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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Getting deeper into my starting problem /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1375887265 Message started by Crich422 on 08/07/13 at 07:54:25 |
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Title: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Crich422 on 08/07/13 at 07:54:25 Good morning everybody, so Ive posted about my starting problem before and you guys gave me some great things to check. I changed the battery, I changed the spark plug, I got a new Raptor petcock, but I cant seem to get it to fire up yet. Last week I was talking with our engineer at work, and he brought up the carb. Now when I got my Savage, my friend had driven it for a week, then parked it to put on a BCB kit. When he parked it, I know he didnt drain the carb or anything like that (mostly because he doesnt really care about maintenance, just riding lol) so my engineer buddy said to take it off the bike and clean it. "You have ignition, you have fuel with a new petcock, the only other thing youre missing is the mix of fuel and air leading to ignition." I never though about taking the carb off because from what I had heard it was a SOB to get off and clean. But after sitting in my garage, reading my manuel and spending 5 minutes looking at it, I finally took the carb off the bike! And it wasnt hard at all! (I was pleasantly surprised). When I got it off the bike, I turned it over and yellow gas poured out one of the California Emission tubes. Ive never seen yellow gas (or what I assumed to be gas) before. What could that be? Now my real question to you guys is, with the limited mechanical knowledge that I have, could I be the one to take it apart, repair it and clean it? Or is that a job for a shop to do? I found a shop here in Colorado Springs that works on Suzuki carbs, but if I can save some money, and learn more about my bike by doing it myself, then I would rather do that. But if its something that a newbie shouldnt be touching, then Ill take it to that shop and have them rebuild and clean it. Any thoughts? |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/07/13 at 08:27:44 You take your time, get the right tools, lay parts out carefully, you can do it, |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by verslagen1 on 08/07/13 at 08:54:35 most of us can't remember sh!t about what you've done before. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1367161001/0#0 |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by WD on 08/07/13 at 09:20:04 Yellow gas is varnish. Order some new STOCK sized jets, you're high enough up that stock is the right sized. Clean the carb body, insert new jets, and ride it. No biggie. |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Crich422 on 08/17/13 at 12:33:12 Hello everyone, so I finally had some time to work on my Savage and to try and get it started. I found some starter fluid and on the third try it finally kicked over! It fired up but as soon as I gave it a little bit of throttle (nothing dramatic, just a slow roll of the throttle), oil burst out from under the gas tank. Well I shut it down, sat on my shop stool, and thought about what could have caused that. At first, I thought I blew a head gasket because I heard that happens with the Savage eventually. So I emptied the gas out and pulled the tank off, thats when I noticed the tube coming from the right hand side of the top of the engine. The oil that burst out seemed to be coming from that, which I figure is probably less of a problem than a blown head gasket. So my question is: what is this tube? Did I over fill it and this is just the excess oil getting purged from the system? Thanks guys! |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/17/13 at 12:35:17 At first, I thought I blew a head gasket because I heard that happens with the Savage eventually. First Ive heard of that. Check oil level, |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Oldfeller on 08/17/13 at 12:50:51 The tube Justin is talking about is called the huff tube and it runs up then over and then down to the air box. It is a large hose that is intended to allow the engine to move air around as the piston goes up and down (a pressure relief and a suction source, because both will happen with each piston stroke). If it was unplugged at the engine mount point, then yes you can blow oil mist all over the underside of the gas tank. Issue with a great amount of liquid oil blown everywhere is that there shouldn't BE that much oil in your engine to allow that, which is why folks are asking you to check on some other things. They are trying to see if you got gasoline into your oil (which bulks up the volume a lot) and they are trying to get you to look into that as a separate issue. I realize you just put on a Raptor, so you may be dealing with a pre-existing condition from the old vac petcock. Still, where is your oil level in the sight glass and does it smell like gasoline when you open the fill plug and take a sniff at it. ============== Check and make sure you can blow freely through the huff tube before you put it back on again. If you put the huff tube back on and it blows itself off again (it has a spring clamp on it,BTW) and it is free and open, you may