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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Help! My Savage refuses to start! /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1372030663 Message started by winterwalker on 06/23/13 at 16:37:43 |
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Title: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by winterwalker on 06/23/13 at 16:37:43 Hi folks, after much searching of the forums and pouring over similar issues with no luck, I guess it's time to post my own starting issue here. I'm stuck. The long and short of it is: the bike won't start up at all. I had it in to a mechanic for the well known head gasket leak issue (starting and running without a problem mind you), when I got a call from them saying that the starter was kaput and would need to be replaced to the tune of $500 plus labor. Well, I took the bike back, replaced both the starter motor and relay solenoid myself for good measure (both new parts checked out fine) and still no joy. Symptoms: with the battery charged up and on the bike, lights all come on and look good. When I pull the clutch and hit the starter switch, all the lights dim significantly, and there's a single loud *click* from the starter relay. At one point there was a loud buzzing from the relay instead of a click, but that seems to have disappeared - think that was a combination of old starter/new relay or new starter/old relay... can't remember which. I've had both an old battery (which I know worked in the past) and a brand new AGM from Autozone on a tender, fully charged, and can't get the engine to turn over with either. I've pulled the spark plug to give a visual check and as far as I can tell, it looks good - doesn't appear to be bridged, worn, or otherwise fouled, but gave it a quick cleaning just in case. I carried out the spark test by holding the base of the plug against the engine body, but instead of the "fat blue spark" that folks have said means things check out, I either get a very weak spark across the gap, or no spark at all. Is this indicative of a bad plug or an issue elsewhere? That's as far as I've gotten, and I'm not exactly sure where to go from here. Any help or advice would be much appreciated! Thank you in advance! -Dave EDIT: I should mention, the bike is a 2001 with about 3300 miles - 2000 of which I put on. I bought it 3rd hand, but very gently used. |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by shovelbum87 on 06/23/13 at 16:45:18 Check to make sure that your plug on the right handle bar is actually plugged in, theres a clutch/neutral safety switch or something in there and the bike wont turn over if its unplugged. I learned the hard way on that one, apparently the locking tab was broken and after a little ride it vibrated out just enough that it wouldn't start again. Hope this helps atleast some |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by Charon on 06/23/13 at 17:12:33 From the sound of it, the starter solenoid is engaging (the "click") but the engine is not turning, which causes high current and the dimming of the lights. So the interlocks are working as they should. While I have not had to go into mine, I understand there is a washer or spacer in the starter drive system which can be incorrectly assembled, and which will cause this problem. |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by winterwalker on 06/23/13 at 17:33:09 Thanks for the suggestion shovelbum! I checked out the controls, and everything seems tight and secure. Don't think that's what's causing the issue this time around, but I'll definitely remember that for future reference! Yep Charon, that's what I kinda thought - solenoid is engaging, but the starter can't turn the engine. Is that washer/ spacer you're referencing in the starter motor, or the bike's drive? I've tested the starter off the bike, and it checks out - spins hard and fast. If in the starter motor, would that washer/ spacer let the starter spin while off the bike, but prevent from properly engaging when on? If in the drive, I can see that being a definite possibility. Thanks! |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by shovelbum87 on 06/23/13 at 17:39:37 Is the decompression solenoid/ head unloader operating? Is there too much compression to get the starter going? |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by Charon on 06/23/13 at 17:46:28 As I said, I have never had to work on mine. I believe the washer/spacer is somewhere in the drive. It is said to have a tendency to "jump" out on disassembly, and to fit in either of two places on reassembly. Only one is correct, and the other makes the system inoperable. Sorry I can't be of more help. |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by winterwalker on 06/23/13 at 17:48:17 213A3D24373E30273F6A65520 wrote:
