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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1364460485 Message started by 23Skidoo on 03/28/13 at 01:48:05 |
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Title: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by 23Skidoo on 03/28/13 at 01:48:05 Hi, I lost 3rd gear upwards on the way to work this morning.. Sounds a bit weird but when in 1st the lever feels almost if it's dropped a little (although that could be a bit sub concious) and I have some play between 1st and neutral 2nd is a bit tough then it won't go any higher.. Sorry for a bit of an open ended question, I'll have to get my local mechanic to look at it but a heads up might be handy... Many Thanks AJ |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by Dave on 03/28/13 at 02:47:26 The first thing I would check is the lubrication and movement of the external shifter and linkage. |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by Cavi Mike on 03/28/13 at 03:44:27 Can't diagnose or fix something like that without taking the engine apart. |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by 23Skidoo on 03/28/13 at 04:07:33 417A7760717D66607B737E61120 wrote:
Will do, that did dawn on me as well... Quote:
I know mate, to many factors... I'll have a better look after work if I can limp home in 2nd.... |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by WD on 03/28/13 at 07:17:47 I'd lay even money that your shift linkage bent. Really common failure on Savages, the factory part is barely worthy of being classed as pot metal. If that is all that happened, you can unscrew the rod, straighten it, and when you go to reassemble the unit, sleeve it with a piece of thick wall tubing. |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by verslagen1 on 03/28/13 at 08:30:22 5476617E5A7E7C72170 wrote:
Mr stealership intern? Get down on your hands and knees and eyeball the thing. The rod and threads should be straight. And knicks or bends and the rod will break sooner or later. The the operator on the shaft should be pointing straight down... more or less. Now operate the thing hitches in the getalong will affect shifting. Does it stick or bind? adjust lube or bend |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by Boofer on 03/28/13 at 11:04:49 I would get someone to sit on the bike and slowly rock it back and forth while I shift with my hand. This can help you feel the notches or lack of notches. It also lets you visually check to see if the shift lever is rotating on the splines without working the shift fork inside. Plus listening can give you a clue as well. Good luck. |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by Trippah on 03/28/13 at 11:15:08 and if you get to only one gear, you will have single single :D...hope it's just the linkage. |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/28/13 at 13:33:42 Sounds a bit weird but when in 1st the lever feels almost if it's dropped a little. Which is exactly how it would feel if the shifter rod looks like a rainbow., WD nailed it, problem and solution |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by rfw2003 on 03/28/13 at 14:18:08 I had the same problem shortly after I put my fwd controls on. Now why did I have the issue you ask? I forgot to lube the shifter mount point and also because of this the shifter was harder to push and I bent my shifter rod. So the solution was straightening the rod and lubing the post that the shifter is mounted on. R.F. |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by newb_Jack on 04/03/13 at 08:44:21 I just had this happen to me as well. Bent the shift rod. I can see that it has "rainbowed". Do I need to put the bike on a jack to undo the rod, in order to bend it straight? Or can I just unscrew the rod with a wrench while the bike is on its side stand? |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by oldNslow on 04/03/13 at 09:06:33 3932303836373E26203A30530 wrote:
You can do it with the bike on the side stand. Be aware that one end of the rod has right hand threads, the other end left hand. Take the shift lever off the splined shaft that comes out of engine case, loosen the locknuts at each end of the rod and unscrew it. After you get it straight, and back on. you can spin the rod in one direction or the other to adjust the hieght of the shifter to your liking before you tighten the locknuts. |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by rfw2003 on 04/03/13 at 09:23:55 Soon I will be making beefier sifter rods out of SS 1/4" round for those of you that want the shiny rods and mild steel for those of you that want to paint your rods to match the color of your bikes. I will update in the market place when I have them available. I will have them in stock length and also will make them to what ever length you need. R.F. |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by newb_Jack on 04/03/13 at 09:32:59 0836373B2935345A0 wrote:
Excellent. Thank you! :) |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by srinath on 04/03/13 at 17:07:07 Yea I've received a savage with a bent shift linkage ... wont get out of 2nd the guy said. Yea it wont, cos it was hitting the foot peg 1/2 way in its travel if I recall. You may have to make the right part ... use a thicker rod not the dinky original size and cut the right dia and pitch threads in it ... then paint it or otherwise make sure it doesn't corrorde @ the threads so you can adjust it without getting the threads weaker ... Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by rfw2003 on 04/03/13 at 17:34:01 4342595E514458300 wrote:
That's the plan when I start making them Srinath, both in Stainless and Mild Steel for those that want to paint them. I will use beefy 1/4" stock for making them. My lathe will do both right and left hand threads, so the threading won't be an issue for me on making them. R.F. |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by WD on 04/04/13 at 09:50:16 Don't waste time on mild steel. It is a critical enough part to use stainless or marine grade high tensile silicon bronze. Neither is any harder to paint than mild steel. Even 6061-T6 would be 100x better than the stock piece. |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by rfw2003 on 04/04/13 at 11:06:01 4F5C180 wrote:
Thanks for the advise. I will ditch the idea of the mild steel for those that want to paint then. I was also just looking at my conversion tables and seems I was thinking wrong on size anyways, I need to use either 5/16" or 3/8" stock as 1/4" is basically the same size as the stock rod to begin with. although with it being SS it would be much stiffer but better safe then sorry so I should make the step up to the larger stock. As for the aluminum wouldn't that be just as likely to bend as the stock rod, even with it being a bigger diameter rod? R.F. |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by Dave on 04/04/13 at 11:27:45 When I built the rear brake rod for my Cafe'convsion I first used 1/4" stainless and cut 6mm threads on it. The rod had too much flex at the offset bends that are needed to clear the muffler. The next rod I used was 5/16" stainless and it stiffened things up quit a bit without looking too big. I believe the 5/16" would be just fine. |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by rfw2003 on 04/04/13 at 11:38:45 6C575A4D5C504B4D565E534C3F0 wrote:
Thanks Dave, 5/16" will be my target for the first batch of rods then. R.F. |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by WD on 04/04/13 at 12:34:01 6061-T6 is high grade. Boat and helicopter grade high grade. I worked at an aluminum foundry/mill years ago. Bending 5/16" solid stock would take more leverage than the shift lever could generate. If you want indestructible, you're talking 52100 steel. Industrial roller/ball bearing material, but it's a nightmare to work with. Heat it wrong and it explodes. Weld on it without w/o annealing it, it explodes. 01 tool steel would be ideal, easily workable like cold rolled mild steel, but has an extremely high nickle content for corrosion resistance. Don't expect good results if the rods you can source are 440C stainless, it's pretty soft. If you can find some 416 stock, it would be similar to 01, with even better corrosion resistance. I play around with materials a lot, have a full traditional smithy on the farm... |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by rfw2003 on 04/04/13 at 13:00:04 485B1F0 wrote:
The steel place I use can get me just about anything I want. I was considering using 316 marine grade stainless for the rods, but after looking up 416 I just might consider it as it has better machineability with similar corrosion resistance. I will also consider doing the aluminum ones for those that want them in aluminum. The machine I have is very similar to the Smithy unit, but has higher spindle speeds available at the lathe part of the machine. When I was searching for my machine I also considered the Smithy unit as well. R.F. |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by srinath on 04/04/13 at 13:51:08 If you're making them ... suggest you dont use a solid rod - I'd use a pair of allen head bolts @ the 2 ends and a bit of pipe connecting them all welded together or something like crimped and welded or something like that. Pipe is stiffer than solid rod. 6061 Aluminum - with anything you have to tap the weakest point is where the threads start - that thread dia @ the ends is so small you'd easily have a situation if you're unlucky that it will end up breaking at that spot. With a bolt in a pipe, you'd weld to the bolt head, so you're welding a thick strong location. Not tapping and stressing a thin location. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by WD on 04/04/13 at 13:52:15 I didn't mean the machine called smithy... coal forges and anvils. Bad phrasing on my part. Most of my shop equipment is ancient. |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by rfw2003 on 04/04/13 at 13:54:43 1300440 wrote:
