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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> We have to stand up! /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1376883139 Message started by Midnightrider on 08/18/13 at 20:32:19 |
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Title: We have to stand up! Post by Midnightrider on 08/18/13 at 20:32:19 You might want to sit down. Earlier this week, the Business Roundtable — a trade association made up of the CEOs of giant corporations — sent a letter to Congress. What do they want to do? Increase the eligibility age for Medicare. Make access to Medicare dependent on income. “Modernize” — a.k.a. privatize — Medicare. In other words, the millionaires who run the largest corporations on Earth want to slash the social insurance programs the rest of us rely on. You know what — never mind what I said about sitting down. We have to stand up. We have to stand up for the basic protections that have kept generations of Americans from living out their lives in sickness and poverty. We have to stand up to people who have more money than they could ever need yet still want to squeeze even more from those who have never had enough. At Public Citizen, we’re fighting not only to preserve Medicare, but to improve and expand it into the universal, single-payer health insurance system our nation needs to make the ideal of health care as a human right the reality for every American. Stand up to corporate greed — and help us keep doing critical work like fighting for single-payer, improved and expanded Medicare-for-all health insurance — with a donation to Public Citizen right now. The Business Roundtable’s leadership consists of CEOs from AT&T, Boeing, Dow Chemical, Exxon Mobil, General Electric, JPMorgan, Walmart and other mega-corporations. What do they know about what it’s like to worry if you can retire with dignity and security? You know the facts: The United States is practically alone among developed nations in adhering to an immoral (and ineffective) for-profit health insurance regime. 48.6 million Americans — almost one of every six of us — is uninsured. 45,000 Americans a year — 123 a day — die because they don’t have health insurance. The private health insurance industry eats up $350 billion a year in administrative costs, waste and profits. A single-payer, Medicare-for-all system would cut drug prices by 40% or more. Inflated medical bills are the number one cause of personal bankruptcies in the United States. The majority of doctors and the American people support a single-payer, Medicare-for-all system. With your help, we can make sure that the facts — not the propaganda of corporate lobbyists like the Business Roundtable — shape our nation’s response to the disgraceful tragedy that is the private, for-profit health insurance establishment. |
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Title: Re: We have to stand up! Post by Serowbot on 08/18/13 at 21:28:11 I'm sitting,.. standing... ...sitting,... uhhh,..standing... I'm with ya'... |
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Title: Re: We have to stand up! Post by WD on 08/18/13 at 21:32:35 I've lived in Europe, we're way past overdue for quality, affordable, realistic healthcare. I still have and display Skatergirl's ribbons and bracelets. IBC is a stone cold killer, but her last months should not have been spent losing her job, her home and everything else she held dear to save a private insurer from paying out. >:( |
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Title: Re: We have to stand up! Post by Serowbot on 08/18/13 at 22:09:22 This is most encouraging... I do consider both WD and Midnight to be conservative in principal... (but, obviously not sheep)... It is time,... and it is an issue that everyone should be able to find some measure of commonality... You shouldn't need to be a millionaire, to survive a serious illness without going bankrupt and losing everything... ...and, a person fighting for their life,.. shouldn't have a dining table overflowing with bills foremost in their mind... And death, shouldn't take everything you've worked and saved for with you... There are people in this struggle today,.. that are wishing they could die faster,.. so that their spouses, and families won't lose all they have sacrificed to leave for them... I remember Skatergirl too... and she had a job, and health insurance... got sick, got fired, lost her insurance, and her home,.. and her life... This is an almost uniquely, American experience... Seems like, protecting families,... and respecting dignity in life and death,... and all that people have have worked their entire lives for,.. would be a conservative ideal... but it ain't... It's not good for profits... It's not a topic of universal agreement,.. but it does cross some divides... Peace, Serow |
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Title: Re: We have to stand up! Post by Pine on 08/19/13 at 06:22:26 3F293E233B2E23384C0 wrote:
