pyramid of ability,” which John Galt sets forth in Atlas Shrugged: “When you live in a rational society, where men are free to trade, you receive an incalculable bonus: the material value of your work is determined not only by your effort, but by the effort of the best productive minds who exist in the world around you. When you work in a modern factory, you are paid, not only for your labor, but for all the productive genius which has made that factory possible: for the work of the industrialist who built it, for the work of the investor who saved the money to risk on the untried and the new, for the work of the engineer who designed the machines of which you are pushing the levers, for the work of the inventor who created the product which you spend your time on making . . . In proportion to the mental energy he spent, the man who creates a new invention receives but a small percentage of his value in terms of material payment, no matter what fortune he makes, no matter what millions he earns. But the man who works as a janitor in the factory producing that invention, receives an enormous payment in proportion to the mental effort that his job requires of him. And the same is true of all men between, on all levels of ambition and ability. The man at the top of the intellectual pyramid contributes the most to all those below him, but gets nothing except his material payment, receiving no intellectual bonus from others to add to the value of his time. The man at the bottom who, left to himself, would starve in his hopeless ineptitude, contributes nothing to those above him, but receives the bonus of all of their brains. Such is the nature of the ‘competition’ between the strong and the weak of the intellect. Such is the pattern of ‘exploitation’ for which you have darned the strong. For their enormous contributions to our standard of living, the high-earners should be thanked and publicly honored. We are in their debt. Here’s a modest proposal. Anyone who earns a million dollars or more should be exempt from all income taxes. Yes, it’s too little. And the real issue is not financial, but moral. So to augment the tax-exemption, in an annual public ceremony, the year’s top earner should be awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor. Imagine the effect on our culture, particularly on the young, if the kind of fame and adulation bathing Lady Gaga attached to the more notable achievements of say, Warren Buffett. Or if the moral praise showered on Mother Teresa went to someone like Lloyd Blankfein, who, in guiding Goldman Sachs toward billions in profits, has done infinitely more for mankind. (Since profit is the market value of the product minus the market value of factors used, profit represents the value created.) Instead, we live in a culture where Goldman Sachs is smeared as “a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity.” That’s for the sin of successful investing, channeling savings to their most productive uses, instead of wasting them on government boondoggles like Solyndra and bridges to nowhere. There is indeed a vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity: the Internal Revenue Service. And, at a deeper level, it is the monstrous perversion of justice that makes the IRS possible: an envy-ridden moral code that darns success, profit, and earning money in voluntary exchange. An end must be put to the inhuman practice of draining the productive to subsidize the unproductive. An end must be put to the primordial notion that one’s life belongs to the tribe, to “the community,” and that the superlative wealth-creators must do penance for the sin of creating value. And Ayn Rand is just the lady who can do it. |
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Title: Re: Got bored with TV last night Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/18/13 at 06:44:33 nstead, we live in a culture where Goldman Sachs is smeared as “a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity.” That’s for the sin of successful investing, channeling savings to their most productive uses, instead of wasting them on government boondoggles like Solyndra and bridges to nowhere. Goldman Sachs is rightly labeled as “a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity. Crony Capitalism,, legalized theft.. |
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Title: Re: Got bored with TV last night Post by Pine on 09/18/13 at 07:12:03 736C6A6D70774676467E6C602B190 wrote:
Agreed... the idea that its not a sin to be wealthy .. I agree with!. But the example of Sachs as an innocent and fair trader??? silly. |
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Title: Re: Got bored with TV last night Post by Midnightrider on 09/18/13 at 15:15:13 Henry Ford and Steve Jobs deserved everything they made. They created products that revolutionalised the world and made it better. Goldman Sachs lie, stole and cheated to get what they have, stealing money out of our pockets.Their upper management should be in prison. They have created or produced nothing useful. The last two idiot presidents should never have bailed them out along with several other firms. Our idiotic government bailed criminals out and handed us the bill. If someone invent's produces, manufactures something that will revolutionalise the world like solar and wind power that will work! I have no problem with them not paying taxes. They've made the world a better cleaner place. Wall St firms are crooks and bullsh!tters and should be left to drown in their own sh!t. Capitaliisation is more about stealing now than creating and producing and making the world a better place When a company like Apple or Ford makes the community a better place we give back by purchasing their product. |
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Title: Re: Got bored with TV last night Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/18/13 at 16:03:31 Well,, Webster,, seems like youre in the minority in your appreciation for Goldman Sux. |
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Title: Re: Got bored with TV last night Post by Midnightrider on 09/18/13 at 16:23:46 Webster if you believe so strong in capitalism believe in someone like Henry Ford or Steve Jobs who made the world a better place. Banking firms take a great percentage more than they give, you should know that. I wish you good health from now on and forever but if you ever have to make a credit card payment late because of piled up medical bills you'll find out who you're really worshiping. |
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Title: Re: Got bored with TV last night Post by WebsterMark on 09/19/13 at 05:33:37 A little clarification is in order: I'm not some huge Ann Ryn fan. I do think her ideas have some merit. I just thought the article fit this thread. Took me 10 years to read that darn Atlas book! Started it several times but my God that woman takes 20 sentences to make a single point..... I'm not a "fan" of Goldman, I just doubt they are some evil monster you make them out to be. I don't think "rich" cheat any more or less often than the average person does. Obviously their pocketbook is about a million (billion times) bigger than mine. I just saw some article the silly Obama phone giveaway is loaded with fraud. Other than scale, what makes some dude ripping off Uncle Sam to get a free cell any different than some Goldman execut ripping off UncleSam? I am fortunately not"blessed" with the class warfare gene that seems to run rampant on here. |
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Title: Re: Got bored with TV last night Post by WebsterMark on 09/19/13 at 05:48:44 Webster if you believe so strong in capitalism believe in someone like Henry Ford or Steve Jobs who made the world a better place. Banking firms take a great percentage more than they give, you should know that. I wish you good health from now on and forever but if you ever have to make a credit card payment late because of piled up medical bills you'll find out who you're really worshiping. If you think investment bankers didn't make the world a better place, you might want to rethink that. You think your heroes Jobs and Ford didn't need banks to "make the world a better place"? Who made more; Jobs and Ford or the early investors? And I'm more than a little offended over the worshipping comment. I don't worship money or people. I just know the lifestyle I have, and the rest of the world has for the most part, is due to US capitalism. Honestly man, get rid of your rich guy hatred. Let it go. I'm glad you don't wish ill will on me (but you say that so often I'm beginning to doubt your sincerity) but If I end up in a bad financial spot, it's my fault, isn't it? Who else could I blame at this point? |
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Title: Re: Got bored with TV last night Post by Midnightrider on 10/01/13 at 02:38:44 Web things happen beyond your control and you could be wiped out overnight. You could blame it on the government if the Chinese copy your product and export it over here at a cheaper price. Its not your fault. I don't know if anyone works for you but it would do away their jobs also and its the goverments fault. We cant be chained to a post and put to work when we're 8 years old and there's no way we can compete because our patents are no good over there. We should never have started trading with the Chinese.They mistreat workers, women and children and its wrong. Ifwere're supposed to be the worlds keeper why are we importing their products when they're being made under terrible inhuman conditions..We are the largest wheat and corn producer in the world. Why cant we raise the price of our food we export to the middle east when they raise the price of oil. That's only fair and good business. Or better yet start minding our own dam business and screw the rest of the world. I wish you and everyone on this forum good health but I'll quit if it offends you. It's 5 in the morning and I'm hurting so bad I cant sleep. Havent been to bed and I hope something like that never happens to you but like I said before if you're offended I'll stop. Have a good day and God bless you some more. |
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