ahhh ok gotcha now I just wish they made more machines in the U.S. still. Even what used to be a good machine the Southbends are now made in china :( Most of the older U.S. machines don't do metric threading jobs to well so that's why I went with a newer machine, just sucks that there aren't any good U.S. made stuff out there anymore. R.F. |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by rfw2003 on 04/04/13 at 14:53:45 3C3D26212E3B274F0 wrote:
On both materials I would do a slight taper for the transition from the threaded are to the solid rod area, to relieve the sudden weak area from the cut threads. Even with machining the same size threads on a piece of bigger stock will make the whole part stronger as a whole, since the main issue with the shift rod is not breakage of the threads, but bending of the rod itself because it is to small in diameter for the job that it is supposed to be doing. I also have plans for redoing the whole shift rod linkage period to a much better setup, but to do that I will need a spare set of levers both front and engine case side to do this with. My plans are to make them easier to maintain the lubrication on them plus make the shift linkage smoother at the same time. I can't do anything about the smoothness of the gear box itself, but I can make the shift linkage pretty much bulletproof. R.F. |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by Dave on 04/04/13 at 18:54:04 I think this thread has been hijacked...........Where is the original fellow with the shifting problem? |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by rfw2003 on 04/04/13 at 19:10:51 Sorry, I'll refrain from further posts about it in this thread. :-? |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by Dave on 04/05/13 at 02:52:13 6E7A6B2E2C2C2F1C0 wrote:
No problem....we were just overthinking this a bit. The stock rod works just fine for most of the bikes - and the stock rod appears to be under 6mm in size..... Send me your address in a PM and I will maiil you some stainless rod I have left over from making the rear brake rod. Let me konw the approximate lenght to cut it in so I can put it in a smaller package.....I don't have a stock rod to measure for length. |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by srinath on 04/05/13 at 10:05:51 3F2B3A7F7D7D7E4D0 wrote:
On both materials I would do a slight taper for the transition from the threaded are to the solid rod area, to relieve the sudden weak area from the cut threads. Even with machining the same size threads on a piece of bigger stock will make the whole part stronger as a whole, since the main issue with the shift rod is not breakage of the threads, but bending of the rod itself because it is to small in diameter for the job that it is supposed to be doing. I also have plans for redoing the whole shift rod linkage period to a much better setup, but to do that I will need a spare set of levers both front and engine case side to do this with. My plans are to make them easier to maintain the lubrication on them plus make the shift linkage smoother at the same time. I can't do anything about the smoothness of the gear box itself, but I can make the shift linkage pretty much bulletproof. R.F. [/quote] Actually there may be a way to make this cheaper and better. See machining is $$$, cutting threads is even more so, labor intensive, arm breaking work not to mention failure prone ... so your best bet is to use bolts in the ends. You can get those inexpensive and they can be hard as a rock, and if you break those in use, the end use can replace it cheap. The trick is to make it so it wont spin around when you're trying to install and adjust it. My thought is - you get the bolts with allen heads in a good hard material. Get the same temper steel tube that fits tight on the bolt head. Drill them both side ways with a small size drill, like 1/16th or 3/32. Small. Then put in a tension pin. You're done. If they fail in regular use, the end user can get em out, pull the tension pin and replace the bolt. Tapping steel even mild is arm breaking work, hardened - you're gonna need a few 1000 in tools. Acorn dies and possibly a serious machine made for tapping. Aluminum is better, but still will take up a lot of your time, and at the end be non user serviceable. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by Charon on 04/05/13 at 16:48:52 Whole thing sounds like overkill to me. Make the rod stronger, and something else will bend or break when it is forced. Just get another rod from the dealership, and quit abusing it by trying to force a shift. It'll last a long time. |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by oldNslow on 04/05/13 at 18:06:23 5B70796A7776180 wrote:
I suspect the the most common cause of a bent shift rod is a "Crap ! I forgot to put the sidestand down !!" episode. I think the shift lever is pretty much the first thing that's going to hit the deck, and the rod is the weak link. Don't do that and the stock part, wimpy as it is, is likely to be all right. |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by newb_Jack on 04/07/13 at 08:20:51 I bent mine trying to force a shift into first. You know, like a jerk. I was trying to bend the rod straight and that didn't work all that well, but while I did this I ended up misplacing (or accidentally kicking) the screw that tightens the shift rod to the shaft that comes out of the engine case. Does anyone know what kind/size of screw I need to get to replace it? I know it took a 10mm socket, but am unfamiliar with screw sizing/specs. |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by Charon on 04/07/13 at 08:26:12 Easiest way would be to take the shift rod to your local Ace Hardware, and find a screw/bolt that fits it. |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by oldNslow on 04/07/13 at 09:28:06 3C37353D33323B23253F35560 wrote:
You can get a new shift rod from this place for about eight bucks (plus shipping) They'll also sell you the bolt, but like Charon said finding one at a hardware or auto parts place near you should be no problem. Be aware that there are two different thread pitches used on metric fasteners. I can't remember which one is used on Asian stuff. http://www.bikebandit.com/2006-suzuki-boulevard-s40-ls650/o/m147605#sch512178 |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by WD on 04/07/13 at 13:38:56 Both 1.0 and 1.25 thread pitch, on the same vehicles. Doesn't matter if it is a car, truck, motorcycle, lawnmower, whatever. We're playing the hardware mix and match game with 2 Suzuki bikes, 2 old Honda bikes and a Subaru. And, one of my trucks has 4 different thread pitches used on its hardware, sae fine, sae coarse, m-1.0 and m-1.25. Canadian built USA market Ford Ranger. >:( |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by Dave on 04/07/13 at 13:39:10 1F343D2E33325C0 wrote:
I can tell you that my local Ace Hardware Store won't carry a 6.25" long rod with a 6mm right hand thread on one end and a 6mm left hand thread on the other! |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by oldNslow on 04/07/13 at 14:13:04 4D767B6C7D716A6C777F726D1E0 wrote:
I can tell you that my local Ace Hardware Store won't carry a 6.25" long rod with a 6mm right hand thread on one end and a 6mm left hand thread on the other![/quote] I think he's looking for the pinch bolt that holds the lever on the shaft. |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by rfw2003 on 04/07/13 at 14:15:49 7B4544485A4647290 wrote:
I can tell you that my local Ace Hardware Store won't carry a 6.25" long rod with a 6mm right hand thread on one end and a 6mm left hand thread on the other![/quote] I think he's looking for the pinch bolt that holds the lever on the shaft. [/quote] At least around here that left hand thread nut is a hard one to find. When I start making the shift rods I'll most likely have to order those especially since I'm wanting to keep it all Stainless steel. R.F. |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by Oldfeller on 04/07/13 at 14:25:52 PM Routy and EdL, they likely have some LH nuts on hand. |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by Dave on 04/07/13 at 17:44:30 4C72737F6D71701E0 wrote:
I can tell you that my local Ace Hardware Store won't carry a 6.25" long rod with a 6mm right hand thread on one end and a 6mm left hand thread on the other![/quote] Ooops....I jumped in when we started talking about a differnet subject. Sorry! :o I think he's looking for the pinch bolt that holds the lever on the shaft. [/quote] |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by newb_Jack on 04/07/13 at 20:14:01 0B3534382A3637590 wrote:
You can get a new shift rod from this place for about eight bucks (plus shipping) They'll also sell you the bolt, but like Charon said finding one at a hardware or auto parts place near you should be no problem. Be aware that there are two different thread pitches used on metric fasteners. I can't remember which one is used on Asian stuff. http://www.bikebandit.com/2006-suzuki-boulevard-s40-ls650/o/m147605#sch512178[/quote] Nice! I'm going to do this and get a new rod that is totally straight and just remember to take it easy on it when shifting. Thank you very much for the link! :) 7947464A5844452B0 wrote:
I can tell you that my local Ace Hardware Store won't carry a 6.25" long rod with a 6mm right hand thread on one end and a 6mm left hand thread on the other![/quote] I think he's looking for the pinch bolt that holds the lever on the shaft. [/quote] That is correct. I'm going to order one along with a new shift rod from BikeBandit. Thanks guys! :) |
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Title: Re: Lost 3rd 4th and 5th Gear. Post by Dave on 04/08/13 at 03:17:29 Fastenal has the left hand thread nuts. http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/fasteners/nuts/hex-nuts/_/Navigation?term=&termca=&termpx=&sortby=webrank&sortdir=descending&searchmode=productSearch&rfqXref=&rfqKeyword=&rfqId=&rfqLineId=&r=~|categoryl1:"600000 Fasteners"|~ ~|categoryl2:"600072 Nuts"|~ ~|categoryl3:"608621 Hex Nuts"|~ ~|attrdiameter:120500|~ ~|sattr02:^Steel$|~ ~|sattr04:^Zinc$|~ ~|sattr07:^"Hex Nut - Left Hand"$|~ |
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