I'm not really sure... how can I tell if the decompression solenoid and head unloader (or are those one and the same) are operating? Please forgive my ignorance here - I'm pretty handy with a wrench, but I haven't had much experience troubleshooting and fixing motorcycle issues. :-[ |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by winterwalker on 06/23/13 at 17:54:03 6F444D5E43422C0 wrote:
Well now that is a real possibility... can't say I have much faith in the mechanic who was doing repair work on my baby. :-/ I'm going to have to look into that. Thanks Charon! Is anyone else familiar with the issue Charon described? I'd be grateful for more detail on the two places the washer could fit. Thanks in advance! |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by verslagen1 on 06/23/13 at 19:33:12 Ask the mech if he had the stator cover off. You don't need to take if off for the head plug. But if he did then that could be it. |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by winterwalker on 06/24/13 at 06:27:14 213225243B3630323966570 wrote:
Hey verslagen, what would the issue be if the stator cover was off? I'm pretty certain that it was as there are a number gouges and scratches on it that weren't there before the mechanic had it. Looks like they slipped more than once when taking it off/ putting it back on. |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by Dave on 06/24/13 at 06:37:48 If the stator cover was off.....the washer usually falls off the starter idler gears. The idler gear with the clutch gets a washer on ech side, and the idle gear that the starter motor meshes with does not get any washer. People unknowingly put a washer on the rear that meshes with the starter - then the gear is pushed out too far and hits the case when it is installed and tightened....and it locks the gear up and won't let it turn. To find out if this is the problem take the starter out, then stick your finger in and try to rotate the gear......you should be able to turn it in one directiion easily......and the other way the starter clutch will be engaged and you won't be able to turn it. If the dealer screwed up the washer.....they should fix it at their cost. (But I am not sure I would want them working on it anymore if their diagnostic abiliities are so poor). You and also confirm the starter works by hooking it up while it is not bolted to the engine and seeing if the starter works when you push the button. To see if your decompression solenoid is working.......look at the lever behind the chrome cover at the top left side on the eninge. See if this lever moves up when you hit the starter button.....and you should hear a loud click just before the starter engatges. |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by winterwalker on 06/24/13 at 07:10:24 Dave, thank you so much for that explanation! That's extremely helpful! I wouldn't put it past the mechanic to have done exactly what you described - he's proven himself to be completely unreliable. It was an independent mechanic, not a dealer, and though he claimed to have worked on savages before, that could explain why he may have screwed up the installation. Next time I'll take it to a dealer. But in any case, I won't be trusting that mechanic with my bike again. So just to confirm, if I use my finger to rotate the gear and it does not turn in either direction, it's likely that the washer was incorrectly placed on the gear that meshes with the starter - yes? I've checked the starter off of the bike and it does work when I hook it up directly to a battery, so I think it checks out... but I'll see about hooking it to the lead off the bike and hitting the starter button to see if that engages the starter motor. I do hear a loud click when I hit the starter button, but the sound comes from the starter solenoid under the seat rather than the decomp solenoid under the tank. I'll carry out the visual test you described and post the results afterward. I don't have the proper tool (that Honda three sided job) to crack open the stator cover... is there something else I can use? Lastly, will I need to drain the engine oil if I'm removing the stator cover? Thank you for the help! Y'all are life savers! |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by Dave on 06/24/13 at 07:25:59 647A7D67766164727F787661130 wrote:
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by winterwalker on 06/24/13 at 07:52:15 Dave - you are awesome! Thank you for the prompt reply! Last question for now (I may have more after I follow your suggestions) - will I need to drain the engine oil if I'm removing the stator cover? |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by Charon on 06/24/13 at 08:00:00 Ya know, on reading through this thread, I wonder whether the "mechanic" removed the stator cover, replaced it with the washer incorrectly installed, then decided the starter was bad when it wouldn't crank the engine. Could be, the original starter is still good. |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by winterwalker on 06/24/13 at 08:09:51 7C575E4D50513F0 wrote:
