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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> New Muffler Problem /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1375887682 Message started by danjray on 08/07/13 at 08:01:22 |
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Title: New Muffler Problem Post by danjray on 08/07/13 at 08:01:22 So I found a cheap Dyna muffler on ebay, the reason it was cheap ($11) was because it was dinged up, and had no baffle in it. Because the stock one is so quiet I wanted to make sure I was loud enough to be heard (Loud pipes save lives!) so I decided to try it out, and if it became a flop, so be it, it was a cheap mistake. So now to the problem... I attached it no problem last night using the guides on this site (Thank you to everyone who has posted guides, I couldn't have done it without you!). When I fired it up, it sounded beautiful! :) but once I give it any amount of throttle it gets a nasty popping sound :( Now I did not have a jet set handy so I am still running the stock jets until my jet set from Lancer comes in soon. (I was too excited to wait haha) Also I'm assuming I'm running rich because I get afterfires every time I take in the clutch if I don't simultaneously give it any throttle. So now for my questions... Is this popping sound going to persist because I have no baffles or will jetting the carb fix it? (Also any suggestions as to which size to change to would be awesome!) If that won't fix the problem, is there anything I can do to get rid of the popping or should I simply scrap it and go with a baffled Dyna exhaust? Any input would be greatly appreciated! |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by Dave on 08/07/13 at 09:09:57 I am not sure that "Loud Pipes Save Lives".....but I am certain that they tick off the neighbors, aggravate the general populations, and tend to make people hate motorcycles and those that ride them. I have alwys been a fan of "Less Sound = More Ground" from my old dirt biking days. Your bike is not running rich when it backfires after you close the throttle......it is running lean. When you close the throttle it closes the fuel jets and the mixture becomes so lean the spark plug cannot ignite it....and it gets ignited by the hot exhaust header or the next power pulse from the engine where it is ignited by the spark plug. You can get a freeze plug at the auto store (I believe it is 1" diameter), and drive it into the muffler between the front and rear holes where the original center baffle used to be. Open or straight through exhaust are hard to get jetted right, and may make less power. Serowbot has added this video to the Dyna Muffler thread in the Technical Section if this link doesn't work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjKUKhHQLHg |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by danjray on 08/07/13 at 09:53:47 I mostly do highway riding, so my mentality has been that if you don't see me, and can't hear me, I'm invisible to you. So now at least if you can hear me you may notice me, but as far as the after fires that makes sense. I was either told differently or mis read before, I took after fires as there was an excess of fuel in the muffler, due to running rich, which was lit by the hot muffler, but your explanation makes more logical sense (since the easier exhaust due to less restriction should mean more air going through the carb requiring more fuel). (I'm more thinking aloud now so that if my logic is off I'm hoping someone can fix it) But I'll have to look into that freeze plug, because although I do think loud pipes are better, I also do know loud pipes piss people off and that is not my intention. |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by Dave on 08/07/13 at 10:32:32 I used to think the same way you do about the mixture when you shut the throttle. I assumed that when you chop the throttle and the vacuum increases dramitcally....that it would pull a lot of fuel through the jets. What I failed to take into account was that the closed slide or butterfly puts the jets on the opposite side of the carb from the high vacuum, and the slide needle has dropped down and closed off the main jet. When I was jetting my carb I installed an Oxygen Sensor and guage on my bike, and I was surprised to see the mixture go lean whenever the throttle was closed. The TEV device on our carb is supposed to add fuel to prevent help reduce the backfire....and I suppose with the stock muffler it helps. It is not up to the task of stopping backfires when we put on free flowing muflers. The reason that I don't believe that loud pipes do much to keep you safe, is that in most cases they only hear you when you are passing them. When you are approaching an intersection the sound is behind you and they really don't hear you coming....they hear you going. On the highway when driving my cage, with