have got some bigger issues -- a compression test might be in order then. And I agree with Justin, blowing head gaskets NEVER happens on a Savage, although we have had crooked thieving stealership repair persons try to sell newbies head gasket teardown repair jobs quite frequently. (they love a $600 total engine tear down job, they do) Have you been talking to a stealership repair person by any chance? |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Crich422 on 08/17/13 at 13:01:06 Ok sweet, I will check on that stuff this week when I get a day off. The oil didnt smell like gas when the oil came out, but Ill check it again. The hose has been cut, so it vents right under the gas tank, should I put a new hose on it? One thats longer? Could it be possible that when I filled it with oil, I overfilled it? Ill check the oil level next time too |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Crich422 on 08/17/13 at 13:04:11 I DID talk to a dealership here in town, and he did say the head gasket fails a lot. So thank you for telling me that! |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Oldfeller on 08/17/13 at 13:09:52 40716A606B373131030 wrote:
Do you have a stock air box? If so, the huff tube goes up over and then down to it. If you have a cone air filter and no air box, then you need to put a small filter element on the end of the huff tube (go to your local auto parts store to find something to fit the hose). Route your non-airbox huff tube to somewhere safe so it can drip oil to the pavement without making an unholy mess, because it is GOING TO BLOW OIL MIST OUT THE END OF IT as that is part of its job. Did you let the stealership "work" on your bike any time lately? Cutting your huff tube then being all ready to tell you all about your "blown head gasket" really really smells fishy to me ..... Either you cut it or they cut it, as it would only take a few days to blow oil all over your engine. So which one was it? |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Crich422 on 08/17/13 at 13:19:33 Oh heck no, I called just to talk to them. I never took it anywhere, Ive done all the work on it so far myself. I didnt cut the tube but the friend that I got it from told me he cut it when I told him about this last night |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Crich422 on 08/17/13 at 13:19:57 No airbox, its a cone filter on the back of the carb |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Oldfeller on 08/17/13 at 14:27:43 So, go buy some rubber tubing of the proper internal diameter, run it UP under the tank then over behind the engine then back down the vertical tube behind the engine and let it end in the little filter somewhere that has a straight shot to the pavement that isn't in line with your rear tire (don't want any oil on your tire, really). Remember the UP, then over and then down -- the oil mist needs collect in the up portion so it can run back down the tube back inside the engine or you will lose some oil out that huff tube, enough to make you add more oil more frequently than you would otherwise. |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/17/13 at 14:45:38 6D5C474D461A1C1C2E0 wrote:
& Now ya know Just how much you can trust that lyin sack of crap.. NONE.. Ive got 20,000 miles on mine & i never torqued the head per Suzuki maintenance rules. Never touched them, |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by gizzo on 08/18/13 at 16:29:18 How about a little catch bottle on the end of the hose, to be emptied each service? Vented to atmosphere of course. An aluminium pot from a touchup gun would look cool. And save worrying about oil going on the tyre?. The stealerships can be pretty rough, the liars. Took some ducati heads to my local (now Out Of Business) for a valve clearance adjustment while the engine was out for Other Work. A couple years later took the whole bike back for a health checkup. "Oh wow, your valve clearances are terrible. Lucky you brought it in, it wouldn't lasted much longer". They were a bit embarrassed when I reminded them it was them that did the job last, and it had only done maybe 4000km since last (they're good for 20,000 between adjusting if you be nice). |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Crich422 on 09/02/13 at 13:54:55 So I finally got the time to go get a new huff tube. After I ran the tube, I tried starting it again. It kicked over and started on about the third try. But like before, oil came out of the tube and all over the floor. Lots of oil. After i cleaned up, I tried it again to see if more oil would come out. Some did but it stopped almost immediately. I let it idle for a moment, adjusting the idle screw a little bit. No more oil came out of the tube and it seemed to idle just fine. I only let it run for about a minute, maybe less. So My question is: Could all of that oil had been because I had over filled it before and this was just the excess being blown out? It didnt smell like gas when I was cleaning it up or when I open the oil cap. |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Serowbot on 09/02/13 at 14:50:39 It sounds like you had it overfilled.... It should be half way up in the site glass (R-side near clutch lever) with the bike upright and level... A blown head gasket is almost unheard of on a Savage... Yer' dealer