I guess there are millionairs and then theres really rich people. Cause even millionaiers cant afford the current system. Case in point: A coworkers brother-in-law was/is a surgeon.. in CA.. and very well off. He got brain cancer. So did what everyone does, he went through the system, got tests, got diagnoses, got treatment. Things were not looking good. Bills racked up, but he paid them. But he could not work... so he could not earn and the zero income and mega outflow... could not go on indefinitely.. yet that seemed to be where he was headed. He applied for benefits and was turned down. They said that while he could not work in his profession, he could work... say at McDonalds. At that point he started calling markers. He got short-listed on a research program that insurance would not pay... so he paid. It worked. He's "cured enough" to go back to work as a surgeon. Which is good as he was pretty much wiped out financially. This was several years ago.. probably 2006.. co-work has moved on, so I have not heard any recent news. I agree the system is broke. Other horror stories abound. My neighbor, nearly lost their house. The husband had bad diabetes and got too bad for her to care for him at home. So what happens then. They could not afford to put him in a nursing home.. not at $3000 per month. But in order to get the government to pay... the one going in has to be destitute. What about the spouse? She has to be destitute as well? When we moved, they were still going through the dance of paying for in-home care... and watching their bank account empty out. And then there is my own mother. My sister told me that I scared the hell out of her. ( certainly not my intention) My mom was a school teacher, she has a $200k house ( patio home) and really nothing else. Gets gets her retirement, and has state insurance( $800/month come out of her monthly check). I told her long ago to spend down her money. She wanted to leave a little some to the grandkids. I said it aint gonna happen. At some point if we are lucky, she will live long enough to go into a nursing home. At that point the government will take everything... Mom is 79 and still at home, near blind.. cant drive... in fear of falling. I do her shopping each week. My son does her yardwork. But theres pleanty of other common practice that I completely disagree with: If you have insurance, the hospital and insurance contract for a low price. But if you don't have insurance you pay "full price" except "full price" includes the cost of those that might not pay.. so its really full price plus. That's were you get $5 Tylenol. One hospital here was taken to court... the name of the hospital St. Dominics.. you know a Catholic hospital. IT seems they had adopted a policy of turning over any patients to a collection agency on day one, if the patient did not have insurance. You could be a billionaire.. didn't matter, policy was to turn over the account on day one. They did get slammed for that. Unfortunately... the list of problems is much longer than the list of solutions. Trust is my biggest issue. |
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Title: Re: We have to stand up! Post by WD on 08/19/13 at 06:53:23 My mother in law died in 1995 of "inoperable " brain cancer. My father in law has an almost $4k/month retirement income, but Shirley's cancer almost wiped them out. To the tune of the moneys from shrinking the farm (235 acres down to 54, satellites properties all gone as well save one) are gone. Multimillionaire to... not even close. The ancient one is going to be 88 in November. We moved back here so he could stay in his home and work his remaining farm until his body goes to the medical school. WW2 combat veteran, biggest plumbing/hvac contractor in the South from right after WW1 (father's company) until 1964, former county government member, former spokesman and troubleshooter for the plastic pipe industry. Hate PVC/CPVC, blame him... Lisa and I do better on her $1200/month disability income than he is doing 18 years after his wife died. Medical bills and burial costs in this country are out of control. I have a job interview this afternoon, we need the income to help keep the place afloat until harvest, which looks to be decent this year. |