the windows up and the air conditioning on and the radio playing, I can only hear the motorycle when it is right beside me......so I suppose that might keep me from changing lanes while you are beside me. I do live about 2 miles from a major highway....and I can hear the loud pipes from bikes and semi trucks 24/7. |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by danjray on 08/07/13 at 11:48:57 I'll still take being heard beside you on the highway, for me that is one of the scariest parts while riding, being in someone's blind spot.. But not to cut back too quickly, would rejetting it (somewhat) properly reduce the popping effect I'm hearing? Because disregarding the backfires, it just simply sounds crappy right now when I get on the throttle, it is not an even sound, but like I said, it sounds like with each stroke it pops as the air leaves the exhaust. Just as a note, during idle it does sound good, just not when on the throttle |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by Dave on 08/07/13 at 11:55:07 On my bike the engine ran very lean just off idle. With a baffled DYNA muffler and a SuperTrapp my best jetting was a #50 pilot, #150 main and the needle installed with 2 metal washers on top of the needle instead of the white plastic spacer. I tried a #52.5 pilot with the 3 washers and it did not correct the lean condition, and when I went to 2 washers I had to back the pilot down to a #50 for smoother running. It sounds to me like your engine is too lean at the lower throttle settings where the pilot jet and needle jet control the fuel mixture. This is the throttle position (1/4 or less) where most of your riding is done....unless you are over 50 mph and needing more than light throttle. |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by danjray on 08/07/13 at 12:48:27 Awesome, thank you for the input, once my jetset gets in I'll be toying around with it! I'm hoping it'll be here by the end of the week so I have the weekend to get it running properly. In the meantime could I do damage to the bike if I continue to ride it? |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/07/13 at 13:49:44 What happens if ya pull the choke to 1/2? Full? If you can richen it a bit & knock some KerPOW out of it, then its better for the motor. |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by PhantomII on 08/07/13 at 14:37:00 You should be OK until your jets come in |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by Todd James on 08/07/13 at 22:58:30 My 2005 was factory stock when I installed the Dyna Muffler. When I fired it up it ran poorly and had the same nasty popping sounds and afterfires that yours has, danjray. So i pulled the brass plug, adjusted the screw for highest idle speed, then turned the throttle stop screw to set the idle at 1100 RPM. Those two adjustments made the bike ridable until the jets and spacer were changed. You'll need to pop the brass plug for tuning as part of your jet changes so you might want to try that now while your waiting for them. |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by danjray on 08/08/13 at 05:03:12 Awesome, that's at least good to hear, I was afraid I was going to have to scrap the entire thing. Justin, I'll try out pulling the choke halfway tomorrow and see how that works! Thanks for the advice! |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by ToesNose on 08/08/13 at 10:48:52 Yea I got a Dyna that was open too, the freeze plug trick did the trick :) |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by danjray on 08/08/13 at 11:01:50 6B505A4C71504C5A3F0 wrote:
I'm assuming you still had to rejet, but to what size? |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by danjray on 08/09/13 at 05:38:12 415E585F42457444744C5E52192B0 wrote:
I tried this out yesterday, it helped quite a bit, luckily my jet set comes in tomorrow so I shouldn't need to limp along by this method much longer! I was wondering if there is any correlation to using 1/2 choke to what jet size I would need to go to. With the 1/2 choke I still had some popping and after firing but it was better, at this point I'm guessing I'll go up a half size in the pilot and a full size in the main and go to 2 washers (based on the carb posts I've been reading) does that seem like a reasonable place to start? |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/09/13 at 05:45:57 You said it idles good, try leaving the pilot & doing the main & washers.. But, Im not Serow,, if he ( heck if Anyone) says anything else, do what they say,, |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by Dave on 08/09/13 at 05:51:43 My experience with jetting showed that a #50 pilot, #150 main, and 2 washers in place of the white spacer worked best with the stock air cleaner and a DYNA. I did have a Wiseco 95mm and a Stage 1 cam with the set up. |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by danjray on 08/09/13 at 05:52:05 6C7375726F6859695961737F34060 wrote:
It at least WAS idling fine... the first night I took it out it had no problems, but yesterday after getting off of the highway it petered out on me twice while waiting for lights to change.... I had to keep giving it some gas to keep it from dying. I then parked, it sat for about 2 minutes before I showed it to a guy who owned a savage years back, and when I fired it up, it idled fine again... any idea what that means? Cause it kinda had me at a loss... |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by Nailz on 08/09/13 at 15:18:25 To add to the confusion: I have a Dyna muffler with two 3/8" holes drilled in the baffle plug. I am running a 55 pilot and a 150 main. Two washers with the white spacer removed. About 1.25 turns out on the mixture screw. Raptor petcock if that makes any difference. Stock air filter. This is my wife's bike. We just went on a 50 mile two lane road ride (speeds from 25MPH to 55MPH - lots of stops and starts) and she said she heard two backfires. The bike runs great and it is not real loud, but sounds better than stock. It's a 2008 model. |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by Gyrobob on 08/11/13 at 05:55:55 Dave's correct about the loud pipes. They do NOT save lives, and only piss off folks, doing damage to our public image. They DO create tuning problems. We have at least a couple "loud pipe wars" threads where this was all hashed out hundreds of times. Some guys like to be noisy, even when they know it pisses everyone (driving, riding, walking, sitting) off, and even when they know it causes them a lot of work to get the bike jetted properly. Other guys go for less hassle,... less hassle for themselves, and less of a hassling relationship with the public. I agree, the stock system is nice and quiet,... too quiet, weighs a ton, and is ugly. Replacing it with something that has less backpressure (but at least SOME backpressure) and an exhaust tone that is a little more manly (but not distractingly loud), is a good thing. But still, you have several hours of tuning issues to handle. |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by danjray on 08/13/13 at 08:37:53 I won't get into the war in RSD, I haven't found the war threads yet but I'll look them up after this. I will admit it is a bit louder than I'd really like, and I am definitely finding the tuning issues to be a load of fun... I think I'll play with it a bit longer before I scrap it and get something with a bit of a baffle. I don't know if there has been a thread on back pressure, but I have wondered for a while, why is it required for the engine to work properly? I've heard from countless people that it is required, but never heard why, just that it is required... I'm going to do a search for this as well after posting this, but if anyone has a good description to point me toward I'd appreciate it! |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by Dave on 08/13/13 at 09:14:37 7C7976726A7961180 wrote:
Did you watch this YouTube video? It explains the problems with an unrestricted exhaust and how the uncontrolled pressure pulses rob you of horsepower. The baffles dampen out these pulses and help the engine make more consistent horsepower. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjKUKhHQLHg |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by Serowbot on 08/13/13 at 09:38:23 If a pipe doesn't have enough backpressure,.. the only way to stop backfires is to jet it so rich that it's choking on unspent fuel... This will run like cr@p,.. and give horrible MPG... Thta's because you're trying to fix a bad exhaust by tuning your carb... Your carb should be tuned for performance, not backfires... They are not related... Fix the problem by putting on a good muffler,... then jet for performance... and the backfires will take care of themselves... A well jetted Savage should deliver 55 to 65mpg, (normal riding, steady 45 to 60mph)... and have smooth power from idle to redline... Pilot jet makes a big difference to mpg's at steady cruise... ;)... |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by danjray on 08/13/13 at 09:39:15 Yes I did watch that video, and I do understand that the baffles act as a damper to the harmonic oscillations. Is it simply the back pressure which is doing the work behind the damping effect? |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by danjray on 08/13/13 at 09:45:44 And I am close to admitting defeat... I'll probably have one more foray of trying to tune it (yes I am hard headed, and I'll be the first to admit it), but I'm already searching for another muffler to replace it |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by Serowbot on 08/13/13 at 09:48:32 6A6F60647C6F770E0 wrote:
Not entirely,... a good muffler smooths the engine pulses,.. allowing air to pass easily,... just stuffing something in the hole will make backpressure, but it may cause engine pulses to revert back up the pipe and fight with the next pulse... This can make your engine fight with itself to breath,... When pulses aren't flowing smooth,.. it can heat up yer' exhaust valves, and burn them... Good mufflers are good for a reason... |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by danjray on 08/13/13 at 09:51:36 Quote:
Okay, okay... you guys have made you're point, I admit defeat, I'll go find another pipe :-/ |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by ToesNose on 08/14/13 at 05:00:12 Quote:
Nope no rejet, just the white spacer mod. I do have a 15" long intermediate pipe, I'm not sure if that has anything to do with not rejetting :-? |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by Gyrobob on 08/14/13 at 05:57:41 Quote:
Maybe you could just build one. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh253/Gyrobob_theOriginal/Motorcycle/Muffler_dragpipestyle20bucks01a-zamzar_zps459c5961.jpg A 1 1/4" or 1" inner pipe will be a little quieter and provide a bit more back pressure, but will only restrict flow a little. |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by danjray on 08/14/13 at 06:24:39 how hard would it be to get the three "baffles" (washers) in there? I don't have a drag pipe, it's a muffler with the baffles removed, or are you saying start from scratch with a drag pipe? |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/14/13 at 07:29:11 Dude,, slap a Dyna muffler on it & get to ridin that thing, Then, once youve got it jetted & running right, you can start hunting up the stuff to build a Gyro exhaust if that dont quite suit ya,, but youll be riding & not in a hurry to solve the problem. I think thats a good lookin exhaust Gyro has there, but , while cheap in cost of materials, it looks to have a substantial time investment. Having drilled holes in pipe before I have some idea,, |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by ToesNose on 08/14/13 at 10:15:10 Danjray before getting a different muffler just try the freeze plug mod. I just got a 1 1/4" high walled freeze plug from a local auto supply shop and used a piece of pipe to tap it into place seated against the welds of the original wall that was cut out from the inlet side. I've put around 1K miles on since with no issues at all. ;) |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by danjray on 08/14/13 at 10:15:47 Who said I wasn't riding with my current exhaust ;) And yeah I know it'll be a time investment, but I do enjoy a bit of a challenge, plus the satisfaction out of DIY projects |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by Dave on 08/14/13 at 10:22:52 Before you go drilling holes in pipe......look at the stuff this company has to offer. They have lots of baffles and perforated pipes at good prices. http://www.coneeng.com/ |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by Gyrobob on 08/14/13 at 13:43:29 76737C7860736B120 wrote:
Yeah. Build it from scratch. Cheap and quick if you can weld cheap steel. The three "baffles" would be welded to the inner pipe, and made to just fit inside the outer pipe as you slid the inner one in for final assembly of the drag pipe muffler. This idea wasn't aimed at your situation primarily, though, unless you like to fabricate simple stuff. A lot of us do. This idea was a solution offered to a guy that wanted a nice long drag pipe that didn't have much back pressure and not too much noise. If you want to get your situation solved nice and quick with few headaches, use the harly muffler. |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by ylwf3vr on 08/19/13 at 16:42:03 Not to hijack the original post but just have to vent a little - So took my bike to a local shop to get the muffler (HD 65747-94) put on. While it was in there I had them replace the battery since it was completely dead. Also had them re-jet it. So I got a call saying it's ready. They put it on a dyno to re-jet it (not sure if it was necessary) but I expected it to cost a good penny since it's going on dyno. They charged me $1031.. (not $103.1 but one THOUSAND).. said the muffler was not direct fit and it was bigger than the stock pipe. Had to find a new gasket and squeeze the new muffler a bit to prevent leak. My question to you all mechanically savvy guys.. was that good or bad price? And was dyno really necessary? |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by PhantomII on 08/19/13 at 17:33:16 I wouldn't have paid that, I had a welding shop make a sleeve and it only cost me $20.00 and my Dyno is the interstate. |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by danjray on 08/20/13 at 06:50:43 475249580D484C3E0 wrote:
Holy nuts... and I thought I overpaid when I bought my muffler for $40 shipped... :-/ |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by ToesNose on 08/20/13 at 07:45:09 495C4756034642300 wrote:
Bad price you paid out the ARSE! I would call back complain and let them know that you are going to file a complaint with the BBB >:( You already had the replacement muffler correct? If so even at an elevated retail price I would think- * New Battery $69 * Jets $25 * Cost to make a gasket and adapter for the muffler/header to fit properly $100 * If they have never worked on an LS650 and fumbled around a bit 3 hours work for a professional mechanic @ $80/hr - $240 Total $434.....ok lets add another hour of labor and make it $514 AN ADDITIONAL $500 for DYNO!!!!!??????? It's a bike not a NSACAR Stock Car!! |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by Dave on 08/20/13 at 07:59:23 Well.......If you pay someone else to work on your bike, it is expensive. Mounting the mffler and screwing around with the fact that the DYNA is not a direct fit, and the need to adapt a gasket and modify stuff would probably take an hour or two to get right if you have not done one before.......so that was probaly $ 150 or so. Jetting my carb to run correctly took me about 5 jet changes to get right, and I imagine that I spent close to 4 hours working on that. Making changes to the main and pilot jets got simple once I installed the allen head bolts on the float bowl - but twice I had to change the needle setting and that requires far more labor. I don't think that $ 500 is excessive for a dyno tuning process........it takes time to set things up and work on the carb. This thread should make it evident that learning how to do this yourself does save you a lot of money. Dealers have to charge for their equipment, their overhead, their employees salaries and Obamacare....and some profit if they are going to survive. Some of their time may have been spent learning how to adapt a DYNA muffler to a Savage......but time is money and you were paying them to do this for you. Yep $ 1,000 is a hard pill to swallow for what was done. With the information that is on this site about the muffler and jetting, and an afternoon of work you probably cold have gotten by with $ 60 worth of parts......but only if you have the mechanical skills it takes to do the work yourself. |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by PhantomII on 08/20/13 at 08:22:11 Anytime I ever take something in I always make them call me with the cost before they do any work. If you didn't do this and they did the work and you don't pay they could put a lien on your bike and sell it to recoup their costs. |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by ylwf3vr on 08/20/13 at 08:36:34 Well said - if you can do it I would do everything myself. I ask for an estimate and it came out to be about $700.. But that was before the muffler wouldn't fit directly report. Oh well I guess I'll just go ahead and enjoy riding it. :P crazy I spent 1/2 of what I paid for the bike at the shop |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by PhantomII on 08/20/13 at 08:43:20 Before we get to excited over this cost I have to ask is this American dollars? It doesn't say where you are located at and this site has people from all over the world on it, for all I know this could be $1000.00 Pecos. |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by ylwf3vr on 08/20/13 at 08:47:18 Oh and I got my new petcock in.. definitly doing it myself! >:( But the cam chain adjuster.... don't think I can do that one... how much you guys figure a shop will charge for that??? |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by ylwf3vr on 08/20/13 at 08:47:37 7E464F405A414367672E0 wrote:
Yep... good ol USD |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by ylwf3vr on 08/20/13 at 20:24:33 Got the invoice... Battery - 99.95 Labor for everything (oil/battery/filter:muffler) - 212.50 Dyno - 400 |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/20/13 at 21:31:53 I would go back in there & DEMAND someone kiss me.,.youve already had the sex & you otta at least get a kiss.. Let this be a lesson to people,, Do it at Home.,. |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by ToesNose on 08/21/13 at 04:20:19 3C293223763337450 wrote:
You originally said it cost you $1031, so what about the other $318.55 they charged you? :o That seems awfully steep for the jets and a muffler adaptor........... |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by Super Thumper on 08/21/13 at 14:36:32 If it ain't got a baffle it ain't a muffler it's just a pipe! |
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Title: Re: New Muffler Problem Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/21/13 at 18:43:57 You should call around & ask about dyno prices. I know 2 places I can have it for under 100 for the first test, one guy willlet me run the next ones for around 20 each |
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