is a moron... or a chiseler... likely both... Those tubes on your carb aren't emission tubes,... they're vent tubes.. they allow air out of the float bowl so that gas can enter... They must be left open to atmosphere... |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Crich422 on 09/06/13 at 10:54:05 I went out earlier and started it again, because I want to put the seat back on and roll it outside. When I did more oil came out for a few seconds and it was hard to start, but after a few tries the oil stopped and it idled just fine. I wasnt expecting the oil so it got all over the wrap around the exhaust pipe, and it just about smoked me out of my garage. I was worried the smoke was coming from somewhere else, but after I cut the wrap off it looked like there was just oil on it. So the plan from here is: to clean the exhaust and get a new wrap, look for a new battery cover because the one I have doesnt seem to fit the battery box, and decide if I want to take it to a tire shop to balance the wheels because my friend took out the back axle and replaced it with the BCB extended axle. |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by oldNslow on 09/06/13 at 13:20:54 Quote:
I'm not sure what the BCB extended axle is for, but I'm sure that changing an axle has nothing whatever to do with wheel balance. Or am I missing something. |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Crich422 on 09/06/13 at 14:44:25 Fair enough, he just mentioned something about it. I wont worry about it then lol |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/06/13 at 20:16:34 Axle has No Bearing on balance, |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by verslagen1 on 09/06/13 at 20:18:59 786761667B7C4D7D4D75676B20120 wrote:
unless it's bent :o |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/06/13 at 20:49:06 Even bent, wont change the wheels balance,, may screw with the ride.. |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Crich422 on 09/09/13 at 06:32:18 Ok, I wont worry about the back axle because it doesnt seem to be bent or messed up. I just dont 100% trust my buddy to follow through on some things, I mean he didnt even put the entire BCB kit on it lol. I went out and fired it up again, because honestly, I'm glad to have it running lol. But when I got on, pulled the clutch in and put it into first, it died. I wasnt going to try and ride it anywhere, I was just curious about the gears, because it only seems to have 3 gears when my buddy would go through the shifting when not running. Does that make sense? Now this could just be my personal ignorance though because.... I dont have my license yet, I have been waiting to get the money and to get my Savage running before I took the class and get my stamp. So Im not sure if its a problem or if its just me not doing it right.... What would cause it to die when I put it in gear? That cant be normal right? Or am I just such a newbie, that I'm not doing it right? |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/09/13 at 07:04:42 Prolee the kickstand.. Otta not die w/ clutch in,, BUT,, Put the stand up, try again., |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Crich422 on 09/10/13 at 13:04:17 Ok, I tried putting the kickstand up and it would still die when i put it in gear. BUT I tried a few more times and it wouldnt die, sometimes with, sometimes without putting the stand up. Again, I dont know if thats just a newbie thing or a mechanical thing. I was also taking a look around the site and I saw an article about the mixture screw. I took a quick look at it today and I dont see where it is on my carb. It is idling a bit rough, will that help it idle smoother? |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by verslagen1 on 09/10/13 at 13:29:31 what happens if you bump the idle speed up a bit? |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/11/13 at 04:33:27 I think Versy is onto something,,IF the added load of spinning the clutch guts in gear make it die, it runnin too low. |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Crich422 on 09/11/13 at 08:53:29 I turned the idle up a bit and it didnt die the times I put it into gear. (on a side note, I need some riding boots because it is darn near impossible to shift in my sneakers. Not that I was going to ride with those shoes, they were just the ones I was wearing while working on it lol). Ill go out and start it up again and see if it does it again (this time wearing my steel toe work shoes lol) Im also going to try and find that brass plug from the article i read as well, from the sound of things everybody on here has taken that plug out eventually. |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/11/13 at 09:00:01 Low idle = low oil pressure = DESTROYEDHead. But hey,, it sounds good.,,. |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by babyhog on 09/11/13 at 09:32:18 Shouldn't be that difficult to shift with sneakers, unless they are really thin, I could see it might hurt a tender foot. I hope you mean its just uncomfortable, not that its actually hard to shift. I've found while sitting still, it can be harder to shift, but if you rock it back and forth a little, it will be easier. But be careful with steel toed work shoes. You don't want to be stomping the shifter or jerking it too