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Title: Re: We have to stand up! Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/19/13 at 07:41:00 While I certainly don't doubt the truth of these stories of financial troubles, I guess I don't understand them. We have a very good couple of friends ( a married couple ). The guy has a job, and has normal Anthem Blue Cross/Blue Shield insurance for himself and his wife. Their plan is a fairly good one - not the best, but not the cheapest. Their max out of pocket expense is $4,000 per year, per person, for all co-pays and deductibles. Insurance pays from day one, and whatever co-pays or deductibles apply go toward the $4,000 max out of pocket per year. The wife was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer early last year, had two operations, and 6 chemo treatments. Both operations were major surgery, and I know that chemo treatments aren't cheap. All they had to personally pay was the $4,000 out of pocket for all of that in 2012, and insurance paid all of the rest, without question and without hassle. Now they may have another max of $4,000 for 2013, but so far, the lady is doing fine with no signs of recurrent cancer yet, about a year and a half after the first diagnosis. So, seriously, why is this couple so much better off than the folks about whom these other stories all told? The insurance was no different as I see it, and our friends aren't rich. $4,000 per year is a bit of a struggle for them, but it's manageable. |
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Title: Re: We have to stand up! Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/19/13 at 07:46:11 Further, I am all in favor of raising the age for Medicare and for full SS benefits too. When I hit age 65 last year, I had to sign up for Medicare, even though I work full time+, practicing law and managing two other small businesses. Why should I have to go on Medicare? I would prefer to just keep on going like I have for all of my life, with private insurance covering me. The same with SS benefits - this year I hit age 66, my full retirement age, so I could collect my full SS benefit without any reductions from my normal earnings. Why does it make sense? With modern life expectancies climbing every year, age 66 is just too young to start collecting if you are healthy and able to work. Just raising it a year or two more would solve all of the problems with SS running out of money. |
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Title: Re: We have to stand up! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/19/13 at 08:02:16 Jerry, first, Wahooo! Youre still in good shape! Not everyone is. Skatergirl was fired, so, her income dropped, she had insurance thru her employer, shes fired, Wheres the insurance now/.\? In hospital, no job, no insurance,, you do the math, |
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Title: Re: We have to stand up! Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/19/13 at 08:14:22 JOG - When she lost her job and was sick, did she keep her insurance thru COBRA? I think she could have. While COBRA premiums are higher, it's still a lot better than going bare of all coverage. Lots of unknowns here - if she couldn't pay the premium, could/did family members kick in a little to make it happen? We all have to remember that Obamacare isn't free, and I have yet to see the benefit of it compared to what we've had all of these years, since about the mid 1950s. |
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Title: Re: We have to stand up! Post by WD on 08/19/13 at 08:31:00 Jerry, many major insurers won't allow you to COBRA your insurance if they know you have major medical issues. I had to fight them on my insurance when I was off work for 3 months with a broken shoulder, had coverage through the company, was technically still employed, but had to temporarily COBRA my coverage as I was unable to do my job. Ending up costing me a motorcycle in order to keep my home. House payment or health insurance, or sacrifice something to make both... I was one of the company's highest grossing drivers, but as soon as I was laid up, basically kicked to the curb. My father in law lost so much because the bills not covered by SS or private insurance were out of pocket. That's how it was done down here in the 90s, even today, Lisa gets bills from her doctors, and she's on full medical disability. Healthcare in Dixie is decades behind the rest of the country, except in cost. |
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Title: Re: We have to stand up! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/19/13 at 08:40:40 626D616B606D666A6D7A6F6D7A080 wrote:
REALLY, Jerry? She was FIRED & sick,, How was she gonna make the payments? |
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Title: Re: We have to stand up! Post by WD on 08/19/13 at 08:54:42 Not advocating Obamacare, which is a farce. I'd like to see us with more of an English, German, Spanish national health care system. Reasonable fees for good treatment. When I lived in Spain, anybody could go to the clinic or hospital and get low cost, decent care, no strings attached. |
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Title: Re: We have to stand up! Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/19/13 at 08:59:45 WD - Sorry, I can't agree. I know many Canadians who keep private insurance and who won't sue their national system; same with a few of my clients at Lloyds in London. My basic problem with a national system is quality of hospitals. I like having the best in the world, like Mayo, Cedar Sinai, OSU's James Cancer Hospital, MD Anderson at Univ. of Texas, and several others that are so far above the national average. I have never seen a gov't program result in excellence in anything, except for our Armed Forces. |