You know what Charon? You might be right. The mechanic told me that the starter "bench tested fine, but isn't able to crank the engine" and concluded that there was a short in the starter motor. I don't even know what he was doing with the stator cover off! :-/ Now one point of detail - the mech told me that he was able to push-start the bike down a hill... would one even be able to push start the bike if the washer was installed incorrectly? |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by Charon on 06/24/13 at 08:27:30 47595E44554247515C5B5542300 wrote:
You know what Charon? You might be right. The mechanic told me that the starter "bench tested fine, but isn't able to crank the engine" and concluded that there was a short in the starter motor. I don't even know what he was doing with the stator cover off! :-/ Now one point of detail - the mech told me that he was able to push-start the bike down a hill... would one even be able to push start the bike if the washer was installed incorrectly?[/quote] I don't know whether anyone has tried it. Since push-starting doesn't use any part of the starter drive system it ought to work. I think there may be some confusion on terminology. The round cover which requires the three-sided tool for removal is not the stator cover. It is an inspection plug that allows you to turn the engine and see the timing mark. The stator cover is much larger, and is the part into which that inspection plug fits. |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by Dave on 06/24/13 at 08:36:54 Since the starter gears are not rotating.......the engine could run just fine with the starter gears screwed up. The one-way clutch on the engine will not try to drive the starter gears.....unless you shut it off and it tries to turn backwards as can happen when the piston hits the compression stroke on the shut-down! :o |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by winterwalker on 06/24/13 at 09:04:45 7C575E4D50513F0 wrote:
You're right Charon - I was confused! I was under the impression that the inspection plug had to be removed to get the stator cover off. Thank you for setting me straight! That being the case, now I'm not sure if the stator cover was removed - I suppose the mechanic may have had cause to remove the inspection plug. Guess I'll have to bite the bullet and call... not looking forward to that... we exchanged some terse words after what they put me through (loooong story). Thanks! Guess I'd better get cracking... |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by 87 savage on 06/24/13 at 16:42:05 Winterwalker, yup you will have to drain the oil before pulling the stator cover. If he did remove the cover I would imagine he used a new cover gasket. If he didn't use sealer on both sides ( or neither side) you should be able to reuse it. If you do decide to pull the cover, the magnets on the rotor hang on like hell, so don't go nuts trying to pry it off with a screwdriver. Once you verify you have pulled ALL the bolts, you will have to rock the cover off the pins. If you have to stick something between the cover and the crankcase, use wood or plastic shims, it WILL come off. Good luck :) |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by winterwalker on 06/25/13 at 10:02:55 35383631262065636D6C540 wrote:
Thanks Savage! I would have hated to start cracking it open only to have oil pour out everwhere. :o I'm not assuming anything in this case - a reliable mechanic very likely would have used a new gasket, but through my dealings with this guy, he's proven to be a total moron and has cut corners at every opportunity. So, I'm not betting on finding a shiny new gasket in there. Thanks for the tip about the magnets! Charon, Dave, y'all were absolutely right - the washer is installed on the gear that meshes with the starter. I was unable to move the gear in either direction by hand and I could actually feel the washer sitting on the starter side of the gear. I'm beyond ticked off at this "mechanic" - this is only one of a ridiculous series of issues I've had with this guy. If he wasn't such a dofus I'd insist that he fix it at his cost. >:( If anyone in or around Boston is interested to know who the mechanic is in order to avoid the shop, PM me. Anyway... I picked up a Clymer and as far as I can tell, taking the Stator cover off seems to require removing the drive belt and pulley - is that accurate, or is it possible to remove the stator cover without going through that? Can anyone give me a ballpark estimate of how much time it will take to cary out this fix including breakdown and assembly time? Thank you all so much! I've been pulling my hair out for over a month trying to troubleshoot this issue and getting no where until now! |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by Dave on 06/25/13 at 10:40:25 My quick approach repair would be: Drain the oil. Lean the bike over on the right somehow.......being supported by the kickstand will make it horribly inconvenient. The drive pulley will not interfere - but the wiring for the stator needs to be loose and you might have to take the drive pulley off to get to the wiring. Remove the screws holding the mag cover on. Carefully rock the cover loose and pull it off. Both of the washers go on the gear that is nearest the flywheel - no washers on the rear gear. Put it all back together.....add oil. |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by winterwalker on 06/26/13 at 07:09:21 675C5146575B40465D555847340 wrote:
Thank you Dave! You were right - the pulley did not need to come off. Phew! And really, taking the stator cover off while on the side-stand wasn't so bad. The only thing that gave me trouble was the stator cover bolt that sits behind the side-stand/clutch cluster. That thing was a bear to get out! I'll need to pick up a few new tools for next time. So, the good news is that I managed to teardown and move the washer successfully - took about 2 hours start to finish for anyone who is interested/ might need to deal with this issue. The bad news is the Gasket was indeed old and tore at the top of one of the bolt holes. So now, the bike starts up and runs (woo hoo!) but spits oil out from between the stator cover and body. :-/ I've ordered a new gasket and hopefully will have it here by Friday. (Crossing my fingers) I guess the silver-lining here is that when I repeat the process to replace the gasket, I'll know what I'm doing and it should go more smoothly. Also, I'll be able to photograph the process and post a write-up here. Maybe that'll help someone else down the road. One question - after getting the bike back together and starting her up, I noticed that shifting in idle was difficult and pretty inconsistent. Is that just a matter of the oil needing to work through, or am I looking at a different issue now? Thanks! |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by verslagen1 on 06/26/13 at 07:55:08 66787F65746366707D7A7463110 wrote:
check you idle speed and clutch adjustments 1st when cold, the clutch can be a little sticky causing a clunk when you shove it in gear. |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by winterwalker on 06/26/13 at 10:12:34 554651504F4244464D12230 wrote:
check you idle speed and clutch adjustments 1st when cold, the clutch can be a little sticky causing a clunk when you shove it in gear.[/quote] Cool - I'll check those out. Thanks verslagen! |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by winterwalker on 06/26/13 at 11:35:19 Oh, one other thing I want to mention/ask before I get around to replacing the gasket: When I had the stator cover off, I noticed a circlip (c-clip) on the stator-facing side of Starter idle gear No.1 (the one nearest the flywheel). I don't see that reflected in the Clymer manual, the 2001 Parts List that TMACK-1 created, or any other image/diagram I can find. Anyone know if that's supposed to be there? If not, could leaving it on cause any problems? Thanks |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by verslagen1 on 06/26/13 at 12:17:44 leave it be, take that off and it won't work. i.e., you'll have the starter free spinning, no starty been there, fixed that, twernt easy. |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by winterwalker on 06/26/13 at 12:26:53 657661607F7274767D22130 wrote:
Yeesh - good to know. Thanks verslagen! Jeeze, you'd think a piece that important'd show up somewhere. |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by verslagen1 on 06/26/13 at 13:39:46 You can only get that as a unit, and it's not a good idea to take it apart. |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by 87 savage on 06/27/13 at 02:13:11 584B5C5D424F494B401F2E0 wrote:
+1 !! :) |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by keith on 06/27/13 at 22:50:06 If your mechanic put it together wrong and misdiagnosed the failure, he should reimburse you the cost of the starter he replaced. I am a car mechanic and that kind of crap would never fly. It is a pain to get them to do it, but it is the right thing to do. Good luck. |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by i2iot on 08/09/15 at 13:27:01 Hey everybody! I've been lurking on the forum for a year now and have found it immensely helpful!! I loaned my 07 Boulevard to my meth-head brother for a few months and had to pick up up last week when he went to start a long stretch in jail. Aside from having been laid over, a foot-peg replaced with a piece of steel, and some new scratches and dings... it wouldn't start and the problem I was having is 100% like this old thread. He spray-painted the left cover and I don't think it worked after that based on the brand