hard. Hard-shifting could be a different issue, which hopefully the pros will comment on. |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Crich422 on 09/11/13 at 09:49:11 A few things I noticed this morning: I couldnt get it to kick over unless I used a little starter fluid, and it idled pretty rough this morning. I turned the idle screw in a few more times, but it still was a bit rough. I read that having to use starter fluid is because of a weak electrical system, now I have only had the bike idle, not out running on the road, could this have drained my battery and thats why i needed the starter fluid? I also think i found the brass plug for the mixture screw, I just need a drill and screw to get it out. Could the mixture be whats making it idle rough? |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Crich422 on 09/11/13 at 10:06:44 My shoes are just very thin, I just meant I need a stiffer boot. Destroyed head? I thought that never happened with these bikes? Should I be worried that I messed up something? |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/11/13 at 11:31:53 Losing a head gasket,, VeryRare. Ruining the head from low oil pressure? Not rare enough. No need to worry now, keep the idle at 1,000 or more, If its not running good, goose it up, |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Crich422 on 09/12/13 at 07:46:13 I dont have a tach, so how do I tell when Im at 1,000rpm? What do I do about the oil pressure? |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Dave on 09/12/13 at 07:48:25 49786369623E38380A0 wrote:
If you could ride your bike.....you set the idle speed so that in first gear on level ground you are going about 9 mph in first gear. Since it seems your bike is not yet rideable.....go to YouTube and search 500 beat per minute metronome......and adjust your idle so that you bike sounds like that. Your oil pressure will take care of itself once you have the idle set correctly....and you actually start riding your bike. Starting and idling your bike without riding it is not all that good on the engine....it needs to be ridden! |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by oldNslow on 09/12/13 at 08:33:06 Quote:
Just my two cents: I wouldn't fool with the idle mix screw yet. I think it's unlikely that that is your problem. The factory setting may not be optimal, but it's close enough that most bikes run OK without tampering with it. Get everything else sorted and put a few miles on the bike before you start trying to fine tune things. Do the simple stuff first - make sure your battery is up to snuff, and maybe try a NEW spark plug if you haven't already done that. Double check the rubber connector between the head and the carb. Make sure it's tight, not cracked etc. Drilling out the brass plug over the idle mix screw is not really a big deal, but it's not trivial either. It's possible to screw it up and cause yourself more headaches. As far as the idle speed goes - you can't really hurt anything by getting it a little bit too high, as long as you don't go crazy, so don't be afraid to turn it up high enough so that the bike will at least stay running. |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Crich422 on 09/17/13 at 06:33:38 Ok, I tried to check my oil level but I cant see anything through the glass. I know youre supposed to have oil half way up the glass, but I cant tell if its not up to the glass or if it is over the glass. Any tips to help? |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/17/13 at 07:14:11 Yea,, if its Over the glass you should be able to see a line on the stand. Let it sit, normally, & look., Or, if its Low, lean it to you some & see if a line shows on the glas,. |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Steve H on 09/18/13 at 04:15:12 If the sight glass is completely black, it is most likely too full. There is a silver backing behind the glass to make it easier to see the level. If it's completely silver (metal) behind the glass, there's no oil up that high. |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Crich422 on 09/18/13 at 07:31:12 Yeah I'm pretty sure its way over filled with oil, because I had a friend ride it around my apt complex (since people had said to get it out and dont let it just idle in the garage). He took it down the street, turned around and came back. As soon as he left, oil spewed out of the huff tube, and it left a trail down the road. When he turned around and came back, it sounded like it was bogging down and it died right as he got back to the garage. The muffler and the right side of the tire were covered in oil, as well as a little skunk tail up his back since I dont have the back fender on it yet. I know its dangerous to have oil on the tires, so we pulled it back in the garage and cleaned it up. I want to drain all the oil out, and refill it to the correct level, then have him take it around the block again. (I am taking my riding class next week, so ill be able to do it myself soon, finally) Are there any tips or suggestions for this continuing problem? Or should the correct level of oil fix this? |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Steve H on 09/18/13 at 15:03:28 Assuming the little filter mesh thingy is still in the head cover, the correct oil level should pretty much end the spewing