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Title: Re: We have to stand up! Post by srinath on 08/19/13 at 09:08:43 4251150 wrote:
Republicans killed this ... its was called government take over ... they mandated all the rest of the crap making Obamacare a farce ... and then now they are railing against that ... Basically they put in the crap, and they are complaining against the crap they inserted in ... Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: We have to stand up! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/19/13 at 09:15:42 I believe a fact finding mission would show insurance companies wrote most of it, IIRC, Pelosi said You cant KNOW whats in it till you pass it. Now, If YOUR Lawyer signed a contract that YOU would have to make good & Had NOT Read it,, do you not see that as wrong? It was WRONG to pass it, That so many fail to grasp that simple PRINCIPLE is part of whats wrong in murca |
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Title: Re: We have to stand up! Post by Midnightrider on 08/19/13 at 09:49:47 757A767C777A717D7A6D787A6D1F0 wrote:
Jerry when I was able to work I had to pick up over 10,000 lbs a day. Most of the people that retire from my company are crippled with all kinds of medical problems. You worked hard for what you have and I've always will admire you for what you've done but the human body will only take so much physical labor. Not many people can pick up 10,000 lbs a day at 66. You were griping about school teachers and I agree, their job is not physical. It depends on the job. My wife got burnt out being a cop and she retired after 20 years. She works part time in law enforcement now but that's all she can take. Eveyones circumstances are not the same. That's my point. |
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Title: Re: We have to stand up! Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/19/13 at 10:22:53 Midnight - That's why I said I'm in favor of raising the age IF a person is healthy and able to work. For those who aren't, then that's a different matter. We have to remember that when SS was introduced in the early 1930s, the life expectancy was about the same as retirement age, 65. I guess you could look at SS then as somewhat of a scam - you weren't expected to live long enough to get much, if anything, in benefits. Today is much different. While there are still jobs like you had, the percentage of jobs requiring physical labor to a major degree has fallen dramatically since the 1930s. Today we are a service economy to the largest degree - more workers have desk jobs than ever before. But we haven't adjusted SS to account for these major shifts in the work force, and in life expectancy. To just "keep on keeping on" and paying out full benefits at age 66 will bankrupt the system, especially since Medicare was added in the 1960s. So, for people afflicted with the effects of a life of physical labor, and for those whose jobs demand a higher degree of fitness, like police and firefighters, I'm all for leaving things as they are. But for the rest of us who basically sit on our cans all day, and whose greatest work effort is picking up a pen or a phone handset, we've got to recognize reality and bump up the retirement age, but just a little. Most of what I've read says that just a year or two increase would solve the problem entirely, even though life expectancy now is at least 10 to 12 years longer than in the 1930s. |
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Title: Re: We have to stand up! Post by Pine on 08/19/13 at 10:59:07 Jerry, all excellent posts: My mother ( and I and my wife for that matter) are all insured by BC/BS of MS... pretty normal ins. As far as I can tell, mom has rather normal medical ( monthly) costs for someone her age. Some medicines are simply not covered by ins.. and some are covered but at a reduced rate, for various reasons.. the same pain we all deal with. I do know one of the "big costs" was hitting the "donut hole" each year. It amounts to being uninsured for about two months. http://healthinsurance.about.com/od/medicare/a/understanding_part_d.htm The donut hole amounts to $1710 ( per the URL above). She usually hits it about April of each year. So between the $9600/yr BC?BS premium, the $1710 donut, plus all the drug costs and doctor costs and testing costs (doctors have her tested yearly regardless of condition), I suspect greater than 80% of her retirement just goes to such. As to raising the retirement age. 1, 2 or even 3 or 4 years.. no biggie. But suspect, that is not the plan .. again.. my distrust. The plan is to raise it... then raise it... then raise it... kinda like postage stamps. As to "living longer" ... there is a caveat to that and figuring the right age. The "average" age that American's reach has been going, and to be sure has gone a lot since 1950. But that average includes (it always does) infant mortality. So the truth is we aren't really living all that much longer... just those that died at birth/infancy/child age.. has gone down dramatically. This has the effect of raising the average life expectancy. Other things do as well, decreased smoking has helped. My mother is the youngest of NINE children. Of the five brothers, all are dead. None made it past 70. Its the curse of the "Elmore" heart. Bad tickers.. I suspect I will die before age 70 as well. The girls last a bit longer. My mom, barely eats... and what she eats.... blech: oatmeal, prunes, brown rice, tuna, black beans, whey, some fresh fruit and veggie... never any red meat.. or pork, chicken on holidays.. if we come visit. I do want the system to continue, and the numbers have it as broken, mostly NOT because are living longer, but because it is at its root a pyramid scheme that is crashing. The money I have paid in all my live was never meant for me .. it was use by those needing it now. My money is to come from those that follow me... The problem is .. as a boomer.. theres a whole lot of us and very few after. So while my mothers parents had nine kids paying into the system to support them..each of those 9 only had at most 3 paying in to support them, and generally just the 2. Multiply by the entire country. Scheme is upside down. :-/ |
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Title: Re: We have to stand up! Post by Dane Allen on 08/19/13 at 12:29:23 As I read through these it is interesting to note the problems all seem to be catastrophic illness but Obamacare has installed the "death panels" to control costs, thus ensuring these people will be denied coverage. Obamacare does not help these people, wastes tons of money and greatly damages our healthcare system. What could have been done is a catastrophic illness coverage that would have cost a 1/50th of the Obamacare pricetag and actually helped someone. Could have been paid for with existing taxes, assuming the government were a good steward of our tax dollars, which it isn't. Now, everyone will have to pay $3,000+ a month for rationed care, assuming the death panel finds you viable. |
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Title: Re: We have to stand up! Post by Dane Allen on 08/19/13 at 12:33:15 40797E75647F62100 wrote:
And the 30 million plus illegals on track for amnesty are not going to earn anywhere near enough to cover the difference with taxes, especially when they are near 100% net consumers of services, in that the taxes they pay no where near cover what they take. |
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Title: Re: We have to stand up! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/19/13 at 14:51:26 Hey,, The newly amnestied wont even be eligible for ANY Fed programs. That means they will be hired while Murcans arent |
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Title: Re: We have to stand up! Post by Dane Allen on 08/19/13 at 14:56:34 5A454344595E6F5F6F57454902300 wrote:
That is part 1.1, step 1 is amnesty, step 1.1 is full benefits. |
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Title: Re: We have to stand up! Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/19/13 at 15:09:10 Dane - Sorry, but you're wrong. I'm about as conservative as they come, but I feel for these Mexicans. I am the grandson of an immigrant, so I'm fairly close to the situation. If you are several generations away from the immigrant in your family, you can't understand what I'm about to say. America is still the land of dreams for many foreigners, especially those from the Third World. Until you hear an immigrant tell it, you can't appreciate what it takes for a person to leave family, friends, culture, and everything he/she knows to come here. Often, to a place where they can't even speak the language. Of course there are bad Mexicans, like there are bad people of every heritage. But the great majority of them endured personal and significant danger to just get here. Why do you think they did that; just to get an American hotdog? These people work their butts off. The ones I've met are usually men who left their families at home because they are sick and tired of seeing their wives and kids living in conditions that you and I can't really appreciate. Once here, they do work that most of us wouldn't even consider. They live 10 or more to a 2 bedroom apartment, so they can send money back home to put a decent meal in front of their kids now and then. I say all of this because our law firm has a significant immigration practice, and we see these poor souls every other day or so. While I don't practice in this area personally, I see the people and hear the stories. My grandfather left a job sweeping out stables when he was 18 years old, packed everything he owned in a trunk, and endured a several week trip in the bowels of an old steam ship to get to the U.S. He immediately went to work here and paid his own way from day one. My only complaint, and it's the fault of the gov't as much as anything for not declaring English to be our official language and tolerating the long term use of Spanish, is that the Mexican immigrants don't learn English quickly enough, nor well enough. End of speech. |