new oil change. When trying to start it it just made a clicking sound. I replaced the battery, tested the solenoid, and cleaned and tested the starter per the manual with a voltmeter. It sounds like the starter is not engaging. I verified the gear connected to the starter WILL spin in one direction. According to this post a washer or some "clip" (not pictured in the Clymer manual) could be causing this issue. Can someone tell me if anything looks wrong here? |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by verslagen1 on 08/09/15 at 13:39:10 yes, washer on wrong gear, s/b like this... http://www.savageriders.com/verslagen/Starter%20Clutch%20Upgrade/washer-location.jpg |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by i2iot on 09/18/15 at 16:59:40 Thanks so much for the photo reply dude! I finally got the new stator cover gasket, oil filter, oil and moved the washer from the right side to the left, when I tried to crank it it did this: http://youtu.be/3TfWR54Eka4. That's more noise than it was making when the washer was on the right, then it would only make the starter hum or just click. Any idea what could be going on now? |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by Steve H on 09/18/15 at 17:15:46 Well, the motor is spinning. That's much better than being bound up by a washer in the wrong place. Is it spinning the right direction? Could be the sprague clutch is slipping if it is spinning the right direction. Could be the torque limiter clutch is messed up somehow and just spinning instead of pulling. Just from the sound, it sounds like the whole gear train is turning so I'm going to say either it's spinning backwards or the starter clutch is bad. Hope someone else has a better, less expensive idea. If it's spinning backwards, make sure the battery is hooked up correctly. If it is, the direction of rotation can be changed by rotating the brush plate 180 deg. There is a spark plug in it? |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by i2iot on 09/20/15 at 12:39:55 Thanks a lot for the reply Steve, the tip about the brush plate was terrific. When it wasn't starting we cleaned the starter out, and must not have put it back together correctly. After turning the brush plate in the starter IT TRIED TO CRANK!!, but the battery was SMOKING like crazy and the terminals on the battery were really hot. The battery is brand new, and it smoked even harder when we hooked it up to a truck. This is the 3rd battery we've tried in it. Here's another video: https://youtu.be/gXHbJ66veYk The horn sounded kinda weak. I read it could be a grounding issue so we made an artificial ground with some jumper cables to the battery but it did the same thing. We're thinking the starter is the issue? |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by verslagen1 on 09/20/15 at 13:33:26 I would put a volt meter on it to see what the cranking voltage it. but it sounds like a dead battery. put it on charge overnite and see what happens. you should not charge over 2 amps. check the water while you're at it. |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by Steve H on 09/20/15 at 14:30:11 That means you're pulling WAY too much current. Something is shorting somewhere. It's very bad for a battery to get hot enough that therminals are very hot. You can blow them up that way. |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/20/15 at 19:39:03 You're playing with fire.. If you're seeing smoke ,, things are getting really hot, STOP. And it's worse than the two times before, when you used the truck? I'd be getting the starter checked out by a pro. Guys, is there no fuse to protect the wiring harness that goes to the starter? Should the starter motor be Able to suck that much current? I don't remember what the fuses were... |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by i2iot on 02/26/17 at 18:55:17 I was browsing the forum and realized I didn't say how this story ended.. apparently the starter got burned out, probably from my brother trying to start it after putting that pesky washer on the wrong side. Replaced the starter and she has been running great ever since! Sadly she's all beat to hell and back now though. Don't loan your bike to a meth head. |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/27/17 at 07:27:26 Don't loan your bike to a meth head. Sage advice. But don't we all just wanna give someone One More Chance? I'm guilty of letting people screw me over. |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by batman on 02/27/17 at 18:08:44 JOG ,the key word being One , in one more chance,and yes we can all be had once.twice is our own fault. |
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Title: Re: Help! My Savage refuses to start! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/27/17 at 20:03:14 I know, dude,, it was complicated.. |
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