out oil problem unless there is tremendous blow-by or something else causing it. |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Crich422 on 09/28/13 at 20:37:07 Ok, here is a little bit of an update: I finally got my license!!!!! I now can ride my motorcycle legally to work and anywhere I want! Now actually riding MY bike, might have to wait a bit... I went out today with my buddy and we drained the oil and refilled it to the correct level (there was over a GALLON of oil when I drained it, so Im not surprised it spewed out oil all over the place!). When I started it up it sounded like the throttle was stuck wide open. It didnt sound like it did last week when I had it idling in the garage, and I dont know what changed between then in now. The idle screw was screwed pretty far in, so I backed it down and that seemed to pull down the RPMs a bit, but not to where it was last week. When I looked at my cable it seems to be a little loose when it goes into the hand control, would a loose cable make it rev up like that? |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Serowbot on 09/28/13 at 23:11:14 Jeepers!,... with a gallon of oil,.. you turned your bike into churn... I'm surprised it didn't pump oil into the mirrors!... 2 quarts... then set the idle to a smooth purr,... not a lope... not racing,... Same rhythm as most cars... just don't pretend it's a Harley... I think the oil was the problem... (does it read halfway in the siteglass, with the bike held upright, now?)... |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/29/13 at 14:36:47 If you havent dumped the oil, get a cup of it & smell for gas,, or try to lite it, SAFELY,, LONG stick with a match Outside |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Crich422 on 09/30/13 at 08:07:37 The oil is half way up the site glass, so its good now. Thank goodness! lol. The oil doesnt smell like gas, and I had a lot of it to smell. My buddy wanted to set the idle to the "thumping of a Harley" but I told him that wasnt right. He wants it to be cool, not right lol. It seems to be a little high right now but ill go out and mess with it a bit more today if I can |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Steve H on 09/30/13 at 15:46:10 Better a little high on the idle than too low. A little extra oil pressure in the head won't hurt a thing. Lack of pressure sure will. |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Crich422 on 10/04/13 at 12:09:41 Eureka! ... kinda. I took it out today to ride around my apt complex, to get a feel for things and see how its riding. As I said before the idle seemed to be a little high but a few people have told me thats ok, better high than low. Well when I get it out of the garage, into gear, and get out of the friction zone and give it a little throttle, it starts to bog down. Bog down as in I roll on the throttle and it starts to die. I made it to a stop sign by my mailbox and it completely died, and I couldnt get it started again. So I pushed it back to the garage, not a big deal, I needed the exercise anyways lol. Now the conditions are a bit cold here in Colorado today, and my battery was left in the bike for a few days. I took it out and put it on the trickle while I was out getting parts (to wire up my tail light), but that was only for about an hour. It was hard to start, and I had to use some starter fluid, but I think thats because of my battery not being fully charged. I cant seem to stabilize my idle either, some times its really high, sometimes it really low. Does this sound like a problem anybody else has run into before? |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Crich422 on 10/04/13 at 12:29:55 One other thing I wanted to ask about: Im sick of having to take my seat off every time I want to charge my battery. Can I put some kind of pigtail on the terminals to clamp the charger onto? I have some extra 18 guage wire, is this to small of a wire or will that work? And if I do put pigtails on them, will they mess anything up by being touched by anything while riding? Its only a trickle charger so I wouldnt think I would need a very thick wire. Thanks!! |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by Steve H on 10/04/13 at 13:13:27 Many battery tenders come with installable pigtails. They are intended to be left connected to the battery. You just pull the cord and away you go. To just leave some wire hanging, I'm not so sure about. If the + hits anything grounded you're possibly going to have a wire melt-down situation with no fusing to stop the melt. Might start a fire, might just burn into two pieces, might melt through the side of your battery, might just spark and bounce off. You'll need a way to thoroughly insulate the + wire when not connected to the charger. |
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Title: Re: Getting deeper into my starting problem Post by old_rider on 10/04/13 at 20:59:45 Something like this charger will work, it has the added wiring to use that will allow you to put a plug in type cable on your battery so you won't have to take the seat off every time. http://www.amazon.com/Battery-Tender-021-0123-Junior-Charger/dp/B000CITK8S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1380945529&sr=8-1&keywords=battery+tenders |
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