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Title: Re: We have to stand up! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/19/13 at 20:42:17 0A2F202B0F22222B204E0 wrote:
That is part 1.1, step 1 is amnesty, step 1.1 is full benefits.[/quote] Well, right now its NO Benefits ( federal) for like 13 years.. Actually, for them, its a blessing, dodge Bamicare.,Lose a few options, but avoid a bullet.. |
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Title: Re: We have to stand up! Post by Dane Allen on 08/20/13 at 09:41:22 4A45494348454E424552474552200 wrote:
Thank you for your reply. I am not sure it is a conservative issue, rather, a human rights issue. Allow to me to explain. I grew up in an agricultural community, my summer jobs were right alongside not just Mexican nationalities but other nationalities as well. There is a difference between those who immigrate here permanently and those who only come here temporarily to send money home. One has adopted this country as their own and the other is only here as long as they can benefit financially, which is not a bad thing in itself but it is in a way that breaks many of our laws. I will posit that there are those who prey on the plight of the Mexicans who suffer in the conditions back in Mexico you have outlined in your post. I will also put forth that we are not helping them at all by allowing them to come here and be exploited. What of those who cannot come here to work and are left behind in Mexico? Doesn’t the money these workers send home just help prop up the corruption that is keeping the Mexican populace down? Isn’t it odd that we can invade multiple countries on multiple continents at once but can’t seem to bring a smidgeon of pressure on the border country to our South? We put immense pressure on Israel and Cuba, why can’t we do the same to Mexico? I’ve heard from many Mexicans that they would rather be in Mexico but that the political and economic climate there is unbearable. So we bring the most able bodied here to work in sweat shops, agriculture and to clean Michael Moore’s mansions. Wouldn’t it be better, If were we not to intervene directly in Mexico, to make it as difficult as possible for Mexicans to come here so that the social pressure becomes soo great that they take their country back themselves and make life better for ALL Mexicans? Yes, the short term fix is to bring a small percentage of the Mexico population here, work them to the bone so that they can send money home but all that does is prop up the current system and ensures nothing will change for the better. My Conservatism is oriented mainly fiscal and freedom issues and I see that Mexicans are not economically free to pursue their own happiness and it is fiscal insanity to provide all illegals with our welfare benefits. |
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Title: Re: We have to stand up! Post by WD on 08/20/13 at 11:40:54 Assimilate or go home. One set of great grandparents were Irish born, one set German born, another great grandmother was English born. The rest were USA born. The foreign born ones assimilated and became fairly successful, as well as could be expected in the early 20th century. It still is not that difficult to become an American, if you are willing to work at it, learn English, and follow the rules. |
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Title: Re: We have to stand up! Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 08/20/13 at 11:49:10 Don't forget that the English and Irish immigrants already spoke English. But I agree - lay the blame on the liberals in Congress who refuse to adopt English as our official language, and now push bi-lingual signs everywhere. |
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Title: Re: We have to stand up! Post by Dane Allen on 08/20/13 at 13:43:40 303F3339323F34383F283D3F285A0 wrote:
Oh and I completely forgot to acknowledge and applaud you for your honest caring for these people beyond what you can get back from them in cheap labor and such. That should have been the first thing I said before going into anything else. I shudder to think what would happen were they no longer found to have any substantive value beyond cheap labor and liberal votes. |
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Title: Re: We have to stand up! Post by Dane Allen on 08/20/13 at 15:11:05 6073370 wrote:
+1 |
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